Eladrin's Monk

[BlackRage]

IYou also lose a significant amount of base damage dice -- 1d8 vs. 3d6 is a net -6, which brings the Kensai delta down to a +6 per-punch-ish delta.

Quickly running the numbers back in the spreadsheet, it looks like the Kensai 12/Monk 7/Rogue 1 would get more DPS -- 438 was the number I came up with for 0% Fort/no Transmuting, which represents about 10% more than Eladrin's Monk. And, heck -- even with the net -5 AC, it's still *good* AC.

Something else to consider is that Monk8 would get a damage die upgrade to 1d10 - not sure if that is better than the SA though...

[cforce]

Can I really be a "jonnie" if im thinking the same thing

Yes -- you're just going to need to use a different splash class. Your one-level-splash will be....<spinning Wheel of Class Selection>...ooh, Druid. Tough break!

[Thanimal]

You would have to splash some spike into that mix, though.

Guilty as charged. But I never really understood what exactly a "pure" Johnny was anyhow. Any random collection of cards could be considered creative. Creative and effective is the only bar I can think of for Johnny success.

Which perhaps just proves that I'm part Spike...

[Borror0]

Guilty as charged. But I never really understood what exactly a "pure" Johnny was anyhow. Any random collection of cards could be considered creative. Creative and effective is the only bar I can think of for Johnny success.

Well, the Timmy/Johnny/Spike split is a war between priority. The more "win"-driven you are, the closer you are to Spike. The more "awesome" moments-driven you are, the closer to are to Timmy. And, the more "something new"-driven you are, the closer you are to Johnny.

The key here is that you want to "prove the unwashed masses wrong" which imply an important focus on being the best or at least very good at something.

A pure Johnny would be fine with being different and effective enough to work at time. He care not what the masses think.

/end off-topic

[Thanimal]

Something else to consider is that Monk8 would get a damage die upgrade to 1d10 - not sure if that is better than the SA though...

Might or might not be, of course, depending on the situation. But actually I think the real "win" of Rogue 1 is what Goldeneye originally pointed out when he hypothesized that class mix: UMD. I think Kensai II + Monk is fundamentally better with enough UMD to reliably use Wand of Shield (10th), along with all the other "standard" amazing benefits of UMD. Not going to have a phenomenal UMD score here, but the build only has need for Concentration, UMD, and *possibly* Intimidate, so it should be doable.

[Mobeius]

Might or might not be, of course, depending on the situation. But actually I think the real "win" of Rogue 1 is what Goldeneye originally pointed out when he hypothesized that class mix: UMD. I think Kensai II + Monk is fundamentally better with enough UMD to reliably use Wand of Shield (10th), along with all the other "standard" amazing benefits of UMD. Not going to have a phenomenal UMD score here, but the build only has need for Concentration, UMD, and *possibly* Intimidate, so it should be doable.

I can hit a UMD of 30 with my monk and I have no rogue splash, so I would guess that a decent intelligence and starting rogue you could easily have 30+ UMD self buffed. Espcially if you used a feat to get skill focus: UMD and then being Human you get extra skill points to burn and a free feat... if done right UMD would be powerful with any decent build with a rogue splash. Now if you undercut Intelligence and Charisma too much and dont give it any attention then your UMD would be decent.

[bobbryan2]

I can hit a UMD of 30 with my monk and I have no rogue splash, so I would guess that a decent intelligence and starting rogue you could easily have 30+ UMD self buffed. Espcially if you used a feat to get skill focus: UMD and then being Human you get extra skill points to burn and a free feat... if done right UMD would be powerful with any decent build with a rogue splash. Now if you undercut Intelligence and Charisma too much and dont give it any attention then your UMD would be decent.

With an 8 int and charisma... you can still reach the 40 UMD point. Which is really as high as you need it.

[Mobeius]

With an 8 int and charisma... you can still reach the 40 UMD point. Which is really as high as you need it.

Assuming your not Cross Classing, Which is were my 30 comes from my monk. Yes, if you have rogue/bard levels you can easily hit a 40 UMD.

[zealous]

So the thing is, there is no change to monk as a class.

A. The rings will optimally add some 11.75 damage/swing which is kind of massive, might even be over the top.

B. If the damage output of the tierI elemental attacks is proportional to 5 for IV then that's 1.5/swing.

C. Tier I wind stance + unarmed weighing in at 90 apm=>~10% speed increase.

The next 19 monk levels net you 7.5% stance, 7.5 average damage and 3.5 elemental stuff/swing.

Barb get's you some 7damage from str+PA.
Pally some ~7 from DF+DM; add smites, zeal and divine sacrifice.
Fighter get's you 7 damage if you spec for it and some 10-15% speed from boosts.
Ranger get's rams + FE for well in excess of what the monk brings to the table.
Rogue might not cut it against heavy fort but well...SA and all

Even without counting PrCs were left with more or less the same situation as before, monk is on par against heavy fort, noticeably behind against no fort.


The big change is that the rings bring so much to the table that unarmed is potentially vastly superior against heavy fort, for all classes/builds.

And...for all but a few...going unarmed is potentially as potent as khopesh...