The "Iconic" Paladin

[Valezra]

Here is a S&B Pure Pally build. I did this only as an exercise to compare the build to a TWF pure Paladin.

The "Iconic" Paladin

HP: 470-500 (depending on how you spend your AP)
Spellpoints: 550+

STATS
Str: 32 (17 + 1 Human + 3 Tome + 4 Levels + 1 Exceptional + 6 Item)
Dex: 18 (10 + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Con: 22 (12 + 3 Tome + 1 Human + 6 Item)
Int: 8
Wis: 16 (8 + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Cha: 28 (17 + 2 Tome + 2 Paladin + 1 Level + 6 Item)

Feats:
1- Toughness, Exotic Proficiency: Khopesh
3- Tower Shield Proficiency
6- Power Attack
9- Cleave
12- IC: Slashing
15- Extend Spell
18- Great Cleave

Damage (Min II Khopesh - Holy, Acid, Acid):

10.5 .. Base Khopesh + 5
11 .. Strength
3 .. Divine Favor
5 .. Human Versatility IV
5 .. Power Attack
8 .. Divine Might IV
1 .. Rage Spell (pot)
2 .. Double Madstone Rage
7 .. Bard Song

52.5 .. Average Base Damage

39.375 .. 52.5 * (15/20) - Weighted Avg normal hit
35.16 .. (52.5+6) * (4/20)*3 - Weighted avg Crit w/ Bloodstone

74.535 .. Average / swing

156.89 .. Base DPS (126.3 swings/minute w/ Haste and Zeal)

6.65 .. Weighted Holy (2d6)
2.375 .. Weighted Slicing (1d4)
2.625 .. Weighted Acid (1d6)
2.2 .. Weighted Acid Crits (2d10)
.7 .. Weighted Acid Blast (4d6 on 20)
.75 .. Weighted Force Ritual Damage
7.6 .. Weighted Tharnes Goggles
13.3 .. Weighted Knight of the Chalice
6.65 .. Weighted Weapons of Good

42.85 .. Total Weighted Effects / swing

90.19 .. Effects DPS

247.08 .. Total pre-smite DPS

Discussion:

A TWF Warforged KOTC does about 360 DPS vs evil outsiders. A S&B Human KOTC does about 69% of that damage vs evil outsiders. While not awesome damage compared to the top builds it should be noted that before Smites and Divine Sacrifice a Human KoTC does 50% of the damage that a Monster build would do against the same evil outsider. Factor in Smites and Divine sacrifice and the Paladin still does exceptional DPS for a S&B build.

The S&B Paladin loses a significant amount of DPS versus its TWF counterpart but gains higher AC, Cleave/Great Cleave combo for decent multi-mob DPS, easier stat spread since dex is not as important, and much better Attack Bonus. For a boss that a TWF Paladin is having trouble hitting on rolls of 2 or more the S&B Paladin quickly gains a little DPS ground. In those situations a TWF Paladin could see a drop in around 10% DPS meaning the S&B version is now doing about 77% of the WF TWF Kotc build.

A variation on this build may be to go Dwarf w/ Dwarven Axes and drop the Cleaves for Improved Sunder and Stunning Blow. Then use the AP to improve the Dwarven Tactics. This is another fun alternative which is more of a tactical Paladin. You will lose some DPS compared to the human counterpart.

I'm not arguing for or against S&B paladins... I am only showing that if properly built they can contribute decently to the group success. My personal benchmark for "useful DPS" is anything over 200 DPS at level 20 (though that assumes at least half your raid group can hit 300 DPS). You may have different benchmarks which is just fine.


Val

[Dexxaan]

Nice Build......but can he Doorstop?

[Angelus_dead]

3- Tower Shield Proficiency

Tower shield... on a Knight of the Chalice!

It's pretty funny that you spend a feat on Tower Shield, but then don't even bother to add up the AC. If you care that little about AC, why spend a feat on it? (There also isn't an Intimidate number)

18- Great Cleave

Have you tried Great Cleave? Why not get something slightly helpful, like Weapon Focus or Slicing Blow? Or if you're going for AC, Dodge.

8 .. Divine Might IV

Have you tried Divine Might?

For a boss that a TWF Paladin is having trouble hitting on rolls of 2 or more the S&B Paladin quickly gains a little DPS ground. In those situations a TWF Paladin could see a drop in around 10% DPS meaning the S&B version is now doing about 77% of the WF TWF Kotc build.

Holding a Tower Shield means your attack bonus isn't any better. And if you're going to be taking off the shield for hard targets, you may as well go all the way and hold a Falchion.

I'm not arguing for or against S&B paladins... I am only showing that if properly built they can contribute decently to the group success.

If you want to show that, you'd need to mention some kind of advantage gained by losing all that DPS.

[Borror0]

The S&B Paladin loses a significant amount of DPS versus its TWF counterpart but gains higher AC

How much damage avoidance does that result into and how much does it contribute to the party's success?

A variation on this build may be to go Dwarf w/ Dwarven Axes and drop the Cleaves for Improved Sunder and Stunning Blow.

Improved Sunder, really?

[Angelus_dead]

Improved Sunder, really?

Improved Trip would be generically more useful. But if you assume that the developers will succeed in their attempts to make enemy AC more meaningful in the next raids, then Imp Sunder could help other group members with their own DPS.

Of course, any talk of melee special abilities would have to note that they're about twice as reliable with TWF.

[Valezra]

How much damage avoidance does that result into and how much does it contribute to the party's success?

Improved Sunder, really?

Honestly I have never played with Improved Sunder. I am assuming with the grazing hits system we will eventually start seeing bosses with really high AC and having someone in the party that can sunder their armor may lead to a lot more group DPS. Then again, it could be a complete waste. Was just throwing it out there for that theoretical future scenario.

I didn't calculate the AC but a properly built S&B Paladin should easily be able to hit AC in the 60's I'd think. In several raids this amounts to being hit quite a bit less and a lower burden on the healers.

The main goal of the exercise was to see what a Paladin S&B DPS is. What you do with the other feats and Action Points is up to you... so long as you build him to contribute as much as possible.

While I firmly believe everyone should build to meet the needs of one of the 4 primary archetypes (DPS, Healing, Tanking, Casting) before branching off into other objectives I do think that if someones ABSOLUTELY insists on making a S&B Paladin they should plan to maximize and pull out every bit of DPS they can get since they are already starting at a disadvantage.

Val

[Comfortably]

Greater Destruction will solve the problem of having hard time hitting said boss/mob.

[Angelus_dead]

The main goal of the exercise was to see what a Paladin S&B DPS is.

But you used a character that was unrealistic and even nonsensical. Simply the fact that you're holding a Tower Shield doesn't make you an S&B character, because you're not necessarily gaining any of the benefits S&B can bring.

A real S&B Paladin would have Defender of Syberis, Combat Expertise, and Dodge (in addition to Tower Shield), all of which reduce DPS potential. If a character did not have those things, then it doesn't even make sense for him to be holding a shield at all, because his AC is barely on the die.

[Angelus_dead]

Greater Destruction will solve the problem of having hard time hitting said boss/mob.

1. We don't know if the devs will be stupid enough to leave Greater Destruction as-is.
2. If they do leave Greater Destruction around, they could assume you'll always use it, and give the bosses +8 AC to compensate.

[Valezra]

Tower shield... on a Knight of the Chalice!

It's pretty funny that you spend a feat on Tower Shield, but then don't even bother to add up the AC. If you care that little about AC, why spend a feat on it? (There also isn't an Intimidate number)

AC:
10 Base
3 Dex
9 Shield
15 Armor
2 Ritual
3 Chattering Ring
5 Aura
3 Barkskin Pot
5 Protection
5 Insight Levikks
1 Haste

61 AC

2 Recitation
2 Barkskin
4 Bardsong

69 AC

Intimidate:
9 Cha
4 Greater Hero
11 Ranks
15 Intim Item
2 HoGF
6 Shroud

47 Intimidate

50 Intimidate <drop great cleave and get least Sentinal DM>

47 & 50 Intim are good numbers for offtanking. You should have no fail intimidating the Orthons in VoD on any setting.

thanks for those questions you just made me realize the build is better than I originally thought.

Have you tried Great Cleave? Why not get something slightly helpful, like Weapon Focus or Slicing Blow? Or if you're going for AC, Dodge.

See above. You could drop Great Cleave and get Least DM of the Sentinal for better intimidating. Although with the time delay issue, if you drop Great Cleave you might as well drop Cleave as well. This could boost your Intim another bit or you could get whatever else you like.

Have you tried Divine Might?

Yes. Is there a problem with tons of +8 Damage clickies?

Holding a Tower Shield means your attack bonus isn't any better. And if you're going to be taking off the shield for hard targets, you may as well go all the way and hold a Falchion.

So when a character takes the Tower Shield Proficiency they actually aren't required to always use a Tower Shield. When DPSing they can actually use a large shield and not take the attack penalty. See, you learn something everyday. And yes, you could use a Two-handed weapon but the people who insist on rolling a S&B paladin don't want to for some strange reason.

If you want to show that, you'd need to mention some kind of advantage gained by losing all that DPS.

So the advantage to losing that DPS would be:

1. Spare feats to boost Intimidate for offtanking.
2. Excellent offtanking AC.

I guess, long story short what I have built is a really decent Intimidating off tank Pure Paladin for all those folks that insist on playing S&B only. In my opinion, the moral of the story is: If you insist on being a S&B Pure Paladin you need to be able to at least fill an off-tank roll while maximizing your one-handed DPS.

Val

[Valezra]

But you used a character that was unrealistic and even nonsensical. Simply the fact that you're holding a Tower Shield doesn't make you an S&B character, because you're not necessarily gaining any of the benefits S&B can bring.

A real S&B Paladin would have Defender of Syberis, Combat Expertise, and Dodge (in addition to Tower Shield), all of which reduce DPS potential. If a character did not have those things, then it doesn't even make sense for him to be holding a shield at all, because his AC is barely on the die.

You are wrong about needing CE and being a defender. Please see my previous post.

Val

[Angelus_dead]

69 AC

Yeah, 69 AC. That's pitiful for level 20. Even at level 16, it'll take some begging to convince the bard to even waste a song on you.

47 Intimidate

Yeah, 47 intimidate. That's inadequate for level 16.

47 & 50 Intim are good numbers for offtanking. You should have no fail intimidating the Orthons in VoD on any setting.

Yippee, Orthons?

Although with the time delay issue, if you drop Great Cleave you might as well drop Cleave as well.

That makes no sense. Cleave is much better than Great Cleave.

Yes. Is there a problem with tons of +8 Damage clickies?

The problem is that the casting time for Divine Might is long enough for 8 melee attacks. If the boss fight lasts more than 55 seconds, then you can't simply add Divine Might into the damage as if it was always on.

So when a character takes the Tower Shield Proficiency they actually aren't required to always use a Tower Shield. When DPSing they can actually use a large shield and not take the attack penalty. See, you learn something everyday.

As I already explained, that doesn't make sense. If you're willing to drop AC for DPS, then why stop at Heavy shield? Why not go all the way to THF so you can actually have some real DPS?

I guess, long story short what I have built is a really decent Intimidating off tank Pure Paladin

You didn't.

[Valezra]

Yeah, 69 AC. That's pitiful for level 20. Even at level 16, it'll take some begging to convince the bard to even waste a song on you.


Yeah, 47 intimidate. That's inadequate for level 16.


Yippee, Orthons?


That makes no sense. Cleave is much better than Great Cleave.


The problem is that the casting time for Divine Might is long enough for 8 melee attacks. If the boss fight lasts more than 55 seconds, then you can't simply add Divine Might into the damage as if it was always on.


As I already explained, that doesn't make sense. If you're willing to drop AC for DPS, then why stop at Heavy shield? Why not go all the way to THF so you can actually have some real DPS?


You didn't.

Totally not worth responding to line-by-line. You don't understand offtanking or the value of it. You don't know intimidate benchmarks. You don't know why Cleave / Great Cleave is actually an ok combo but just Cleave is horrible. You don't know AC benchmarks for offtanking. And finally, you don't read... as in I already answered that a Two-handed weapon would be better than going down to a heavy shield but for whatever reason the "iconic" player doesn't want to. Pay attention.

Val

[Borror0]

Honestly I have never played with Improved Sunder. I am assuming with the grazing hits system we will eventually start seeing bosses with really high AC and having someone in the party that can sunder their armor may lead to a lot more group DPS.

It's a bit too early to assume that.

I didn't calculate the AC but a properly built S&B Paladin should easily be able to hit AC in the 60's I'd think. In several raids this amounts to being hit quite a bit less and a lower burden on the healers.

That does not persuade me to pick up that character over a D&D DoS or a TWF KotC.

Tell me, what advantages is there for me to build this build that neither a DoS nor a KotC could fulfill better?

I do think that if someones ABSOLUTELY insists on making a S&B Paladin they should plan to maximize and pull out every bit of DPS they can get since they are already starting at a disadvantage.

How so?

[Angelus_dead]

Totally not worth responding to line-by-line. You don't understand offtanking or the value of it. You don't know intimidate benchmarks. You don't know why Cleave / Great Cleave is actually an ok combo but just Cleave is horrible. You don't know AC benchmarks for offtanking. And finally, you don't read...

No, it's you who isn't really worth my time to respond to.

However, for the sake of humor, what do you think the value of "offtanking" is? I know the answer- do you?

as in I already answered that a Two-handed weapon would be better than going down to a heavy shield but for whatever reason the "iconic" player doesn't want to. Pay attention.

Writing it twice doesn't make it not senseless.

If your position is that a person might be irrational and want to do things that make no sense, then there's no need to defend it with numbers. He's irrational, so he doesn't care.

[Borror0]

69 AC

Let me compare, to you, two dwarf builds. A DoS and a Stalwart Defender, both level 20.

Stalwart Defender:
10 Base
+15 Armor
+1 Alchemical
+9 Shield
+1 Alchemical
+7 Dex
+5 Protection
+5 Dodge (CG+CR)
+4 Insight
+3 Stalwart Defender
+5 Combat Expertise
65 unbuffed AC*
+3 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
69 self-buffed AC*
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Dodge
+2 Luck
+2 Natural Armor
83 buffed AC*

*+4 if in Defensive Stance

Defender of Siberys:
10 base
+15 Armor
+9 Shield
+2 Alchemical
+5 Dex
+5 Dodge (CR/DT+CG)
+1 Dodge feat
+5 Protection
+5 Combat Expertise
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Insight
67 unbuffed AC*
+3 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
71 self-buffed AC *
+4 Dodge (Inspire Heroics)
+2 Luck
+2 Natural Armor
79 buffed AC*

*+4 if in Defensive Stance

The difference is of only 4 points of AC. However note that yours is much lower.

Knight of the chalice S&B:
10 base
+15 Armor
+9 Shield
+2 Alchemical
+1 Dex
+5 Dodge (CR/DT+CG)
+5 Protection
+5 Aura of Good
+4 Insight
56 unbuffed AC*
+3 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
60 self-buffed AC *
+4 Dodge (Inspire Heroics)
+2 Luck
+2 Natural Armor
68 buffed AC*

*+4 if in Defensive Stance

The difference between your build's top AC and a Stalwart Defender's is 19. That means you're off the d20 unless the Stalwart Defender's 87 AC is overkill. It's also worthwhile to note that we have not yet discovered the Stalwart defender set which might increase that AC even more.

47 & 50 Intim are good numbers for offtanking.

Why would you want to build a tank to purposely offtank?

If you insist on being a S&B Pure Paladin you need to be able to at least fill an off-tank roll while maximizing your one-handed DPS.

That's not true at all. If you want to build a S&B character, of any kind, you have to ensure you can 1) grab aggro and 2) handle the aggro effectively.

I already answered that a Two-handed weapon would be better than going down to a heavy shield

You explained that more DPS was the purpose but you never explained why more DPS was more valuable in that instance than more AC.

Therefore, your explanation is incomplete.

[Comfortably]

1. We don't know if the devs will be stupid enough to leave Greater Destruction as-is.
2. If they do leave Greater Destruction around, they could assume you'll always use it, and give the bosses +8 AC to compensate.

No point of even having it then. I think your line of thinking is screwed up...the whole reason we have it is to help some builds hit mobs with higher AC.

[Borror0]

No point of even having it then. I think your line of thinking is screwed up...the whole reason we have it is to help some builds hit mobs with higher AC.

It helps everyone, and not just the low to-hit characters. Therefore, if it's implemented, the developerswill simply put their hard target's AC 8 point higher. If developers want low to-hit character to hit more, they'll only have to increase their to-hit. It's an MMO. The designers can do that if that's really a problem.

[Angelus_dead]

the whole reason we have it is to help some builds hit mobs with higher AC.

No. The reason for Greater Destruction is because some developer noticed "Hey, a lot of the older weapon effects are worthless at high level, because mobs always save. Someone should go through and create higher-level versions of the old stuff".

That made sense for Cursespewing and other things with a fixed DC, because the d20 roll is simply weapon vs monster. But for something like Destruction (or Shattermantle), the roll is player+weapon vs monster (an opposed attack roll or level check). A +4 bonus on a d20 isn't inherently worth less at level 20 than at level 10, because both attack bonus and enemy AC grow as you go up in levels.

In fact, since attack inevitably goes up at least +1 per level, while AC does not, we could conclude that it's AC that needs help staying competitive, so things like Greater Destruction are simply steps in the wrong direction.

[sephiroth1084]

Yeah, 69 AC. That's pitiful for level 20. Even at level 16, it'll take some begging to convince the bard to even waste a song on you.

You must play with some stingy bards, AD. I end up getting the AC song on characters that have no business even being considered for it (wizard) sometimes. Anyway, if there is a bard of sufficient level to be granting it, I doubt that someone who claims to be an off-tank would be left without the buff.

That said, I agree with most of the rest of AD's assessment: why design a character to be the alternate for any situation? You're aiming for being an off-tank? Cleave and Great Cleave don't make up in DPS enough to outweigh the benefits of CE and maybe Dodge for fulfilling an AC role, and don't take the place of Skill Focus or maybe even Bull Headed for intimidate.

I'm considering taking Cleave on my Fighter 2/Paladin 18 DoS since I'll be able to grab some serious aggro with 400%+ hate attacks, but I'll still have the intimidate to grab most stuff as well.

What's the point of off-tanking? Or, more specifically, trying to off-tank? I have always felt that off-tanking should be what happens when someone else is built/equipped better or in situations where a different sort of tank is required (DPS-aggro in VoD vs. turtle/intim), not a goal.

Yeah, you can make a S&B character and go KotC, but that doesn't mean you should ignore AC staples like CE, and if you do, to echo other sentiments already expressed, why bother with Tower Shields at all? Just take the heavy shield, and find some other way to add in DPS--you'll have some option for DR, and the "look" without blowing a feat.