Crossbows - Any reason to use over bows?

[Aranticus]

Propably true I give you that. But in every VOD I've run, it's been a WF TANK

By suggesting Rogues, are you reffering to pure Rogues? WF Rogues? I typically dont see pure WF Rogues "out there" and if you are suggesting "possible" for a non WF rogue, you are adding to the burden of the healers who have to deal with Suul's curse.

And please note that I am not targeting you for ignorance as you did to me.

no what you wrote is absolutely ignorant. there are reasons why people are using wf tanks. first, they are plentiful. second, they are not affected by cursed wounds through repair spells. third, the party cannot find an AC tank. last but not least, not many clerics like to run vod

i have 3 toons which tank suulomades, all 3 of them hit 70+ AC meaning suulomades only hits me on a 20 compared to a wf tank that is hit so very often. the curse doesnt hit me as often as it would a hp tank that gets hit all the time (cept when suulo rolls 1). just today i tanked suulo on my ranger/monk. he got cursed less than 10x but the amount of cost savings for the party is more than what a wf tank would require

[Aranticus]

?? yours didn't ever render correctly??? !!!!

Again though Finesse builds depend on dex for damage... they are fail?

finesse builds depend on dex for attack bonuses

finesse builds still depend on str for damage bonuses

[Angelus_dead]

You've already said that per bolt/swing, I do more damage than a melee.

No, I didn't say anything that generic. I said that in that scenario your normal Sneak Attack was a little higher damage than that of a melee Rogue, which is true if you have rare bolts. But melee crits more, which is a moderate advantage for a Rogue, and pretty important for every other melee class.

I'll check on the attack rate since it seems right now I can get 3 bolts off in what seems like a second - of course still have to contend with cooldown/reload.

Yes, and melee gets more than 3 attacks per second, with no reloading cooldown.

You are already off topic. The OP asked for an opinion with respect to Bows over Crossbows - which I tried to faithfully HRC's make an argument for - and you attacked it.

No. I corrected a falsehood, and the OP responded by specifically inquiring as to whether ranged is broken.

All due respect, you seem to be ignoring me. I do NOT search for bolts

You made a claim which only makes sense if you searched for bolts.

Well, your unbound armor/weapons, if you so choose to truly mitigate permanent damage, must be address by EXPERT REPAIR and that forces you to travel to particular locations.

Lol what.

Again, if I'm doing around the same damage as a melee but don't need heals as often, how am I dependant?

You're not doing the same damage as a melee. You're also not contributing the same debuffs as a melee.

And here are other benefits… I do NOT need a high STR to pull this off nor does my CON really need to be über. I can instead put more into DEX not only for AC and REFLEX but also for attack damage. Plus I have the benefit of being able to invest in INT, not only for the added skill points but also because I can take down all traps / open every chest on elite. And will all of the above, especially with respect to INT and my ability to max out skills, can max UMD for that obvious benefit.

Those are funny looking benefits. Rogues have 8 skillpoints per level, and DDO barely even has 8 good skills. A high-int rogue is nothing to brag about, especially if you don't have Assassinate.

I really have difficulty in your argument… (In your own words) per bolt, I do MORE damage than a rapier swing

No. In some situations you do more damage than some rapier hits. If you had a Great Crossbow your per-hit damage would be even higher, and yet your overall damage would be even lower.

[Zaal]

You have an 8 strength, so you wouldn't get as much out of it as a regular character would. Starting ability scores cannot be respecced at this time, so it may feel like you're stuck with the choice to dump strength.

But it's still possible you'd make a bigger contribution with Weapon Finesse and TWF, especially considering the incoming buff to Crippling Strike.

Ahh you've gone back to my earlier posts - good for you!

I dunno if I'll respect this toon in that way - Per my earier posts that you may have missed, I've already another Rogue based on Leesa 3.0 Tempest Rogue Extrodanaire! build and INHO, it's a really tight build. However still not sure how mod 9 will play with the one level of Monk the build called for.

If I DO respec my HRC Rogue, I'll probably add some more CHA and if pressed maybe a bump of STR only to deal with encomberance issue.

[Aranticus]

Ahh you've gone back to my earlier posts - good for you!

I dunno if I'll respect this toon in that way - Per my earier posts that you may have missed, I've already another Rogue based on Leesa 3.0 Tempest Rogue Extrodanaire! build and INHO, it's a really tight build. However still not sure how mod 9 will play with the one level of Monk the build called for.

If I DO respec my HRC Rogue, I'll probably add some more CHA and if pressed maybe a bump of STR only to deal with encomberance issue.

rogues dun need more cha to get a decent umd. at present there are sufficient stuff to allow a rogue to hit 40 umd easily. heck even my pure L16 fighter could muster a 30 umd

[Zaal]

no what you wrote is absolutely ignorant. there are reasons why people are using wf tanks. first, they are plentiful. second, they are not affected by cursed wounds through repair spells. third, the party cannot find an AC tank. last but not least, not many clerics like to run vod

i have 3 toons which tank suulomades, all 3 of them hit 70+ AC meaning suulomades only hits me on a 20 compared to a wf tank that is hit so very often. the curse doesnt hit me as often as it would a hp tank that gets hit all the time (cept when suulo rolls 1). just today i tanked suulo on my ranger/monk. he got cursed less than 10x but the amount of cost savings for the party is more than what a wf tank would require

What ever you may think of me or my posts , your continued use of the word "ignorant" is abusive. Nothing in my post to which you are referring suggests igonance.

Your choice of course to believe what you will about preferences with respect to party choice of the main tank in VOD. But the bottom line is that WF are the preferred and as such, it's not fair to suggest that a Rogue go in an solo Suul

Are any of your 3 toons Rogues? Pure Rogues? Fleshy Rogues? And if so, have you outfitted said Rogue with an appropriate Heavy Repeater , the proper bolts, and the feats to make it work?

Perhaps you don't believe it but, my HRC has taken the agro from the main tank. Sure that suggests that , perhaps the main tank was improperly outftted but in the same breath, a Rapier wielding Rouge could have done the same. But because I could suggests that I can stand toe to toe next to them.

finesse builds depend on dex for attack bonuses

finesse builds still depend on str for damage bonuses

Thanks for the schooling.. I didn't realize that. But that said, you are adding strength to my argument since my Repeater build has only to focus on DEX and still do damage comparable to a STR/DEX based Rogue who weilds Rapiers.

[Zaal]

rogues dun need more cha to get a decent umd. at present there are sufficient stuff to allow a rogue to hit 40 umd easily. heck even my pure L16 fighter could muster a 30 umd

And at level 20? And per your note, you didn't mention what you consider a decent base CHA nor do I imagine do you know what mine is (unless you did the Angelus_dead thing by checking! ) so not sure how you can suggest to me that my CHA for UMD is high enough.

And a figher struggling to get 30 umd with a buffs and switching out gear isn't necessarily ideal. It gives him a 50% change to HEAL - I suppose that's respectable but, in party I would suspect him trying to get that one things are really going bad and at higher levels and the debuffing that goes on with existing spells and Mordenkainen's Disjunction in the mix, not sure that a UMD based on "help" is really going to matter.

[Velexia]

Greetings everyone!

I started to look into ranged weapons and I have very very hard to see a reason why I should use a crossbow over a longbow. The sole reason behind this is that Bow Strenght is way to much useful so I assume I would do less damage with a crossbow then with a longbow even though the base damage is lower on the longbows. And this is not even counting in that elves get enhancements that adds to longbow damage and attack.

So now I need your input cause I may fail to see the the complete picture of this issue.

Looking forward to you replies!

Best Regards!

/Ely

It goes beyond that. Crossbows are inferior in speed as well. They are good until about level 4. After level 4, the only (sane) crossbow users are those who use heavy repeaters.

[Angelus_dead]

Nothing in my post to which you are referring suggests igonance.

No, there are multiple points where it appears you are unaware of how DDO combat works, what has been written in this thread, or even what you have written in this thread.

For example, to write this suggests ignorance of the speed and power of TWF melee combat:

Interesting you point out that I'll do a little less damage with a rapier than say a HRC while the rapier has a faster attack (perhaps it's just me but, seem you just had a realization like up close with a HRC i can still get sneak attack damage??). Can you quantify that? What's the ratio?

And to write this makes it look like you've forgotten that you claimed a repeater rogue is highly effective:

Again who is denying or concealing that there are problems?

[Zaal]

No, I didn't say anything that generic. I said that in that scenario your normal Sneak Attack was a little higher damage than that of a melee Rogue, which is true if you have rare bolts. But melee crits more, which is a moderate advantage for a Rogue, and pretty important for every other melee class.

Again I don't use "rare" bolts and again you are still suggesting that I do more damage per attack.

Yes, and melee gets more than 3 attacks per second, with

no reloading cooldown.

If a melee (single or dual wielding?) gets more than 3 swings a second and doesn't suffer a cool down, is 40% really the right answer? Where are you getting your numbers? Still would like to see the empirical proof on this - a dev post would be nice.

Greetings everyone!

I started to look into ranged weapons and I have very very hard to see a reason why I should use a crossbow over a longbow. The sole reason behind this is that Bow Strength is way to much useful so I assume I would do less damage with a crossbow then with a longbow even though the base damage is lower on the longbows. And this is not even counting in that elves get enhancements that adds to longbow damage and attack.

So now I need your input cause I may fail to see the the complete picture of this issue.

Looking forward to you replies!

Best Regards!

/Ely

No. I corrected a falsehood, and the OP responded by specifically inquiring as to whether ranged is broken.

There is no falsehood. Your attack on crossbows began BEFORE the OP made any such reply. Therefore, you did jump off target.

You made a claim which only makes sense if you searched for bolts.

I don't have to "search" for bolts to effectively transmute all of my HRC's.

Lol what.

Not sure where you see humor if you expect to prevent perm damage to non-bound equipment - and pay a premium to do so in addition the time it takes to get to the appropriate vendor.[/quote]

You're not doing the same damage as a melee. You're also not contributing the same debuffs as a melee.

I don't expect to be and unless your melee Rogue is in a party of comparably outfitted "sneak attack" Rogues, neither will he. And I believe that no matter how much you try to convince others to build their toons this way so that perhaps every melee does this, the devs will nerf something to make this approach unrealistic and you’ll just have another issue to complain about.

Those are funny looking benefits. Rogues have 8 skillpoints per level, and DDO barely even has 8 good skills. A high-int rogue is nothing to brag about, especially if you don't have Assassinate.

Being able to effectively carry out all of the require Rogue functions at every level and difficulty while still holding my own in combat AND providing backup healing/repairing as needed certainly seems beneficial to me - and if you did your homework (which I believe you did), you'd also know that my HRC Rouge is also an Assassin.

No. In some situations you do more damage than some rapier hits. If you had a Great Crossbow your per-hit damage would be even higher, and yet your overall damage would be even lower.

Yup with you there that overall damage will be lower with a Great Crossbow. But with respect to some, with the correct HRC per the occasion, some becomes most. I've had perhaps 3 years to accumulate a variety and have also crafted a greensteel. I don't expect a new player to be in that position but per this thread on whole, it's prob safe to say that HRC prices are relatively affordable since there are those who constantly bash their overall effectiveness.

[Zaal]

5/1 philosophy

are you referring to:

I think that way of looking at things is a loser mentality, whether we're talking about a game or in life.

[Angelus_dead]

There is no falsehood. Your attack on crossbows began BEFORE the OP made any such reply. Therefore, you did jump off target.

Wrong.

The initial question had been longbow vs crossbow. You decided to talk about repeaters, which was a different topic. Then you further decided to claim that ranged specialization can be a highly effective character choice, which is not just a different topic, but also misinformation.

Not sure where you see humor if you expect to prevent perm damage to non-bound equipment - and pay a premium to do so in addition the time it takes to get to the appropriate vendor.

The humor comes from watching someone claim that item damage is a downside to melee combat, because it demonstrates severely skewed priorities. (In addition, it is untrue that Jadine Forgemaiden prevents permanent damage).

Being able to effectively carry out all of the require Rogue functions at every level and difficulty while still holding my own in combat AND providing backup healing/repairing as needed certainly seems beneficial to me

A repeater rogue cannot "hold his own" in combat.

and if you did your homework (which I believe you did), you'd also know that my HRC Rouge is also an Assassin.

Um, can you Assassinate with a ranged attack?

[Aranticus]

let me point out the things you said so far

The Repeating Crossbow (RC) requires the use of a feat.

DEX is importnat here both for TO HIT and for DAMAGE so, unlike bows, STR is not an issue here... I have a build running around with a base 8 STR and wields an array of Heavy RC's and as far as I am concerned is quite effective - especially with IMPROVED CRIT PIECE feat and an array of BURST / BANE repeaters. I have this HOLY BURST of EVIL OUTSIDER BANE hrc that tears our shroud pit fiend to bitz. All my damage is RED and I can continue to do gamage when the clerics are out of mana.

1. dex does not affect the damage of a HRC. the only way for it to affect damage is when your dex bonus is so slow that you keep missing. all ranged weapons use imp crit: range not imp crit: pierce to expand the crit range

A bow's damamge comes from your strength

str bonus is only added to a bow's damage if you have the bow strength feat which currently ranger will have and in nex mod, fighters can train it

[Interesting you point out that I'll do a little less damage with a rapier than say a HRC while the rapier has a faster attack (perhaps it's just me but, seem you just had a realization like up close with a HRC i can still get sneak attack damage??). Can you quantify that? What's the ratio? And if there’s a tangible DPS benefit towards melee, what do you consider enough of a percentage to swing either way?

look at cforce's attack speed. a RC with all the feats will give 111 attack animations per min. gtwf gives 87 main hand attacks and 87 off hand. since a rogue's main dps option come from SA. thats 111 SA for RC vs 194 SA for gtwf. thats -3320 damage for a regular rogue with max rogue SA enhancement in 1 min

Goodness, Rogues don't tank suulomades.

And no, my Rogue is NOT better off spending feats on melee

you dun need a particular class to tank suulomades, if you can deal damage, have intimidate and 70+ AC, you can do it. a good rogue fits as well. a good rogue is better off spending feats for melee. lets see, acrobat II = alacrity with staff, assassinate = assassinate with melee weapon, in next mod, vorpal with SA

I do more damage than a melee.

And here are other benefits… I do NOT need a high STR to pull this off nor does my CON really need to be über. I can instead put more into DEX not only for AC and REFLEX but also for attack damage. Plus I have the benefit of being able to invest in INT, not only for the added skill points but also because I can take down all traps / open every chest on elite. And will all of the above, especially with respect to INT and my ability to max out skills, can max UMD for that obvious benefit.

as mentioned by A_D, rogues have enough skill points to max out all the important skills. anything more is useful for assassinate

Propably true I give you that. But in every VOD I've run, it's been a WF TANK

By suggesting Rogues, are you reffering to pure Rogues? WF Rogues? I typically dont see pure WF Rogues "out there" and if you are suggesting "possible" for a non WF rogue, you are adding to the burden of the healers who have to deal with Suul's curse.

And please note that I am not targeting you for ignorance as you did to me.

as mentioned, you dun need a wf rogue or a splash rogue to tank suulomades

?? yours didn't ever render correctly??? !!!!

Again though Finesse builds depend on dex for damage... they are fail?

What ever you may think of me or my posts , your continued use of the word "ignorant" is abusive. Nothing in my post to which you are referring suggests igonance.

Your choice of course to believe what you will about preferences with respect to party choice of the main tank in VOD. But the bottom line is that WF are the preferred and as such, it's not fair to suggest that a Rogue go in an solo Suul

Are any of your 3 toons Rogues? Pure Rogues? Fleshy Rogues? And if so, have you outfitted said Rogue with an appropriate Heavy Repeater , the proper bolts, and the feats to make it work?

Perhaps you don't believe it but, my HRC has taken the agro from the main tank. Sure that suggests that , perhaps the main tank was improperly outftted but in the same breath, a Rapier wielding Rouge could have done the same. But because I could suggests that I can stand toe to toe next to them.


Thanks for the schooling.. I didn't realize that. But that said, you are adding strength to my argument since my Repeater build has only to focus on DEX and still do damage comparable to a STR/DEX based Rogue who weilds Rapiers.

on khyber, AC tanking > wf tanking > hp tanking for vod. my rogue is not fully equipped to tank suulomades, once i get the raiments i will be able to do so

when my rogue was low level, repeaters is his choice of weapon due to the rapid rof and the ineffectiveness of twf. past L10, i respec him to twf to which he is even more effective

by your statements, it tells me that you do not understand the agro mechanics employed in ddo

[Zaal]

Nothing in my post to which you are referring suggests igonance.

No, there are multiple points where it appears you are unaware of how DDO combat works, what has been written in this thread, or even what you have written in this thread.

You are reaching here. The comment was made in response to a particular post, placing you are out of context. If you wish to attack, please be specific regards where you see an issue rather than taking a comment out of context when my quote EXPLICITY referred to a particular post.

For example, to write this suggests ignorance of the speed and power of TWF melee combat:

No ignorance here. Per my earlier responses, I also run a TWF Rogue/Ranger/Monk and can plainly see the benefit.

And to write this makes it look like you've forgotten that you claimed a repeater rogue is highly effective:

Again who is denying or concealing that there are problems?

Nothing to forget here. I still believe that my HRC Rogue is highly effective not only in the DPS department but also in all other "Roguish" departments.

Further, I also believe that you didn't realize until this thread, a HRC Rogue does in fact get sneak damage when up close and personal and that fact alone undermines your entire argument since in fact, a HRC Rogue can deal out serious damage. And as my Pure HRC Rogue increased in level, so to will his sneak attack bonus.

[Angelus_dead]

Are any of your 3 toons Rogues? Pure Rogues? Fleshy Rogues? And if so, have you outfitted said Rogue with an appropriate Heavy Repeater , the proper bolts, and the feats to make it work?

I've tried that. My reaction was "Yuck, why did I waste time on this character?"

Then I said "ug" a lot:
Ug, no strength bonus.
Ug, no Power Attack.
Ug, slower attacks.
Ug, fewer crits.
Ug, less AC and even less dex.
Ug, the guys will hate me if I kite.
Ug, no Crippling Strike.
Ug, no Bp of Destruction.
Ug, now I have to remember to run to Deneith for bolts.

(I might have also complained about no Assassinate, but I don't consider that too important as a feature)

The conclusion was: "I could've been a useful character, but instead I'm a repeater rogue. WTB 7 dragonshards!"

[Aranticus]

And at level 20? And per your note, you didn't mention what you consider a decent base CHA nor do I imagine do you know what mine is (unless you did the Angelus_dead thing by checking! ) so not sure how you can suggest to me that my CHA for UMD is high enough.

And a figher struggling to get 30 umd with a buffs and switching out gear isn't necessarily ideal. It gives him a 50% change to HEAL - I suppose that's respectable but, in party I would suspect him trying to get that one things are really going bad and at higher levels and the debuffing that goes on with existing spells and Mordenkainen's Disjunction in the mix, not sure that a UMD based on "help" is really going to matter.

ranks 19
cartouche 3 (5 if you use titan glove)
GH 4
shroud skill 6
hogf 2
total 34 (36)

8 base cha with +2 tome + 6 cha item = 16 = +3. chip in a +2 skill boost (1 AP), total = 39 (41)

my fighter doesnt need the umd for self heal and such, but it helps when i need to top up my hp quick ie healing up with bees after doggies are charmed in hound, or for porting around or using shield wands. more importantly, none of the items in use are for critical items as i am using the same items to get my intimidate up to 60s

[Angelus_dead]

Further, I also believe that you didn't realize until this thread, a HRC Rogue does in fact get sneak damage

And that is a completely senseless thing to believe, as it is totally detached from all apparent reality.

in fact, a HRC Rogue can deal out serious damage.

No, they cannot. That's what it comes down to: You have made an incorrect observation about how powerful an attack style is.

[Aranticus]

Further, I also believe that you didn't realize until this thread, a HRC Rogue does in fact get sneak damage when up close and personal and that fact alone undermines your entire argument since in fact, a HRC Rogue can deal out serious damage. And as my Pure HRC Rogue increased in level, so to will his sneak attack bonus.

you are right that there can be ranged SA but melee = 100% SA but if your are ranging, there is a limited radius that the target has to be within in order for SA to apply. in shroud 5, this limitation is very evident as your SA radius < harry attack radius

[Aranticus]

(I might have also complained about no Assassinate, but I don't consider that too important as a feature)

ugh! no WotA III vorpal strike

[Arkat]

a simple challenge to you, tank suulomades using ranged weapons

Gilgamesh (my WF Hvy Repeater toon) has...twice. Never lost agro either. In fact, after both times I did it, I got people sending me tells asking about it as well as questions in voice chat.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, he used a Lightning II Heavy Repeater with Silver Bolts.