Being debuffed, ***...

[NeoSapience]

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but I'm fairly upset atm.

I play a nice monk/wizard build that I've been enjoying greatly, up until now. The whole idea behind the build was to just buff up and destroy things barbarian style.

Well, I went to the necropolis and promptly got myself debuffed, which lead to an immediate and highly aggravating death and has left me with a feeling of utter hopelessness.

I could understand if I was fighting some high level raid boss, but these were just normal level 8 mobs. What the heck. Is it just utterly pointless to use buffs or is this just some rare instance where my build is just worthless?

Please tell me this isn't going to be a regular event, because I'm thinking of just quitting right here and now.

[rimble]

Sorry if this is a bit of a rant, but I'm fairly upset atm.

I play a nice monk/wizard build that I've been enjoying greatly, up until now. The whole idea behind the build was to just buff up and destroy things barbarian style.

Well, I went to the necropolis and promptly got myself debuffed, which lead to an immediate and highly aggravating death and has left me with a feeling of utter hopelessness.

I could understand if I was fighting some high level raid boss, but these were just normal level 8 mobs. What the heck. Is it just utterly pointless to use buffs or is this just some rare instance where my build is just worthless?

Please tell me this isn't going to be a regular event, because I'm thinking of just quitting right here and now.

It's somewhat common, and one of those subtle things that often gets ignored when planning any sort of character that relies heavily on buffs to achieve their goals. It's even worse on a heavy multi-class splash since your buffs will be of a lower caster level, and thus easily dispelled. This is one of the reasons I like builds that have base undispellable scores for everything like Hit, Damage, and AC, and then tack on buffs in subsequent sections. It's easier to tell where they'll end up when the Dispel-bomb, or Beholder hits...

Oh, speaking of which...you'll have lots of fun with Beholders...

I wouldn't say it's a VERY regular event, but get used to avoiding (or suffering through) certain content...

[Visty]

later, gnolls debuff like hell, in shroud part3 youre perma debuffed, beholders everywhere, runes dispell you too, yeah its hard beeing a melee which buffs up himself
around lvl 8 it shouldnt be too common, though already those freaking priests in the bloddy crypt are casting dispell, so, yes, it will happen alot
its to make the game a challange

[BlackSteel]

its a valid strategy for pcs and monsters alike. altho for pcs its normally not worthwhile to dispell a monsters buffs, but it can be worthwhile to get rid of their persistent AoE's like blade barrier or fog.

its not common enough to destroy your build. but there are encounters where spending alot of spell points on buffs can be wasteful. any quest with a beholder has a strong chance of dispelling you, and a small number of other quests have spell casters that like to spam it.

[Aerendil]

Hi, welcome to D&D.

Where you have the ability to buff yourself and debuff your opponents, and... *gasp* they can do the same.

Seriously. This is no different from pretty much any other MMO out there. Buffing / debuffing is a pretty typical aspect. And, as mentioned above, when you fight beholders and the like, you're going to be permanently debuffed.

In my opinion, enemies don't debuff *enough* in DDO.

In pen and paper, a well-timed Dispel Magic, Silence, or Blindness could make or break a battle.

PS - Wiz/Monk? :/

[Grimgore]

Yeah, now when disjunction hits and we start losing more than just buffs, it might be a little worse!

[rimble]

Yeah, now when disjunction hits and we start losing more than just buffs, it might be a little worse!

That's at least a Will save (well, theoretically), which I'm sure his Monk/Wiz will be pretty decent in...but his Caster Level is what is used to resist the Dispel, and that's not so good, nor can it be buffed like your Will save.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

CR8 mobs should have dispell, thats working as it should.

[Zenako]

Ok OP, a bit confused as well. You have a join date of over three years ago? and are just now seeing that mobs can dispel buffs? (I have to assume you are someone who joined at start, left and came back this summer I guess.)

However, the key can be found in your statement about what your expectations were. You wanted to take your hybrid Multiclass character, which has a ton of options available to it, amoung which is to melee buff the hell out itself and take things on "barbarian style". Which you can do.

BUT, while the Barbarian is good with his normal melee attributes and great when buffed, your build requires the buffs to be good/great and will suffer without them. While not a constant happenstance, getting hit with dispels or debuffs does happen, and as others mentioned is why some builders emphasize their stats and abilities in the undispellable range, not with all buffs cooking. So that is the price you pay for the added features of the Hybrid, a certain vulnerability to getting reduced to "normal" when in a fight.

[NeoSapience]

Hi, welcome to D&D.

Where you have the ability to buff yourself and debuff your opponents, and... *gasp* they can do the same.

Seriously. This is no different from pretty much any other MMO out there. Buffing / debuffing is a pretty typical aspect. And, as mentioned above, when you fight beholders and the like, you're going to be permanently debuffed.

In my opinion, enemies don't debuff *enough* in DDO.

In pen and paper, a well-timed Dispel Magic, Silence, or Blindness could make or break a battle.

PS - Wiz/Monk? :/

I've been playing games for over 20 years. I've played every MMO in existence (just about) and I've never had a normal mob debuff everything on my character. I'm assuming this mechanic is common in D&D, unfortunately I don't have much experience with the PnP version. I'm just curious as to why a game would implement such a mechanic. It's utterly pointless for the game to have buffs if the mobs are just going to remove them so easily (and vice versa).

Ok OP, a bit confused as well. You have a join date of over three years ago? and are just now seeing that mobs can dispel buffs? (I have to assume you are someone who joined at start, left and came back this summer I guess.)

Yes, I ran into some issues with the game that put me off initially (deja-vu). I came back after hearing DDO was going F2P. Perhaps my initial judgment should stand and I should find something with more logical game mechanics to play.

[rimble]

I've been playing games for over 20 years. I've played every MMO in existence (just about) and I've never had a normal mob debuff everything on my character. I'm assuming this mechanic is common in D&D, unfortunately I don't have much experience with the PnP version. I'm just curious as to why a game would implement such a mechanic. It's utterly pointless for the game to have buffs if the mobs are just going to remove them so easily (and vice versa).

They're removed easily because you're not a pure Wizard. Your mojo is weak.

It works like this:

They cast Dispel Magic (or Greater Dispel Magic) on you.

For every spell on you they roll 1d20 and add their caster level.

If they get higher than or equal to 11 + your caster level, the spell is Dispelled.

So if you're like 3 Monk/5 Wiz facing a level 8 opponent, they're rolling 1d20 + 8 and only need to get a 16...so they only need to roll an 8.

Of course Beholders just strip your buffs automatically, no rolling necessary.

If you only ever planned to stay 5 Wiz, 'cause you just wanted Haste or something, eventually things will be rolling 1d20 + 20 against a 16...good luck with that...

[Aranticus]

Yes, I ran into some issues with the game that put me off initially (deja-vu). I came back after hearing DDO was going F2P. Perhaps my initial judgment should stand and I should find something with more logical game mechanics to play.

this is a logical course of action for spell casters. if we could debuff the mobs, why not they debuff us? seriously, there is enough spoonfeeding....

[rimble]

this is a logical course of action for spell casters. if we could debuff the mobs, why not they debuff us? seriously, there is enough spoonfeeding....

To be fair, it's not a mechanic that exists in many of the other popular MMORPGs.

It has always been something I kind of disliked about D&D. It's just not fun/nice/fair to give characters treats as they level up, like buff spells, better magic items, and so on...then turn around and negate/rip them away again. But it IS a part of this system, so you gotta account for that.

[Aranticus]

To be fair, it's not a mechanic that exists in many of the other popular MMORPGs.

It has always been something I kind of disliked about D&D. It's just not fun/nice/fair to give characters treats as they level up, like buff spells, better magic items, and so on...then turn around and negate/rip them away again. But it IS a part of this system, so you gotta account for that.

precisely this is what i meant by spoonfeeding. in all the other mmos, the mobs do not debuff the players but allows the players to debuff them. this is a highly illogical (or some my say, poor AI) mechanism.

[Missing_Minds]

I've been playing games for over 20 years. I've played every MMO in existence (just about) and I've never had a normal mob debuff everything on my character. I'm assuming this mechanic is common in D&D, unfortunately I don't have much experience with the PnP version. I'm just curious as to why a game would implement such a mechanic. It's utterly pointless for the game to have buffs if the mobs are just going to remove them so easily (and vice versa).

Yes, I ran into some issues with the game that put me off initially (deja-vu). I came back after hearing DDO was going F2P. Perhaps my initial judgment should stand and I should find something with more logical game mechanics to play.

There is why you are having issues. Should you try the same thing in PnP, I promise you the same end results after a while. sure, the DM would allow you your fun, but you are playing with an Achilles leg and arm, not a heel.

I have always looked at the game as a matter of fair play. If they can I can. If I can they can. Granted, their rate of attack is much less, other wise, we would so be toast. Their casters also have a smaller spell selection than we have, the turn about being no concentration checks and unlimited sp.

Honestly, I'm glad the debuffs happen, because if those casters (ever take on 3 at once?) all shot off damaging spells like fireball or almost worse, searing light... yeah. you REALLY won't like the result.

But I agree with your sentiment that being debuffed does suck.

[Aerendil]

Some recent MMOs I've played :

- EQ = mobs definitely debuff you, either by stripping your buffs or by casting spells or using abilities that hinder or lower your abilities.
- EQ2 = spells that debuff or damage + debuff are definitely there (i.e. a fire spell that deals fire damage and lowers your fire resistance), as well as melee effects that do the same (i.e. piercing attack that lowers your target's melee defenses / resistances)
- DAoC = debuffs exist from other players (i.e. shears) as well as a few enemies
- L2 = same, if memory serves.

Only tried WoW briefly, so can't comment on that, but I wouldn't be surprised if debuffs exist in there as well.
It's a common, and viable, tactic in numerous games. And D&D existed long before many of these modern games did.

Only difference perhaps, is that DDO monsters debuff a bit more often than in other games.


FYI - had this rant been based on the upcoming Dungeon Alert system, then you'd have a receptive audience

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Defense against Dispel effects is based on caster lvl.

Putting multi-classed casters at a disadvantage.

Putting melee focused multi'classed chars at a bigger disadvantage, either because you have few caster lvls, or have lots of agro....or both.

Playing in a group and letting someone else get agro first works well.

Try not to get caster agro, as they are the ones who will debuff you.

[Zenako]

Defense against Dispel effects is based on caster lvl.

Putting multi-classed casters at a disadvantage.

Putting melee focused multi'classed chars at a bigger disadvantage, either because you have few caster lvls, or have lots of agro....or both.

Playing in a group and letting someone else get agro first works well.

Try not to get caster agro, as they are the ones who will debuff you.

Which goes back to his statement:

"The whole idea behind the build was to just buff up and destroy things barbarian style."

and that playstyle is not condusive to the goals and playstyles you mention above.

[Impaqt]

How bout instead of Quitting you actually redesign the build so that its effective without buffs.

Buffs are intened to Increase the effectives of certain things. Not Create them out of thin air.

If you build is useless without buffs, you need to rethink the build.

[KKDragonLordB]

To be fair, it's not a mechanic that exists in many of the other popular MMORPGs.

It has always been something I kind of disliked about D&D. It's just not fun/nice/fair to give characters treats as they level up, like buff spells, better magic items, and so on...then turn around and negate/rip them away again. But it IS a part of this system, so you gotta account for that.

Lol, be glad the game isn't based on AD&D where enemies could Drain your Levels permanently.

"its not fun to not be super-uber all the time, its not fun to fight enemies who do a smart strategic thing to us that we can do to them, even if they are spell casters they should conveniently not consider using dispel magic ever"

Debuffing and dispelling is the one thing the enemy AI gets right! And they don't do it enough either, whenever enemies could cast spells they should try to debuff at least once IMO.

What you guys should be asking for is for More AI Strategy, not less.