sorcerer versus wizard

[5chinoble]

to sum it up, Wizards are underperforming Sorcs

if you want to multiclass an arcane caster go wizard, if you want pure go sorc. of course on the easier option, but if you multiclass with the sorc it will be a lot harder to start off but end up a lot more powerfull

I think most people who have even considered that a wizard is on par with a sorc either dont understand how to play an arcane caster (its all about shooting fireballs...innit), or have never played a sorc and are just speculating.

but there is no right or wrong answer to this, its all a matter of opinion.

[Samiusbot]

Sorcs are better hands down. The more spell points you get and faster casting out weigh versitility. The number of spells sorcs get for each lvl is plenty. For some lvls i have spells that are useless, there was nothing better. You should know what spells you need and which ones youll use, i planned it out on my sorc, and onl had to swap a few times, why? because all those extra spell slots are not needed. Sure, you can have a ton of spells, but you wont beable to keep on going like a sorc.

Because why cast the one spell you need when you can cast 3 spells for 3 times the mana in twice the time.

Wizards rule.

Now when the Sorc gets their PrE...... Maybe they will make a come back.

[Thrudh]

I think it's funny to see how people mostly thought sorcs were the best a year ago, and now the pendulum has swung to the wizards...

Sorcs need a few PrEs, that's all... Update 9 is probably only 2-3 months away.

[Oran_Lathor]

to sum it up, Wizards are underperforming Sorcs

if you want to multiclass an arcane caster go wizard, if you want pure go sorc. of course on the easier option, but if you multiclass with the sorc it will be a lot harder to start off but end up a lot more powerfull

I think most people who have even considered that a wizard is on par with a sorc either dont understand how to play an arcane caster (its all about shooting fireballs...innit), or have never played a sorc and are just speculating.

but there is no right or wrong answer to this, its all a matter of opinion.

l.o.l.

[kernal42]

I'd put Wizards on top late-game, but sorcs on top end-game.

The bonus to DC and versatility (by spell-swap & feats) lets a new player/character be very effective in epic content.

For a well-equipped and well-played character, these bonuses are less important - the well-equipped sorc can reach DCs that are excellent and sufficient for most content; the higher DC of the wizard is wasted here. Similarly, the well-played sorc can mitigate the spell selection and smaller feat pool issues. In this case, the faster cool-down, increased sp pool and, to a lesser extent, the +20% damage capstone provide more significant bonuses than what wizards provide.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Aaxeyu]

I think it's funny to see how people mostly thought sorcs were the best a year ago, and now the pendulum has swung to the wizards...

What is funny about that?

[stille_nacht]

Wizards essentially have dcs 4 higher at base, which makes them much more powerful in epic, because they can mass hold.

Your basic capped sorc has a dc aroudn 33, while your basic capped wiz has a dc around 37, this is without twinked gear and whatnot.

In addition, the past life feat for wizard adds +1 to your dcs, which also helps

Wizards are much better at the endgame, but in the midgame/early game, it really depends on how complex the quest is, and how well prepared the sorc is. Switching spells at shrines and taverns is always nice when running multiple quests that require multiple things, and being able to inscribe all spells is a huge advantage, but the sorc spell point pool is typically much larger, though this has been mitigated by Archmage, and by Epic ring of SS (because it gives like 1500 to both, lessening the percent difference)

Also, wizards can better afford metamagics because they get bonus feats to take metamagic/spell focus/mental toughness

[5chinoble]

Wizards essentially have dcs 4 higher at base, which makes them much more powerful in epic, because they can mass hold.

Your basic capped sorc has a dc aroudn 33, while your basic capped wiz has a dc around 37, this is without twinked gear and whatnot.

In addition, the past life feat for wizard adds +1 to your dcs, which also helps

Wizards are much better at the endgame, but in the midgame/early game, it really depends on how complex the quest is, and how well prepared the sorc is. Switching spells at shrines and taverns is always nice when running multiple quests that require multiple things, and being able to inscribe all spells is a huge advantage, but the sorc spell point pool is typically much larger, though this has been mitigated by Archmage, and by Epic ring of SS (because it gives like 1500 to both, lessening the percent difference)

Also, wizards can better afford metamagics because they get bonus feats to take metamagic/spell focus/mental toughness

all this DC on paper sounds fine, but in reality while your actually playing the game (god forbid) is far far less effective, if it wasnt, than why does my level 20 sorc without heightened hypnotise (level 1 spell) still hypnotise stuff on epic ?

your looking into number crunching too much, well suppose typical of a wizard... there was a quote in neverwinter nights 2 that fits this purpose, where the sorc says she has more power in her little finger than wizards can conjur up with their heads stuck in tomes all day, or something on those lines.

there also the saying jack of all master of none, wizards are the jacks and sorcs are the masters

[PopeJual]

all this DC on paper sounds fine, but in reality while your actually playing the game (god forbid) is far far less effective, if it wasnt, than why does my level 20 sorc without heightened hypnotise (level 1 spell) still hypnotise stuff on epic ?

Because of the massive penalty to saves that Epic trash gets?

your looking into number crunching too much, well suppose typical of a wizard...

This is true. Wizards spend all their time buried in books to improve their Int while Sorcerers work on their Cha by cruising the bars.

[Thrudh]

What is funny about that?

There was a long time where 80% of the casters thought sorc was far superior.

I've always thought wizards were a solid choice... More spell slots, and spell-swapping IS useful, 5 extra feats IS an advantage.

I posted many times, conceding that sorcs were more powerful in most situations, but that wizards were still viable, and the best in certain situations (For example, wizards could get Ooze Puppet for Enter the Kobold, wizards could afford the Enlarge feat that made fighting beholders trivial, etc.)

I find it amusing that many of those same people are now complaining that wizards are far superior, that sorcs are gimp....

I agree that the pendulum has swung the other way, but I still think they are fairly balanced... Sorcs need their PrEs.... AND we need a few more GOOD spells to make spell choices a little harder... And I think we'll be perfect.

Overall, I think Turbine has done a decent job of balancing the two casters... They play differently, and yet both are solid additions to any team.

[Aaxeyu]

There was a long time where 80% of the casters thought sorc was far superior.

I've always thought wizards were a solid choice... More spell slots, and spell-swapping IS useful, 5 extra feats IS an advantage.

I posted many times, conceding that sorcs were more powerful in most situations, but that wizards were still viable, and the best in certain situations (For example, wizards could get Ooze Puppet for Enter the Kobold, wizards could afford the Enlarge feat that made fighting beholders trivial, etc.)

I find it amusing that many of those same people are now complaining that wizards are far superior, that sorcs are gimp....

I agree that the pendulum has swung the other way, but I still think they are fairly balanced... Sorcs need their PrEs.... AND we need a few more GOOD spells to make spell choices a little harder... And I think we'll be perfect.

Overall, I think Turbine has done a decent job of balancing the two casters... They play differently, and yet both are solid additions to any team.

I really miss the humour here. It seems like you find it funny that people are not stubborn.
I might be misunderstanding you though.

[5chinoble]

This is true. Wizards spend all their time buried in books to improve their Int while Sorcerers work on their Cha by cruising the bars.

bars ? .....

surely you mean taverns

[Aashrym]

I really miss the humour here. It seems like you find it funny that people are not stubborn.
I might be misunderstanding you though.

Funny as in mildly ironic and seeing the humour in the irony.

[Cholera]

to sum it up, Wizards are underperforming Sorcs

if you want to multiclass an arcane caster go wizard, if you want pure go sorc. of course on the easier option, but if you multiclass with the sorc it will be a lot harder to start off but end up a lot more powerfull

I think most people who have even considered that a wizard is on par with a sorc either dont understand how to play an arcane caster (its all about shooting fireballs...innit), or have never played a sorc and are just speculating.

....

all this DC on paper sounds fine, but in reality while your actually playing the game (god forbid) is far far less effective, if it wasnt, than why does my level 20 sorc without heightened hypnotise (level 1 spell) still hypnotise stuff on epic ?

your looking into number crunching too much, well suppose typical of a wizard... there was a quote in neverwinter nights 2 that fits this purpose, where the sorc says she has more power in her little finger than wizards can conjur up with their heads stuck in tomes all day, or something on those lines.

there also the saying jack of all master of none, wizards are the jacks and sorcs are the masters

I'm sorry, I honestly do not mean to be rude but, looking at your join date, I'm having a great deal of difficulty believing that you have any amount of expertise on the subject (DDO is not NWN1/2 and it certainly isn't PnP). I have capped ten to twelve casters over the years, some sorc, some wiz. I enjoy both classes a great deal and would never think to suggest one is a poor version of the other or, for that matter, that I know enough about the myriad of play and build styles to offer such a summation.

As for your apparent claim of regularly landing unheightened hypnotize, I tested hypno with heighten disabled and found that while it is certainly possible to land, it takes multiple castings for even marginal effectiveness and is by no means capable of being anywhere near as reliable or useful as the alternative because even with an enchantment DC of 41 epic mobs (gnolls in wiz king, for example) can and do save against mass hold.

Respectfully, I would suggest you spend some more time leveling and maxing out your various wizard and sorc builds here in DDO before you make any more sweeping generalizations regarding how one class relates to another.

[stille_nacht]

all this DC on paper sounds fine, but in reality while your actually playing the game (god forbid) is far far less effective, if it wasnt, than why does my level 20 sorc without heightened hypnotise (level 1 spell) still hypnotise stuff on epic ?

your looking into number crunching too much, well suppose typical of a wizard... there was a quote in neverwinter nights 2 that fits this purpose, where the sorc says she has more power in her little finger than wizards can conjur up with their heads stuck in tomes all day, or something on those lines.

there also the saying jack of all master of none, wizards are the jacks and sorcs are the masters

.... yes so i objectified it, oh no, how will we ever live if we cannot just say vague, unsubstantiated things instead of facts? Comparing exact numbers? Looking at stats?

the fact of the matter is 4+ better dc= better at mass holding stuff. did i say sorcs couldnt? no. i just said wizards are more effective. If you dont want the math then ill just say this- i have never seen a sorc hold anything in ToD, i have seen 2 wizards manage it, flawed example? yes. but you dont want any maths apparently.

in addition, if wizards are the "jacks of all trades" then sorcs are "jacks of fewer trades", because both sorcs and wiz do the same damage, and archmage wizards can actually become the "master" of one line of spells (part of the reason they get so much better dcs)

So reiterate-
when levelling wiz and sorc are different in that wiz knows all the spells and can switch spells all the time, and sorc knows a limited amount of spells, cant switch enough for it to matter on a day by day basis, but does have a muuuch larger mana pool.

in the endgame your typical wizard will be more useful because of 4 higher dc on average (though sometimes the difference is higher if people tred or something), and the mana difference is mitigated by archmage, and possibly epic ring of SS. (Running out of sp shouldnt be a problem for any casters in epic anyway, all you do is masshold every now and again).

but remember, choose the one which is most fun to play, because games like ddo are for fun

[5chinoble]

I'm sorry, I honestly do not mean to be rude but, looking at your join date, I'm having a great deal of difficulty believing that you have any amount of expertise on the subject

I started out on the European servers early 2007 maybe earlier some time in 2006 to put a time on it I recall the module they introduced Giant Hold in but lets not use that as an issue here.

See for a long time I too batted and argued (blindly) the you need high DC to make your spells stick or it was pointless multiclassing with a caster due to the penalty of BAB until i actually started experimenting myself and not just taking word of mouth or a bunch of numbers on the be all end all.

I dont just blab on things that i theorise about but these are things from actually playing extensively both wizards and sorcs. I only play caster types I find pure melee far too limited and a little too RSI prone. I have leveled many characters to max level, on the european server all my toons were 32 pointers built the old fasioned way of 1700 favour. of course many were deleted.. especially the pure wizards

If i had listened to all the number crunching theorists on here (or the european forums) I never would have made probably some my most enjoyable experiments I ended up making, at the moment I am waiting for my toons to be transferred accross when turbine finaly gets around to my transition keys.

I play a different style on my sorcs, I dont bother much with damage spells (apart from bosses), they come third to me, primarily CC, than insta kill, than damage and finaly buffs. I beleive in locking the playing field down with CC, haste your fighters and stand around to watch the fun, on bosses yes I pull out the DPS spells, I mainly use force spells as theres very little that resists against them and once again the casting speed on magic missile and force missile is insane (for a sorc anyway), get the right enhancements in and with a bit of gear you can dish out some serious damage. There are other damage spells I use, but buttons 1 and 2 are magic missile and force missle, low SP, fast casting time and no one resists against them.

Edit- Add
For me its all about speed, its the one thing that diferentiates the 2, I play as part of a group (being a MMO), I try not to draw agro, I dont bother with feats that increase your HP because I beleive as a caster if your taking hits your playing it wrong. I play behind the fighters and need to cast quick enough to lock down the group that the fighters are running towards. I try to play a style that doesnt disrupt the way the fighters are running, I Use multiple types of CC's, and will often throw webs and hypno's, or an ottos with a web in the middle or various other single target CC

and for the DC thing you also need to consider the dice roll, even with higher DC you will still miss (or maybe once again your just theorising), but with faster casting and more SP you can miss and and try again when your counterpart has missed and everything is upon them.......

In my opinion from my personal experiance sorcs are far better at this than wizards are, but as the above poster said choose the one you enjoy most

[Cholera]

[...]
In my opinion from my personal experiance sorcs are far better at this than wizards are
[...]

Your entire post can be boiled down to this one statement - which, in effect, contradicts what you said earlier. In your earlier posts your statements regarding sorc vs. wiz used objective terms, here you are clearly using subjective. There’s nothing wrong with having a preference but there is something wrong with suggesting those with a differing preference simply don’t understand the classes – particularly when using your personal taste for the premises for your argument.

As for the DC argument; it’s a simple matter of mathematics. If your DCs are not overpowering to the mobs you are fighting (so high they cannot save without a 20) you will cast more trying to get the same spells to land. Period. There is no way around this. Over the long term (weeks, months and years of play) the variation in dice results are, ultimately, irrelevant as they will tend to average out. This being the case, even if one is willing to accept your hypothetical anecdote, it does nothing to support your apparent dismissal of the numbers.

The fact is that for some the extra skill points, spell slots, feats, DCs and quick change spells cannot compensate for the slower casting speed and lower SP one gets with a wizard. For others, the trade off is just fine and dandy. Frankly, for my part, I prefer being able to choose one option or the other when it suits me.

[Jaid314]

you know, i can't help but feel that one of the stupidest pieces of advice i've *ever* heard was "oh, just replace your spell penetration feats with 2 wizard past life".

it's the dumbest thing i've ever heard for several reasons. first of all, there's still stuff that will resist my spells now with 20 levels of sorcerer, both spell pen feats, 3 tiers of spell pen enhancements, and a spell pen item. logically, this means that i could still benefit from having more spell penetration in the first place.

secondly, if you're going to exclude "twink" items, then it is intellectually dishonest to tell me that i should have TR'd twice. either i'm on my first life, or i should have some amount of reasonably twink items.

thirdly, TRing twice is not something you do trivially. that's like saying "oh, well why don't you just go solo ToD. possible? sure. does everyone want to do it? no. is it easy? no. every time someone tells me i should just double TR casually needs to stop for a moment and realise that it's likely going to mean grinding for several weeks of intense boredom. then i get to do it over again. farming several million exp is *not* a casual undertaking. some people do it (and presumably if they don't enjoy it, they don't at least get the urge to rip out their intestinal track to avoid the proposition of doing so), but it is NOT something that you can just do casually.

anyways, now that that's out of the way: augment summoning boosts your charmed minions. in some quests, you are essentially dependant on your charmed minions being awesome. spending a feat to make them awesome sounds like a pretty decent idea. adding hit points and boosting your regular summon, possibly a skeletal summon, and a hireling is also not sounding like a terrible idea. add them all together, and i don't see why i wouldn't take it as a wizard.

thirdly, specialising in three schools is not a bad idea. particularly if you're a pale master and one of those schools is forced to be necromancy. but even an archmage could find a use for three schools of specialisation (even without supporting enhancements from the PrC), if only for clearing out trash in amrath more effectively or to land evocation spells more often.

would i specialise in three schools before taking other feats? nope. but i'd do it in a heartbeat if i was given the choice of an extra toughness feat or a spell focus feat.

[5chinoble]

There’s nothing wrong with having a preference but there is something wrong with suggesting those with a differing preference simply don’t understand the classes – particularly when using your personal taste for the premises for your argument.

This is an "RPG" is it not ? and the role of a sorc is the arrogant super powerfull caster looking down on wizards ? is it not.....

So I stand by my original statement that Wizards are underperforming sorcs, Jack of all Master of none...

You stick to your numbers and i'll play by my experiances...

and yes it is my preference

*Mutters" bloody wannabe sorcs.....

[PopeJual]

This is an "RPG" is it not ?

No. This is not an "RPG". This is a discussion forum. If you want to post an in-character rant as an arrogant buffoon, then please label your posts as such so that we might know that ahead of time.

and the role of a sorc is the arrogant super powerfull caster looking down on wizards ? is it not.....

That actually sounds more like the role of an arch-villain that is about to be defeated by the heroic party.

So I stand by my original statement that Wizards are underperforming sorcs, Jack of all Master of none...

You stick to your numbers and i'll play by my experiances...

and yes it is my preference

*Mutters" bloody wannabe sorcs.....

That's cool for you, dude. I hope you enjoy playing your Sorcerer for years to come. Please understand that a good many people won't appreciate your disrespect and poor analysis, however.