sorcerer versus wizard

[PlanetSeer]

Keep in mind when reading this that I'm really new. I joined up in July before I even knew there was a Mod 9 we were looking forward to :-)

I'm a huge fan of the spellcasters and I like both aspects; lots of spell points or lots of spells is a tough choice. I've gotten a few different Wizards to level 3 or 4 and the running out of spellpoint thing just bugs me. So I'm experimenting with starting as a sorcerer for the spell points and multiclassing into a wizard for the rest. So far, this has seemed like a great way to get a ton of spell points for my Wizard - like 100 extra points. I just set my Charisma at 13 - just enough to cast the shield and chill touch spells I started with, then set my Intelligence at 17 and balance constitution and strength (so I can hit stuff when it comes after me or if I'm in a small group).

So far this has seemed awesome but I haven't seen this combo mentioned on the boards much. Does anyone see any glaring problems with this build for getting to the end? I feel like it's the best of both worlds.

[ddoer]

duplicated

[ddoer]

So far this has seemed awesome but I haven't seen this combo mentioned on the boards much.

this fact tells sth. if you mean Wiz19/Sorc1, it's a seriously mistaken. You'll lose the Wiz capstone. The extra spell point just do not worth it. Not to say, as a Wiz, you "waste" some stats in Cha.

in general, if you are a new player, it's better for you to stick with proven build. or stay pure to explore the pull potential of a class, before doing multi-classing.

[PlanetSeer]

Well so far, there have been other benefits - like two extra spell slots for instance. So I have a low Charisma to cast them, but I get to cast the two sorcerer spells + the additional spells. Is the Wizard Capstone really worth it? What would I really miss - I'll have to look at the compendium...

I play with a small group of friends, we're all new to the game and figuring it out together. We definitely won't be joining the whole raiding / farming crew. I guess my question should be - at what point do the Wizard spell points start being enough? I always run out too quick - then die :-)

[krud]

Well so far, there have been other benefits - like two extra spell slots for instance. So I have a low Charisma to cast them, but I get to cast the two sorcerer spells + the additional spells. Is the Wizard Capstone really worth it? What would I really miss - I'll have to look at the compendium...

I play with a small group of friends, we're all new to the game and figuring it out together. We definitely won't be joining the whole raiding / farming crew. I guess my question should be - at what point do the Wizard spell points start being enough? I always run out too quick - then die :-)

I doubt the sorc spell pool will last so much longer that you won't run into the same situation. You'll still have to manage your mana pool. I would suggest staying wizard. You'll appreciate getting access to the higher level spells sooner. If you roll new characters, you can make your second caster a sorc. He'll probably level up faster, so you won't notice getting your higher level spells later than a wizard. Plus, you'll have figured out your favorite spells to use, and will better handle the limited sorc spell slots.

I have only wizards because I like versatility in my characters..

[PlanetSeer]

I doubt the sorc spell pool will last so much longer that you won't run into the same situation. You'll still have to manage your mana pool. I would suggest staying wizard. You'll appreciate getting access to the higher level spells sooner. If you roll new characters, you can make your second caster a sorc. He'll probably level up faster, so you won't notice getting your higher level spells later than a wizard. Plus, you'll have figured out your favorite spells to use, and will better handle the limited sorc spell slots.

I have only wizards because I like versatility in my characters..

Good advice - thanks, krud. I really don't care to play a sorcerer - I also like the flexibility of a Wizard and the role suits my play style. Managing Mana is tough - but, like you said, I will just have to get the hang of it. I re-rolled a pure wizard last night and am playing through Korthos solo to get the hang of the mana allocation. I'll just be in practice mode for a while before I start PUGing.

Thanks again for the advice.

[Yurtrus]

I built a caster awhile ago and still play him today.. I wanted to be able to help out the group more then be an aggro magnet. During his life he found a nice balance and is now able to buff an entire raid group ( if one is needed ) and still heal the WF. His UMD is high enough that he can cast full restoration and heal along with Raise dead and Resurrection* ( small amount of failure ) he is spec'd for crowd control and has the ability to deal out some real nice damage. He is IMO an amazing build. He can do it all and most importantly help where it counts.

Now: This took alot of time, grinding, green steel immunities goggles, and neck along with having the fanion and some decent saves as well as 2 DTA with +5 resistence, protection and greater spell pen 8/natural armor +4, etc..

Lots of people this carrying a shield is a waste, but it has done him no harm and I walk around with a 41 ac unbuffed. Now, in this game having anything under 60 is considered a waste. However, IMO I would rather have a 41 then a 21 and even if other people don't think so, I think it helps.. Having 270hp unbuffed at level 19 also allows for survivability..

BOTTOM LINE:

You play what you like, you play how you like. I made a choice a long time ago that my sole purpose would be to keep the party buffed and exceptional, slowing mobs and helping out ( cc ) as much as possible. I have close to 3000 SP's at level 19 with the proper items on and conserve as much as possible to pull it out in the end. If you don't want to help the party, care too much about your own kill count, don't want to heal the warforged as well as wand heal during down times and running in quests. This build is not for you. I can solo 90% of the game myself and personally don't care to do any more. I like grouping and I built my character for that purpose.

PS: I personally would hate to be a wizard. They cast too slow, have a much lower mana pool and there are only a few times ( very few ) that I would prefer to have another spell or be able to trade out. I am not saying that wizards suck.. I am just saying that I would never consider rolling one again.

[vainangel]

PS: I personally would hate to be a wizard. They cast too slow, have a much lower mana pool and there are only a few times ( very few ) that I would prefer to have another spell or be able to trade out. I am not saying that wizards suck.. I am just saying that I would never consider rolling one again.

+1 great post

[PlanetSeer]

Wizards are for people like me that get bored with the same few spells over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I don't like grinding - I'd rather go outside and play. So I want to do everything I can to keep it semi-fresh. I'm also not looking to Ace end-game with all the uber gear and such - so it sounds like a Wizard will be just right.

[PlanetSeer]

Oh wait - I'm on the Sorcerer forum - I mean - Go Sorcerer - Wizzards suxz.

/sneaks away quietly...

[DDOSin]

Wizards = Old school TSR people.

Sorcerers = Wizards of the Coast kiddies or people who have never played PnP before.

[Impulse101]

Wizards = Old school TSR people.

Sorcerers = Wizards of the Coast kiddies or people who have never played PnP before.

How do you justify that statement? A wizard can bring the adaptability, sure. But to (effectively) call the sorc class a mouth-breathing impulsive child is ignorant. Please, give us facts, reasons, even informed opinions as to why this is, as opposed to 'lolsorcsux'

[Ehra]

Wizards = Old school TSR people.

Sorcerers = Wizards of the Coast kiddies or people who have never played PnP before.

If the DDO Wizard came anywhere near the versatility that the PnP Wizard tends to have and many of the endgame bosses in DDO weren't immune to the effects that would make the Wizard's minor versatility advantage worthwhile then you'd have a point.

[shinmade]

There is no "best", only perceptions.

If you want to learn how to play a good sorc, make a solid wizard. The experience you get in terms of spell selection and spell management as a wizard will be priceless when you start up your sorc.

[Ellistran]

Sorcs can use no fail heal scrolls and many other cleric scrolls. Sorcs have twice the casting speed and cool down. sorcs can only choose 4 spells as opposed to 5 but there are only 3 useful spells if that per level with the exception of 4th level spells. Wizards can debuff raid bosses but scrolls can be just as efective on normal. Sorcs are the better class to an experienced player by far. Casting time should be the same for both classes as there is no reason for it.( PnP wizards cast faster then Sorcs when metamagic feats are used) The only difference should be in sp. If there was more of a selection of useful meta magic feats and spells then a wizard may make sense or if enlarge actually enlarged cone spells and the raidus of blasting spells along with the range but eschew materials? really? Quicken? Sorcs are by far better for the experienced player. Untill a larger spell selection, meta magic feat selection, such as crafting, becomes available or quests that require a completely differnt spell list then others Sorcs are the winners in this old debate. Lets not forget sorcs can change spells, just 1 every 3 days and some pp and boom spell swap, That means every new mod, 6-9 months you may have to change 1-3 spells around.

[Tallyn]

Sorcs can use no fail heal scrolls and many other cleric scrolls. Sorcs have twice the casting speed and cool down. sorcs can only choose 4 spells as opposed to 5 but there are only 3 useful spells if that per level with the exception of 4th level spells. Wizards can debuff raid bosses but scrolls can be just as efective on normal. Sorcs are the better class to an experienced player by far. Casting time should be the same for both classes as there is no reason for it.( PnP wizards cast faster then Sorcs when metamagic feats are used) The only difference should be in sp. If there was more of a selection of useful meta magic feats and spells then a wizard may make sense or if enlarge actually enlarged cone spells and the raidus of blasting spells along with the range but eschew materials? really? Quicken? Sorcs are by far better for the experienced player. Untill a larger spell selection, meta magic feat selection, such as crafting, becomes available or quests that require a completely differnt spell list then others Sorcs are the winners in this old debate. Lets not forget sorcs can change spells, just 1 every 3 days and some pp and boom spell swap, That means every new mod, 6-9 months you may have to change 1-3 spells around.

Ellistran, isn't your namesake (Ellistran) a wizard?

[wolfy42]

I've played many sorcs and wizards over time, both pure and multiclass. Both have advantages but Wizards I think are better multiclassed and sorcs are best pure.

Wizards work great with rogue levels (2 at least for evasion + high int for umd and Disarm traps etc). You have room for 1 other class level to toss in, or stick with wizard 18/rogue 2.


Sorcs already get spells 1 level slower then wizard...and more importantly are not as versatile. I have made some decent mutliclassed WF sorcs though and once long ago a pure melee WF sorc (just used no-save damage spells/heals and buffs along with melee combat).

Honestly the pure damage sorc just rocks throught he game. It has significantly higher damage output then a wizard due to faster casting speed and higher mana pool. In fact you can run with empower going as a sorc and still cast as many spells as the wizard without empower.

For pure extreme damage output a sorc using spells with no saves, maximized and empowered can take just about anything down FAST. Wizards take almost twice as long AND run out of mana way faster.....making it take almost 3x as long in some cases due to spell point conservation. With quicken active the wizard reduces the time penalty slgihtly...but increases the spell point cost.....ending up with a larger net loss to damage.

Int is useful...but in many ways Cha is better for a pure wizard or sorc. While int allows you to increase more skills..there are not that many class skills that are important. UMD is one of the biggies...and the higher boost to UMD from a huge CHA is >>> then multiple much lower skills.

Little mention has been made of the use of wands and scrolls to suppliment the sorcs spell choices. In many cases a wand works just as well as having the spell itself memorized. My largest problem as a sorc has always been having to many wands to store...not running out of utility wands.

For a new character it might be worth it to multiclass your wizard with rogue....or possibly monk (or even 2 monk and 1 rogue). This would give you evasion (very nice) much higher AC...and rogue skills (nice for playing your first time). Monk levels + rogue skill bonus (take rogue at lvl 1) will give you good sneak skills...and invisibility wands will help you sneak around like crazy. Monk wisdom ac bonus + wizard defensive spells and evasion with intellectual reflexes = plenty of defense. High int allows you to keep your rogue skills up and max UMD as well.

So for wizard....multiclass seems like the way to go. You won't have the best offensive spells, but you'll eventually get lvl 9 spells still.

Sorcs need to sacrifice too much just to get evasion..and won't have the high dex or int to make use of it. They might as well stick with pure sorc...and nuke everything to death. Since you get spells 1 level later then wizards naturally it will be a bit of a wait to really rock...but honestly a sorc with a high cha to start...a weapon of evocation (+1 to evocation DC) and a superior potency item equipped is going to rock everythings socks off till lvl 6 when you start shining anyway.

A wizard should consider using a great axe/sword and masters touch early on instead...since you can switch out spells at will. You'll probably kill faster that way...and should snag something like false life to help keep your HP up (along with other defensive spells...or if WF repair spells). A high int wizard might consider using hypnotize to deal with CC early on and let him or her kill enemies one at a time as well.

The sorc....honestly just needs to plow through everything heh. Niacs on a sorc with superior potency and evocation is sick (you can use an ice lore weapon instead of evocation but you really don't need to crit for 100+ to kill stuff at that level...it's better to hit 5% more often instead in my opinion..since you'll 1 hit kill pretty much everything anyway till lvl 6....also +1 evocation works for fire and ice...so burning hands gets a boost 2).

I like niacs and burning hands for low lvl sorc...then jump....and first lvl 4 spell eagles splendor for the +2 dc. This pretty much brings you up to lvl 6 and lets you decimate everything you come across. Eagles splendor wands can be taken instead...but there are no great damage lvl 2 spells at this level (until later at least).

Lvl 1 I think I took niacs and burning hands
lvl 2 I took magic missile (With robes that gives you 2 missiles)
lvl 3 jump
lvl 4 Eagles

All you really need to get through the early levels right there. Obviously boost your fire/ice damage and crit bonus enhancements. I'd suggest boosting your force damage (and possibly crit) as well since you will need them for some monsters. Grab a superior potency item and your ready to destroy any quest you want.

Wizards......need to party...use melee weapons....or mana potions. Even with the achrivests necklace which balances the max sp between the two a bit...the wizard is still at a huge disadvantage. When the sorc has 500 base sp...the wizard will have about 300. The necklace makes them have about 350 and 550...but it's still a huge difference. IF your casting base lvl 1 spells that is 20 extra casts for the sorc...which is huge.

Bonus feats are nice.....but not as noticable at early levels. Wizards gain more advantages later on, but fall further behind on damage output and max spell points. Even if the wizard uses 2 of his bonus feats for mental toughness and improved mental toughness he won't come close to the sorcs max sp...and will still cast slower in combat.

Therefore, I say wizards are best used for CC, untility spells and buffs. Instant kill spells can be useful on a wizard as well...but I think an alternative damage source...and the use of wands ...is far more important for wizards then sorcs. With the recent changes to the eternal wands.....wizards do have a semi-decent steady source of damage they can use now as backup at least. It's comparable to what they could do with a bow more then likely at least.

Sorcs don't need damage wands....but do need utility wands. Blur from a wand on a sorc is probably better then self casting it (not as long duration though...but you can start using blur wands at lvl 3).

Anyway both classes are fun. Sorcs though seem far more specialized at casting and able to get by only with their own spells. Wizards need wands or an alternative source of damage...or possibly spell point potions.

[stazer]

Wizards = Old school TSR people.

Sorcerers = Wizards of the Coast kiddies or people who have never played PnP before.

i wish i could truely emphasis how ridiculous this statement is. Truely...

[stazer]

Lets hash it out...which is better?
Be specific...
Changing spells for a sorcerer...find a trainer...pay a lot (coming from a cleric...what pay for changing a spell)
Why would I build a sorcerer over a wizard?
Truth be told I did build a sorcerer, now 4th level, considering scrapping for a wizard though...talk me out of it.

OP most long time players would never use "plat" or time to swap out feats as a rationale for playing a character without the power..or potential for power. It absolutely cannot be argued that sorc's will have more SP (on Sarlona i have 2700 sp and am only 17th), and greater nuking capabilities (not higher dc's) and It SEEMS by your post that you are basing you decision not to play a sorc on the fact that A - You are unsure of which spells to utilize (or in end game/experience which spells are used 90%) of the time) B - Cost and frustration over swapping spells.

I have played both wiz and sorc and have learned that I can spec my sorc to be useful in EVERY quest, and downright nasty in many - specifically end game -

But this came with ALOT of trial and error and learning the quests.

[transtemporal]

Wizard = MacGyver
Sorc = Indiana Jones