Final draft of my Pally/Rogue

[flubuk73]

I've been playing for a few months now, and thanks in most part to the wonderful advice I've received here have really enjoyed learning the game and finally decided on my "main" char/class.

I've amassed 400 FP (and unlocked drow) on my account. So race will be drow.

Class will be 16/2 (18/2) pally/rogue focused on TWF

Mostly due to the flexibility this grants me, along with nice solo ability.

Looking at http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=11 as my starting build/stats (adjusted as applicable for when/if I can get the tomes) and thank you Mithran for the build draft

Only slight difference I thought about, was taking second level of rogue MUCH sooner (like 4 or 5) for evasion.

Any suggestions on what to drop based on the assumption I can only afford +1 tomes *maybe* one +2?

Focusing skillups on UMD/balance

Using Rapiers as weapons.

Any glaring ommisions/howlders I may have overlooked?

Any opinions/advice welcomed, very reluctant to move away from the race/class though, but adjustments within that more than welcome.

thanks in advance

[eonfreon]

The reason Mithran took the second level of Rogue so late was so that he could even out the skill points.
As a Rogue you start with 32 points with a 10 Int. but you can only put up to 4 points in any Class Skill (2 points for a Cross-skill) at start.
Per level a Rogue gets base 8 skill points while a Paladin gets 2.
Even with a 12 Int a Paladin only gets 3 points per level. That allows you to put 2 points = 1 into one cross-class skill (UMD) and just 1/2 point into another cross-skill (Balance in your case).
Mithran's taking of his 2nd Rogue Level at 16th Level allows him to max out the skills he wants, at least until the level cap goes up.

If you want to mimic Mithran's build and can get/buy two +1 Tomes- one for Int and the other for Dex, then I recommend starting stats of:

Str 16
Dex 16 +1 Tome or 1 level up needed for ITWF and GTWF
Con 12
Int 11 + 1 Tome, eat as soon as possible for the extra skill points.
Wis 8
Chr 15 +1 Tome as soon as possible so you can get access to Divine Might 2


So take the second Rogue level when you want, especially if all you want is UMD and Balance, because 1/2 Ranks in Balance is fine.

Personally, I've found the extra skill points unnecessary for my dps build.

On my Pally/Rogue I didn't start with Rogue, I didn't take the 2 levels of Rogue until level 7 and 8.
Granted he was Human, which gets an extra skill point, but I lost 24 points by starting as a Paladin instead of a Rogue.

Big Skill Point hit right?

But really all that meant was that I couldn't have 4 starting skills in a bunch of skills which I didn't care about.
Until I reached my 1st Rogue level I just put 1/2 ranks in UMD, Intimidate, Balance, and Jump.
With my 2 Rogue Levels I maxxed out UMD and Intimidate, put whatever was left into Balance and Jump, and from then on just kept Intimidate and UMD maxxed on my Pally levels.
I think I wound up with 7 Ranks in Jump and Balance, 16 and 13 points respectively with my Strength and Dexterity Bonus (and items and potions to crank it up when needed), it's been sufficient to get me back up on my feet quicker and be able to jump over all obstacles (remember you can find +10 Items quite easily).

Reason I didn't take Rogue at first is because I didn't want to take the BAB hit before level 6, so that I could take ITWF at 6th Level and Improved Crit:Pierce at 9th level.
But to each his own. I got the skills that I cared about to the max and the Feat Progression I wanted.
However, it ends up the same Feat-wise with Mithran's having far more skill points, with is good from an EndGame perspective, so Mithran's way is more efficient in a min-max way.
However, I enjoy the journey just as much as the destination, so I like my character to be at his best at all levels.
You'll just have to figure out what your requirements are.

Also I would recommend Extend over OTWF.
Again a personal choice, but I prefer having to my spells last 2x as long, as opposed to using 2 Rapiers without a -2 penalty (when I do dual-wield Rapiers I've never noticed much difference with the -2 to hit).

Hope that helps.

[eonfreon]

If you feel like doing some more reading here's a good link:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=186264

[Mithran]

As eonfreon indicated, the reason for taking the second Rogue level so late was so that I could max out UMD and Intimidate with only a starting Intelligence of 11 (+1 Intelligence Tome for 12, starting at level 2). Frankly, it would be much easier to level up with the Evasion earlier, but you lose a great deal at level 16.

To be sure, a friend had problems with all the tomes at first, but the only mandatory one was +2 Dexterity and +1 Intelligence. That means your problem is with the +2 Dexterity Tome.

I took a +3 Intelligence Tome from my 20th Shroud run (it hurts, but the Tome had to be taken before I could level up, and that time is fast approaching) so that I can continue to keep Intimidate and UMD maxed out.

Here's my updated plan:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.06
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Anguirel 
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(18 Paladin \ 2 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 324
Spell Points: 205 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 23
Will: 15

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             16                 22                   22
Dexterity            15                 17                   20
Constitution         12                 14                   14
Intelligence         11                 14                   14
Wisdom                9                 10                   10
Charisma             15                 19                   20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 16
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 16
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 16

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills        Base Skills        Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)          (Level 20)          (Level 20)
Balance               7                  9                   10
Bluff                 3                  5                    5
Concentration         3                  4                    5
Diplomacy             7                  9                    9
Disable Device        n/a               n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                  5                    5
Heal                  0                  0                    0
Hide                  3                  5                    5
Intimidate            7                 28                   28
Jump                  7                 10                   10
Listen                0                  0                    2
Move Silently         3                  5                    5
Open Lock             n/a               n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                  2                    2
Search                1                  2                    4
Spot                  4                  4                    6
Swim                  3                  6                    6
Tumble                7                  9                   10
Use Magic Device      7                 28                   28

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Drow Spell Resistance
Feat: (Automatic) Elven Keen Senses
Feat: (Automatic) Enchantment Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Immunity to Sleep
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Rapier
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Trapfinding
Feat: (Automatic) Trip


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Good
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Smite Evil
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Grace
Feat: (Automatic) Lay on Hands


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Aura of Courage
Feat: (Automatic) Divine Health
Feat: (Automatic) Fear Immunity


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Turn Undead


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Remove Disease


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+8)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Automatic) Evasion
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Divine Might I
Enhancement: Divine Might II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Tower Shield Proficiency
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin: Rally


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Vulkoor's Avatar
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III

It's still looking pretty good to me. If Mod 11 opens up the Realm of the Dead (as seems likely), I may opt for Hunter of the Dead, but that can be changed with a Trainer, later.

Edit: eonfreon is also probably right in saying that the build doesn't need to start with a level of Rogue. The +4's to the many different kinds of Skills aren't that big a deal, but having said that, I don't mind having the extra Skill points and expect eonfreon wouldn't mind having them, either.

If the Dexterity Tome is a problem (not an insignificant item, given how new you are, I realize), you could start out as eonfreon indicated. It's a good way to go and you wouldn't really lose anything. It's really a luxury roll, but she's been fun to play.

I've also pulled the Seven-Fingered Gloves for a +5 to UMD which was sweet and I'm looking to make her +6 to Charisma Skills Goggles. That should put her at about a 52 Intimidate and a 42 UMD.

[eonfreon]

Very true about Skill Points.
I regret sacrificing them.
It just comes to a question of patience.
In my playstyle I like getting the Feats in a quicker order.
By waiting until after level 6 I insure I get ITWF at 6.
While ITWF is no big deal at this level- I still prefer a Great axe or a shield, it opens up Improved Crit at 9th Level, and GTWF at 12th levels.

9th Level TWF begins to become really fun, especially dual wielding Improved Crit Rapiers+ Short Sword/Pick combos.
By Level 12 GTWF makes Double Smiting a virtual guarantee before you run out of Smites (which recharge, so I use them).
Combine with the benefits derived from all the special effects that using two different weapons with extra damage and/or paralyzing, banishing, vorpal combo, etc.

By picking the 4 Skill Sets truly Important to me I made sure I maxed 2: Intimidate and UMD.
I put enough ranks in Balance and Jump and even Tumble to be useful.

So done careully I managed to go to 6th Level, Take 2 Rogue Levels, Max out Intimidate (actually I lost 1 point overall), fully max out UMD, and got Evasion by Level 8 (1 Level before a Pure Ranger gets Evasion).

It came down to my temperment; I'm very impatient .

In the end Mithran's build has the same Feats, so the power is equal there, just in a different order of progression.
And has a bonus of Skill Points which is nice for Balance, Jump, even Tumble, but falls far behind in any other situational skill like Bluff, Heal, Concentration, etc which don't have much impact but are fun to play with at some early levels.

Mithral's way is more the scalpel.
I'm more the sledgehammer .
And I really liked being able to evade flamestrikes and lightningbolts with little danger of taking damage very early on.

That's one of the great things about being a Pally/Rogue, putting Evasion in the hands of a class with possibly the best saves to take advantage of it.

[eonfreon]

Here's an alternative path to the Pally/Rogue to get the Skills the OP wants.
He mentioned he wants UMD maxed and some Balance as well.

Level 1 Take Paladin.
Spend 8 Skill Points to max out UMD (2 Ranks) and Balance (2 Ranks).

Eat the + 1 Int Tome before Level 2.
You now have 3 points to spend per Paladin Level.

Level 6 Paladin Take ITWF.

Continue to Level 7 Paladin.
Spend your 3 Points Per Level to raise UMD, Balance, and maybe Jump 1/2 point per Level.
You'll have UMD, Balance = 5 Ranks at Level 7.
Jump = 3

Level 8 Go Rogue .
You'll have 9 Points to Spend.
Max out UMD to 10 (the max is 10 at Level 7) with 5 Points.
Use the 4 left over points as you like on Balance and/or Jump.
Balance can nearly max at 9 Ranks.

Level 9 Stay Rogue and Get Evasion.
Another 9 Points to spend on skills.
1 goes to UMD = 11.
8 Points left over to use as you want.
2 Points to Max out Balance to 11.
6 points left over put into Jump to raise it to 9 as well.


Level 10 Paladin again. Back on the Path of Righteousness.
Back to 3 Skill points per level from here on out.
Max UMD at Level 9 is 12 (4 + 8).
Use 2 Points and get UMD up from 11 to 12.
You have 1 Point left over which equal .5 in a Class Skill- one lost point but everything I want is taken.
Take IMP Crit : Pierce.

Paladin 11 and beyond.
Use 2 Skill Points to raise UMD 1 Full Point per Level.
Use the last point however you want, continue to put half points in Balance and/or Jump if you like.

Level 12 take GTWF.

Level 15 Take Extend or PA, at least I recommend over OTWF currently.

at Level 16:
UMD = 19 ( 4 + 15 ) Full Ranks.
Balance = 16 Ranks (Maxed out at Level 10 = 11 + 5 next 10 levels).
Jump = 9 Ranks (3 points raised by 6 = 9 at Level 10 then there are no more points spent).

I would have spent a point or 2 on Tumble. For mostly aesthetic reasons.

[Mithran]

One of the nice things about the OTWF is that it allows one to swap out a different Feat of your choice. For Nellas (14 Ranger/2 Paladin), I'm intending to swap it out for Combat Expertise and take Whirlwind Attack at level 18.

Extend is probably a better choice for Anguirel.

[eonfreon]

Ahh, so you just use OTWF as a place-saver.
That makes sense.
Also your taking OTWF at 6th also makes sense with your Feat Progression and Level.

Since you're "behind" on your TWF Feats, then OTWF is indeed the best dps related Feat available to complement ITWF until you can get GTWF.
Then OTWF isn't as useful and it's time to swap it out.

Extend on a Ranger14/Pall2 is indeed quite unnecessary.
While occasionally nice so you don't have to remember to re-buff, most Ranger spells have a long enough duration that Extend isn't needed.

However, Pally spells are such short duration that they can and sometimes do run out before an important fight is over and don't have the chance to reapply in the chaos.

Extended Zeal and even DF are nice.

[flubuk73]

All fantastic inputs, thanks guys

I finally made the char last night (on Thelanis server) and am aiming to take him to about level 4/5 for EU launch.

I went for

Str 16
Dex 16 (will tome or skillups as required)
Con 12
Int 11 (at a +1 tome at level 1)
Wis 8
Chr 15

As per eonfreon's suggestion

I took level 1 as rogue, and took toughness as feat

taking 2,3,4 as pally then take my 2nd rogue level for evasion at what (feels to me) a crucial time when spells/traps REALLY start hurting as a solo char)

TWF will be my next feat (I think?) as I love the 2xrapier style and DPS

that sound good?

This guy is fantastic fun thus far (hard to really tell until the hard work at 6+ starts)

thanks again for input(s)

[eonfreon]

Just follow Mithran's Feat Progression since you started as Rogue and you'll be fine.
Yes, take TWF since there's nothing better at that level (well there is but then you'll have to Swap out feats later- better to save your one free feat exchange for when you really need it).
Just remember, at low levels TWF isn't all that hot, especially until you at least have ITWF.
The initial Feat just sets you up for the rest of the Feat Line and lowers the TWF penalty, it does not increase your attack speed.
At lower levels you're actually better off with a Two-Handed weapon (Great Axe and Falchion being the best) for dps and switching to a shield when you need some AC.
The dps from TWF doesn't really take off until you get ITWF which increases your # of attacks.
And then GTWF for even more increase.

One of the reasons why I don't like bucking the system when it comes to acquiring the TWF Feats is because of a bug where if you have the BAB for GTWF and yet still use the "lesser" ITWF, you actually LOSE dps, due to an error in that if you don't upgrade at the "proper" BAB, you actually lose attacks, not just don't gain them but actually lose them.
So a 10 BAB player using ITWF has more dps then a 11 BAB using ITWF.
It's a major game flaw but hasn't been corrected yet as far as I know.

If you level up and don't "upgrade" your Feat you actually do less dps then you did the level before.

It's not a HUGE deal, the dps loss is not major and certainly not critical at that level, but it is annoying.