sorcerer versus wizard

[Talon_Moonshadow]

End game spell DCs
Wizard PREs
And DDO store SP pots have really put Wizards over the top in the last year or so.



I'm not a big Sor fan, but hopefully the Sor PREs when they come out will hlpe restore the balance.

I actually fear they may unbalance things in the wrong direction though.

[Cholera]

This is an "RPG" is it not ? and the role of a sorc is the arrogant super powerfull caster looking down on wizards ? is it not.....

So I stand by my original statement that Wizards are underperforming sorcs, Jack of all Master of none...

You stick to your numbers and i'll play by my experiances...

and yes it is my preference

*Mutters" bloody wannabe sorcs.....

Note: I do not buy the RP position you’ve taken here and will continue to treat your claims as those made in a real world context.

Given that I play both wizard and sorcerer classes regularly, I think I have a pretty good grasp of their comparative strengths and weaknesses. You, according to your own claims, do not. Thus you lack recent, direct experience with the wizard class. I expect that if you had played a comparatively geared and appropriately spec’d wizard in endgame content over the last year you'd agree: Game play IS an accurate reflection of the numbers - that is if you were willing to be honest about it.

Clearly, however, you are not willing to be honest about this - or much else, it seems. That means this exchange is over.

[Cholera]

End game spell DCs
Wizard PREs
And DDO store SP pots have really put Wizards over the top in the last year or so.



I'm not a big Sor fan, but hopefully the Sor PREs when they come out will hlpe restore the balance.

I actually fear they may unbalance things in the wrong direction though.

I thought this might be the case but I honestly don’t believe Turbine will do anything to increase sorcerers’ DCs – at least not in any school other than evocation. Their focus for sorcs seems to have been squarely placed on them as a damage class. My guess is that the reason they’re taking so long to come out with their PrEs is because of the balancing issues they’ll face when coming up with something that will pump out enough DPS to deal with end game mobs’ astronomical hit points.

There was some talk about a sort of Pale Master for sorcs but rather than becoming undead, the class will adopt Outsider traits. But who knows? I’m really looking forward to it though.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I thought this might be the case but I honestly don’t believe Turbine will do anything to increase sorcerers’ DCs – at least not in any school other than evocation. Their focus for sorcs seems to have been squarely placed on them as a damage class. My guess is that the reason they’re taking so long to come out with their PrEs is because of the balancing issues they’ll face when coming up with something that will pump out enough DPS to deal with end game mobs’ astronomical hit points.

There was some talk about a sort of Pale Master for sorcs but rather than becoming undead, the class will adopt Outsider traits. But who knows? I’m really looking forward to it though.

All of the rumors/theories I have heard would pooint to a damage boosting PRE for Sorcs.

Of which I see two possible outcomes.
it will either be too weak or two powerful. I'd be very surprised if they got it just right. Or even if there is a just right to get.

[Ekkrion]

Sorcerers need better damage, better DCs, and better spell penetration on their elemental damage spells. Non-damage spells should remain unaffected since crowd control/debuffing should be more a Wizard's domain. If Sorcerers are designed to be nukers they need to be given the proper tools for that purpose.

[Gorstag]

Sorcs need ALot more damage on their spells, I agree. A boost to their evocation/conjuration dc's.....yes I can see this as well. But why would they need a buff to their spell pen dc's? I do not know any damage spells that mobs get a spell pen check aginst? No, no spell pen bonus.

[Majere_Aumar]

Sorcerer is all about innate, raw, magical power. They should be able to fire HUGE spells at the cost of something related to life force or their sanity (hp, stats...etc) and maybe even risk death by casting the mega powered spells.

Suggestions:
Mandatory Penalty when using these abilities – you are knocked back (balance check to avoid knockdown) and are fatigued for 1 minute after using these special abilities.

1) A brand new mechanic where sorcs can put 2 to 4 different damage spells into a "spell group" (spell group appears as an extra box on their screen like a mini hotbar or weapons bar). They can cast the entire spell group in one big spell. They have to roll a will save against a dc equal to the sum of the spell levels +15 to avoid “The Penalty!!!”. Maybe increase the save DC if spell types are different (eg energy and elemental) and increase it a LOT is the damage types are opposites (fire and ice).

2) A new metamagic feat (maybe called "Overpower Spell") where you can gamble on doubling your damage but risk “The Penalty!!!”

eg.. every time you cast spells with "Overpower Spell" on, you roll a will save against a dc of 5 or 6 X the spell level, if you fail, you suffer the “The Penalty!!!”.

The Penalty!!!:
- If you fail the save by >5 you die
- If you fail the save by =<5 you are either feebleminded for 2 mins or reduced to 0 hp

Would be cool to combine both with 4 x meteor swarm in the "spell group" .... "Cleric, I'm gonna wipe out the next room, and myself, be ready to res"

[KuRRuPT]

Sorcs:

• They get a lot more SP (around 2600 SP by end-game), and can cast much faster.
• They get less spells, and can only change one out every 3 days...

Wizards:

• They get a lot less SP (around 1700 SP by end-game), and cast slower
• They get more spells, and can change them at will...
• They get bonus feats at levels 1,5,10,15,20

They are pretty well balanced... Many sorcs deal with their spell selection limitation by using scrolls...

Wizards bonus feats and the fact they can use situational spells is very useful in some quests...

I would usually recommend a wizard for a player trying out a caster for the first time... Being able to swap out spells at will lets you play with all of them, and then you can decide which ones are "best"...

I like the flexibility of a wizard, so I never rolled up a sorc, but I'm certainly jealous of all that extra SP...

My wiz has like 2100 or 2200 sp and with quicken can cast fast as well....just wanted to throw that in there...

[Majere_Aumar]

to sum it up, Wizards are underperforming Sorcs

I have a wizard (TR'd from sorc and wizard) that outputs >3 times more damage between shrines and in boss fights than any sorc can.

If I choose I can change specs and do about 8 times more CC between shrines than any sorc with a significantly higher DC ... and with quicken and enlarge spell switched on for no extra cost.

In questing and raids, no sorc has ever come close to my kill counts. I've still got a WF sorc in the shed waiting for a decent pre, but trust me, at the moment, there's no competition. If you are outplaying archmage wizards, then they are just terrible players, period.

[Jaid314]

My wiz has like 2100 or 2200 sp and with quicken can cast fast as well....just wanted to throw that in there...

sorcerer also gets shorter cooldown.

[knockcocker]

I have a wizard (TR'd from sorc and wizard) that outputs >3 times more damage between shrines and in boss fights than any sorc can.

If I choose I can change specs and do about 8 times more CC between shrines than any sorc with a significantly higher DC ... and with quicken and enlarge spell switched on for no extra cost.

In questing and raids, no sorc has ever come close to my kill counts. I've still got a WF sorc in the shed waiting for a decent pre, but trust me, at the moment, there's no competition. If you are outplaying archmage wizards, then they are just terrible players, period.

Agreed.

[Carpone]

I have a wizard (TR'd from sorc and wizard) that outputs >3 times more damage between shrines and in boss fights than any sorc can.

Hyperbole much? That claim is absurd.

[PopeJual]

Hyperbole much? That claim is absurd.

If you give an Archmage or a Pale Master enough time, they can put out more damage than any Sorcerer could even hope to put out - it's just going to take a really long time to use up 2000 SP with 1 SP arcane bolts and magic missiles.

[Bunker]

As much as I want to put my vote in for Wizard, I can only say this.

IMO, wizards are currently a better choice in most quests. Though without seeing an sorcerer PrCs in game yet, it is hard to say which will actually be better later on.

IMO, due to the lack of attention sorcerer has been given, in comparison to wizard, this thread and discussion can not reach a valid conclusion.

[Madryoch]

Wizard vs Sorc you say ...

Regardless of what most people said here I think that the reason they tend to play wizard instead of sorc is the fact that wizards have two very common builds... Fleshie Pale Master 3 who has HUGE hp compared to other casters + can self heal while maintaining high dcs on their spells and second one is WF Archmage who due to the specific specialization and self reconstruct are viable casters withhigh enough dcs and spells that cost almost next to nothing in some cases...

To return to the Original Question ...

In my opinion a sorcerer well built WITH end game gear is better than a wizard...but toexplain my point of view let's see what wizards have that sorcs don't and vice versa ...

Wizard...

-5 extra feats that i didn't notice anyone mentioning resulting in spell focus being viable and higher spell penetration due to greater spell penetration being one of em...

-wizards capstone which increases ur int by 2 thus increasing ur spell dcs by 1.

-more skill points due to the fact that investing in int (to have high dc since it's ur primary stat) u gain more sk p.

-wizards being able to practicaly have ALL the spells in game and being able to switch almost anytime they feel like it depending onthe situation ...

-Lower metamagic costs due to capstone

-PREs

Sorcerer...

-1.5 times the sp pool a wizard has ...

-Their normalcasting speed is 2ice as fast as a wizard's without quicken spell

-The MOST basic advantage of a sorcerer is the fact that MOST spells have HALF the cooldown they have for wizards rounded ... DOWN...

-20% extra damage from damaging spells

-High UMD scores due to the skill being charisma based and charisma being ur main stat...

Now u are gonna wonder why do istill thinksorcerer is better ...

One of the most commonly used CC spells is mass hold which ignores Spell Resistance.It is STILL DC based but a sorc canhavea DECENT if not the BEST DC in the game

now

I ll name the stats of my sorceress without PREs

42 charisma ... +7 item,+1 exceptional,+2 exceptional,+5 from lvling,+3 from sorc enhancements,1 from human adaptability,+4 from charisma tome, +1 from litany of the dead item and 18 starting Charisma

She has 41 DC enchantment and 38 to EVERY other school ... Without ANY buffs from ship or pots or whatever...(noting maximum wizard DC as archmage enchantment specced is 44 with same number of past lives... or 45 with completionist BUT not that useful since even 41 seems to be working almost everytime ...) Yes as u can imagine she has HIGHER dc than MOST wizards...

Has full sorcerer damage potential eardwellers and stuff making her deal 20% more damage than any wizard.

Also has the Greater Might of The Abishai set bonus .(+3 caster lvl bonus for evocation spells is the most important part ) to which the 20% capstone bonus and metamagic feats apply as well...

I get to correct my saved spells with casting mass hold every 2 seconds instead of 5 a wizard does

I have 1 Wizard past life and 1 Bard past life...

My sorceress also has 3004 sp with 3/4 sp bonus enhancements and no sp feats.

Adding good luck to my red dragonscale's blue slot and getting abbot gloves i ll have 41 UMD which enables me to use heal spell scrolls without fail and all other divine scrolls of that lvl or lower. (40 required).

Sorcerer in my opinion in short requires lots of work in order to get on a decent DC but will always deal goodenough damage to not be taken lightly. For the things they are lacking like the variety of spells u make up with scrolls ... and with high UMD u can use scrolls of divine origin as well.

The survivability is issued with the fact that with the correct gear u can use a heal scroll without having to switch any other piece than ur main weapon and back to ur weapon to continue and with enhancements like human improved recovery u can have scrolls healing for 190 hp even with 3/4 of the enhancement that increases the effectiveness of scrolls.

Wizard is the class to start as , as it is more forgiving to mistakes and the variety helps there.

Rilynrae of the Eclipse
20th lvl Human Sorceress
Member of guild Harmonious Balance of Server Orien attuned to Risia the plane of ice and proud owner of (my garden) the Orchard.

Divlnegrace of the Silver Flame 20th lvl Intimitank/hatetank experiment which unlikely as it may seem ... it works decently :P

/bow
At ur service

[PopeJual]

-20% extra damage from damaging spells

Has the Sorcerer capstone been fixed, then?

I was under the impression that the Sorc capstone didn't stack and was therefore mostly useless.

[Madryoch]

Hmmm i guess u don'thave a sorc

Else u could easily tell that it works properly. I started playing on may and wasn't a 20th lvl sorc before july ?? was it ... so if update 7 fixed that i don't know but it DOES work :P

[PopeJual]

Hmmm i guess u don'thave a sorc

Else u could easily tell that it works properly. I started playing on may and wasn't a 20th lvl sorc before july ?? was it ... so if update 7 fixed that i don't know but it DOES work :P

You are correct, I don't have a capped sorc. I got distracted by something shiny around level 8.

[Zerkul]

Sorcerer or Wizard????




...

Ryumajin wins.


Seriously you really think wizards are useful in endgame? Then you didn't quest with my sorcerer drow which has 445 hp selfbuffed without thougness feat or enhancements, 39 spell DC on every spell he can cast except on webs which is 40 (gonna get pastlife wizard and more as i get time to play more, so calculate 40 DC every school, 41 webs and evocations), a mana pool of 3200 sp + lots of sp clickies and 30/32 spellpenetration checks... and dulcis in fundo massive spellcost discounts which enable some hard nuking power which is enough to solo both queens in Epic ADQ1. You think a wizard can do this? You know wizards have high DC but seriously ... past 40 DC what else you need? I mean you need to play wise and with cunning if your mobs have too much saves debuff em first, you got the mana to do it then do it!

[Madryoch]

Not to be or trying to offend but how can u have 39 dc to all unless u are completionist? and if u are why do u have 42 charisma and not 44 ? according to the link of myddo that u have ofc :P But i do agree a decently equipped sorc and urs is one of them u can do things gr8 well enough if not better than wizards whenever it comes down to dc casting :P

If u have an answer to my questioni might always questionmy own build :P which i doubt :P

Rilynrae of The Eclipse.