Pure fighter the best ranged character now?

[wolfy42]

Hi everyone

Well I was playing around with ranged characters a bit on the beta server and I noticed something. Fighters can now get bow strength as a feat!!

You just need to snag weapon focus ranged and point blank shot...which are both needed for any good ranged build anyway...and you can now snag bow strength as well!!

While pure rangers eventually get 25% boost to all ranged attacks....fighters get a 10% boost to everything (equivalent to having the rangers bonus with 2 weapons..but works with S&B, two handed and ranged weapons as well). Both of those are long term bonuses though...the fighter of course gets fighter haste action boosts right from the start.

While the 10% speed bonus by itself does not compare to the 25% bonus of the ranger...the fighter can boost his ranged attacks drastically for short periods even at low lvls...while still getting the strength bonus of the ranger.

Rangers do gain rams might and of course favored enemy bonuses...which late game are especially useful, but the fighter can snag weapon spec/greater weapon spec, weapon specialization enhancements and now kensie bonuses to their ranged weapon as well.

In addition fighters gain bonuses to strength as well...and if your really specializing in ranged weapons a TON more feats to use on ranged attacks then a ranger does (of course the ranger gets the dual wield feats for free...so it more then evens out if you go for both...but if you use 2 handed weapons or s&B as backup instead of ranged...you have a ton more feats as a fighter.

At lvl 20 a fighter can get a net haste boost of 45% for short periods (including most of the duration of your manyshot...especially if you snag quickdraw) vs a rangers 25% haste boost.

Fighters gain 4 damage from specialization, 2 damage from enhancements, 2 damage from kensie bonuses (and 2 to hit as well), 2 damage possibly from +3 strength and +1 crit range. That is +10 damage per hit and a crit range increase for the fighter....and 10% attack speed boost universal for all weapons.....45% when using an action boost.

Rangers can get 3 damage from rams might, 10 base vs favored enemies, 3 additional from enhancements to favored enemies...and constant 25% ranged attack speed (10% attack speed with dual wielding if they snag tempest). So rangers end up with 16 total extra damage vs favored enemies.....3 more then a fighter....but only 3 extra damage vs all non-favored enemies....and they are behind the fighter all the way till lvl 20 pretty much even vs favored enemies.

The fighter can also go with a more defensive setup when enemies get near them, switching to a S&B setup and using a few more feats (of which they have plenty) to increase defense significantly in such situations. High ranged damage + a decent intimidate and good S&B defense makes for a good tank...with very high ranged damage (Especially burst ranged damage).

With quickdraw you can use an action boost and instantly use manyshot right afterwards.....meaning 19 seconds of your many shot will go off while under the fighter haste boost.

Fighters gain 11 bonus feats on top of their normal 7 normal feats....for a total of 18 or 19 as human. That is enough to take WF ranged/PBS/bow strength/rapid shot/dodge/mobility/SoTR/Manyshot/GWF ranged/WS ranged/GWS ranged/precise shot/improved precise shot and improved critical ranged.....and still have most of your normal feats.


Humans can boost strength another 2 points....and gain the nice human versatility bonuses as well (the damage bonus especially is nice in combo later on). After taking all of the above feats (14 in total) a human has 5 left to play around with. Quickdraw is probably a good idea to snag (it allows you to use action boosts with no delay, switch weapons instantly and allows you to attack with returning hammers (for high pierce resistant mobs like skellys) much faster). Which would leave you with just 4 feats to play around with. You'll want a toughness of course (at least one) for the extra hp which only leaves 3 feats left really.

Still 3 feats is enough to take all the TWF feats if you want....or specialize in THF or S&B if you want to go along with your excellent ranged damage. It is also enough to max out your dragonmarks if your a halfling for instance.

Anyway it seems to me that fighters for most of the game will out damage rangers at ranged combat now. Of course they don't get evasion like the ranger....but they can have a higher AC vs ranged attacks (at least if they are pure...no monk levels) and they don't need quite as many stats as the ranger.

A dwarven build for instance would have 1 less feat...and no +2 to strength from human bonuses (net of -2 damage compared to an elf) but could take additional dwarven shield block enhancements to go along with shield mastery feats and a tower shield (with tower shield mastery enhancements and armor mastery enhancements to reach a decent AC while turtleing up after ranging the enemies). Mobility enhancements can boost AC additionally while turtled to really make the fighter hard to hit.

So.....am I wrong...or is a fighter actually better at ranged attacks then a ranger even possibly at end game....while having the ability to be much more defensive once forced into melee combat then the ranger as well?

[Vivanto]

From a pure dps standpoint, yeah, kensai archers are probably slightly ahead of rangers.

However, they lack evasion, some spells, deepwood sniper / arcane archer. Deepwood is mehh, but I suspect in the future it may get better with tier 2-3, aa would be a nice alternative, but without spellcasting ability can't take those either.

[Uska]

I still think ranger will be better over all at ranged and yeah your fighter might be good defensively in the melee but your ranger will proably be better melee offense and evasion does count for alot plus self heal and buff. self barkskin resist and a few other choice spells add in what they might get for deepwoods/AA next tiers and who knows?

[wolfy42]

I think for a pure DPS standpoint the fighter specialized in bows will beat everyone else out end game right now for as long as Manyshot lasts at least. 20 seconds though is a very long time in most battles...especially when your attacking super fast and shooting 4 arrows at a time.

Without factoring in spell boosts etc...and saying both characters don't have haste going (no clue why not...just to make things easier)....the fighter at 20 has a 45% attack speed boost while using manyshot...and the ranger has a 25% attack speed boost.

The ranged will do more damage per shot vs favored enemies though which probably makes up for most of the difference...but the fighter will do MUCH more dmg versus anything that isn't a favored enemy of the ranger.

At earlier levels though this is much more noticable ....by level 6 for instance the fighter already can have strength bonus to attacks, weapon specialization (+2), weapon spec enhancement (+1), +1 from strength enhancements and +1 damage from Kensie bonus.

In addition by lvl 6 the fighter already has haste boost 2...for a 20% increase in attack speed...and the ranger has no attack speed boost at all (well 10% with two weapon combat if he took tempest...but I mean for ranged combat).

I admit...it blows to not have evasion.....but if your killing everything that you need evasion for at range.....it might not be that important (of course you need it for traps etc...so blah...but whatever...this is about ranged damage...not evasion).

[Vivanto]

I admit...it blows to not have evasion.....but if your killing everything that you need evasion for at range.....it might not be that important (of course you need it for traps etc...so blah...but whatever...this is about ranged damage...not evasion).

The thing you need evasion mostly also attacks from a distance. Evasion vs traps is useless for most classes anyway so that's moot point.

[wolfy42]

I still think ranger will be better over all at ranged and yeah your fighter might be good defensively in the melee but your ranger will proably be better melee offense and evasion does count for alot plus self heal and buff. self barkskin resist and a few other choice spells add in what they might get for deepwoods/AA next tiers and who knows?

The bonus of a pure rangers barkskin compared to a fighter AC wise is made up just from fighters armor mastery alone. It's only a 2 point AC difference between a potion and the full ranger spell.

Self healing is nice...but potions even are not exactly that expensive and it's not like rangers can use heal scrolls. The fighter could use a feat to snag SF UMD though and pump it up to eventually self heal fairly well.

Also if the fighter wants to take TWF...he ends up with the same attack speed boost long term as the ranger (10%) since it's a bonus for all weapons. You could be as offensive as the ranger with TWF if you wanted....but I think it makes more sense to be very defensive since you already have huge DPS with your bow.

Because of the fighter speed boosts....and the early boost to ranged damage from weapon spec, strength enhancements, weapon spec enhancements and kensie bonuses...the fighter should be ahead of the ranger till at least lvl 15 at which point the ranger will start to be ahead I think when fighting favored enemies (and the fighter isn't self hasted).

End game they both do similar amounts of damage...with the ranger doing 3 more on average vs favored enemies...and the fighter doing 10 more on average vs everything else (might be 13 I forget).

But getting to 20 would be much easier as the fighter and your ranged damage would be much higher along the way. In addition you are not forced into TWF when you melee like a ranger pretty much is. You can go S&B and really boost your DR significantly to turtle up when enemies get close to you. I think the ability to do the highest DPS in the game for 20 seconds and then turtle up extremely well sounds pretty nice.

Mobility with Fighter mobility 3 gives 10 extra AC (6 more then a ranger can get while tumbling) while still retaining all your turtle DR. Seems to me you get all the advantages of high ranger DPS....at least at range....but also get the ability to have extreme survivability as well.

[wolfy42]

The thing you need evasion mostly also attacks from a distance. Evasion vs traps is useless for most classes anyway so that's moot point.

Evasion vs spell attacks from range might not be as important if you can actually see the spellcasters. I think either equipment that gives true sight....or possibly boosting spot (or equipment that boosts it significantly) might be needed to take out spellcasters from range. Evasion would be very nice...but you can't get it as a pure fighter.

You give up 10% alacrity if you take anything but fighter levels...although going with 2 rogue levels might be worth it. You would gain evasion, maxed out UMD, a bit of sneak attack damage....a higher spot skill (think you could almost max both spot and UMD if you use a +2 tome at creation and time your second rogue level right). Skill boost to UMD as well from rogue skill action boost would allow for much higher UMD level early on (self healing pretty fast).

Still thats not a pure fighter...and your DPS would suffer for the addition of evasion. For pure DPS for most of the life of the character and vs the largest number of creatures I think the pure fighter wins....especially ifyou want to combine DPS with DR.

[wolfy42]

I've been testing it out a bit....I think I like the human build initially, but playing an elf has keeps you from needing a +3 tome to get improved precise shot....and you do as much damage with your bow attacks (+2 damage from elf enhancement vs higher strength as a human). The bonus to dex, and to bow AR as an elf helps as well.


Stats as an elf:

Str 18 (16)
Dex 18 (10)
Con 12 (06)
Int/Cha/Wis 08 (00)


Thats 2 less con then my human build had.....but 2 more dex. You don't even need a tome at all to reach pre-reqs with this build. A 28 point build could drop dex to 17 (just take and con to 10...and still not need a tome to reach pre-reqs.

Feats for the elf:

Lvl 1:

Power attack (Switched at lvl 4)
PBS

lvl 2: Rapid shot
Lvl 3: WF ranged weapons
Lvl 4: Switch power attack for weapon focus ranged. Grab Bow strength
Lvl 6: Weapn spec Ranged: Many shot
Lvl 8: Improved Crit Ranged
Lvl 9: GWF ranged
lvl 10: Precise shot (can take something else if you don't mind switching this at 12)
Lvl 12: Improved precise shot, Greater Weapon spec
Lvl 14+ feats are pretty much open. You have all the really important ranged feats at this point and you still get 6 more to play around with.

Power attack initially makes sense since using a great axe with your high strength at these levels will let you plow through everything in your sleep (a falchion I guess). Ranged damage pre lvl 4 is pretty paltry anyway especially for a fighter (no bow strength yet).

At lvl 4 though you get +1 to your strength from level up and you have +1 to strength from fighter enhancement already...giving you a 20 base strength (boosted to 24 all the time with bulls strength). That is a nice +7 damage, + 3 from your longbow (unless it's elemental then it's more) and +1 when enemies are within 30 feet. You also get your first specialization enhancement for another +1 and a +1 elf enhancement....so at lvl 4 you have +12-+13 damage per shot along with rapid shot and fighter haste 1. At this point you are already out damaging a ranger fairly well.

At lvl 6, you have added 1 more strength from enhancement, 2 more damage from specialization, 1 more damage from +4 longbow and you have double shots for 20 seconds a pop from many shot. You also have fighter haste boost 2....for a 20% increase in attack speed now (works with many shot...for a net increase of 240% (2 arrows at a time....means your base is 200%....boost that base by 20% means you are shooting 2.4 arrows in the time a normal character fires 1). At this point your damage is significantly higher then a rangers even vs favored enemies (although with enhancements included the ranger won't be that far behind. Total damage is now 15-16...and with a +3 strength item (think you can get linen wraps at this point) you have the full bulls strength bonus all the time without having to use potions/get buff).

At level 7 you snag elven damage enhancement II Bringing base bonus damage to 16-17

Lvl 8 adds another bonus from weapon (+5 longbow), +1 more damage from strength (with bulls or +4 strength item at this point). New base is 18-19.

By lvl 12 you have 3 arrows at a time from many shot, another 2 strength (enhancement at 10, and level bonus at 12), +3 damage from GWF and enhancement, improved precise shot to hit whole groups of enemies. Base bonus to damage and base damage bonus is at least 22-23. Even with a normal +5 bow at this point with many shot you would be shooting out 3x23-31 damage per shot....with a 30% attack speed boost from your fighter haste. Thats 69-93 damage on average per shot....already shooting faster then a pure ranger would at 20 (well probably not due to ranged attacks speeding up naturally as your BAB incrases...but it's not s huge increase (think it's 4% per 5 BAB or something.....so a pure lvl 20 ranger would shoot 3% faster then you at this point).

Once you get greensteel weapons etc the damage increases drastically of course...but by lvl 12 you really should be able to lay the smack down big time at least for short bursts (Which is often the most important!).

Of course if you switch to dwarf...you can go with the whole shield mastery/block setup later on....but you really need a +3 tome if your going the dwarf route.

Stats for the dwarf:

Str 18 (16)
Dex 16 (10)
Con 16 (06)
Int/wis/cha base)

You NEED to have a +3 tome read by lvl 12....or you have to sacrifice a level up stat to dex *boooooo*....to make it work for the dwarf.

On the positive side you can use the dwarven axe enhancement early on with a great axe...and possibly later on with S&B dwarven waraxe.

You....could I guess.....drop Con down to 13....and boost dex to 17......which would mean you only need a +2 tome (cake) by lvl 12. You could then just take Dwarven con 1 (Which you need for higher toughness anyway) to even it out. Without a 32 point build though it would be ugly.

If you go dwarf you gain the high DR later on....but lose out on 2 damage per bow shot..which is fairly significant (not to mention +1 to hit probably as well at least...and probably more due to bonus dex from race enhancement).

[Aesop]

Take a level of Bard and a level of Ranger that way you can get the Bow Strength, a Favored Enemy, UMD, and a Second PrE (Arcane Archer)

Thereby having

Kensai and Arcane Archer

although since you can take Bow Strength on the Fighter you may change Ranger With Rogue in the hopes of eventually getting level 21 and Evasion

Aesop

[Vivanto]

Thats 2 less con then my human build had.....but 2 more dex. You don't even need a tome at all to reach pre-reqs with this build.

Improved precise shot needs a base dex of 19.

[Aerendil]

Improved precise shot needs a base dex of 19.

16 base + 2 tome + 1 level up will do the trick.
Put the other 4 level ups into STR for a rounded stat and you're laughing.

i.e. STR 16 starting + 6 item + 4 level ups + 2 Ftr Str (Str3 is expensive) = 28 STR. Not counting bonuses such as Rage, Power Surge, etc, etc.
DEX 16 starting + 6 item + 1 level up + 2 tome + 1 racial (2 might be expensive) = 26 DEX. This should be enough to hit most things reasonably reliably.
(note - if you go /6 ranger, you can get +2 dex here too I believe)


I'd also be tempted to go the /2 Ranger route as well. You lose the capstone, but gain some important feats, and you can always use black dragon armor for the ranged alacrity bonus.

'Course, having that capstone to give you Tempest melee speed, as well as ranged speed, is nice.
It's just a royal PITA waiting 20 levels for it...

I think for me it would be a tossup between 12 Ftr / 6 Rng / 2 other (Kensai II and many free feats) or 18 Ftr (Kensai III) / 2 Rng.

[Vivanto]

16 base + 2 tome + 1 level up will do the trick.

Ofcourse, but from the context of his post, it implied that he assumed to take it with a 18 starting dex, without tomes and level ups.

[wolfy42]

Ofcourse, but from the context of his post, it implied that he assumed to take it with a 18 starting dex, without tomes and level ups.

That was for the elf build which starts with an 18 dex already...you only need a 19 to snag improved precise shot.

The elf started with 18 strength and 18 dex (only 12 con).

The dwarf starts with only a 16 though and needs a +3 tome by lvl 12.....but gains the ability to have high DR as backup when enemies get into melee range.

For a 28 point build though you could still go with an elf starting with:

18 str (16)
17 dex (08)
10 con (04))


And you don't lose too much.

Now I might be wrong but I thought you could take feats based on your stats after enhancement bonuses. If that is not true then you do need a +1 tome with the 32 point build and a +2 tome with the 28 point build by lvl 12.

+1 tomes are silly easy to get or buy.....but you could start with a 17 strength and 19 dex with the 32 point build if you want.....you would just eventually need a +4 strength tome to even your strength out.

As far as taking another class....you can take 2 levels and still get most of the fighter bonuses....you just loose the 10% alacrity capstone bonus. Still thats the equivalent of getting tempest automatically...but for all weapon combos.

It might be worth it though....especially if you decide to go human...and snag 2 rogue levels (grabbing evasion and by sacrificing a bit of strength and pumping int tons of important rogue skills as well).

If you were going to mix in other levels I'd go with fighter 18/rogue 2.....race human.

Probably grab SF UMD as one of the bonus feats at that point and go with starting stats of:

Str 16 (10)
Dex 16 (10)
Con 14 (06)
Int 14 (06)
Wis/Cha 08 (00)

Use a +2 int tome at level 2. and even you will get 6 skill points even on fighter levels allowing you to keep UMD maxed, Spot maxed and search/DD at about 75% of max (by timing second rogue level carefully. Also gives you decent hide/move silently, jump, balance, tumble, open locks to start which can be boosted to be useful for normal/hard quest at least with equipment and your human versatility skill boost even without boosting their base.

You drop in attack speed by 10% but not till level 20, gain evasion, 1d6 sneak attack damage and full scroll/wand and equipment using ability. You can easily handle traps on normal/hard difficulty and spot them on elite (not to mention spot hidden enemies from full range which you need with this build.

Hide/Movesilently even at base with your dex bonus will work just fine from range as well....so it might be worth it to sacrifice the fighter capstone bonus. You would lose out a bit on the ultimate General DPS though (I don't think anything does as much DPS end game vs any monster type as the pure fighter/bow kensi build at least as long as many shot/fighter haste boost lasts).

As human you do miss out on the +2 elven damage bonus....and this build starts with only 16 strength so the bonus from human enhancements does not mitigate that.....so you end up with both -2 damage per shot and -10% attack speed end game..although I guess really it's only something like 14-18 DPS loss which isn't that huge I guess.

While the evasion build might be better over all, I'd like to see the massive damage ranged build as well. It all comes down to how important evasion really is....and if you can get by end game without it. IF you have to have evasion...then add 2 rogue or 2 monk levels (rogue for UMD/spot, monk for wis bonus to AC (switch int in the above build with wisdom then), evasion, 1 bonus feat compared to fighter, centered AC bonus etc.

Short term Monk looks better, but long term the advantage of high UMD would probably make the rogue combo better over all (Especially if your going to solo at all). The fighter/rogue combo could probably solo most of the content in the game through hard difficulty at least (and most of the elite once you gain a few levels as well to boost your search/disarm enough at least till end game).

[Roman]

Pure fighters will be a lot of fun next mod, but poor saves (especially will save) keep me from rolling one.

And as far as ranged combat goes, the 25% ranger capstone is nice, but fighter haste boosts have nice synergy with manyshot. And few people will even bother ranging while manyshot is on cooldown anyway.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

From what I hear Rgrs are not actually getting the +25% originally advertised.

Makes the Ftr archer seem even more attractive now IMO.

[Blind_Skwerl]

From what I hear Rgrs are not actually getting the +25% originally advertised.

Makes the Ftr archer seem even more attractive now IMO.

Please say it isn't so! I have leveled up an elven pure ranger arcane archer ranged specialist, just waiting for mod 9 and the capstone.

[bobbryan2]

Is the fighter capstone a competance increase?

Cuz if so... You could do even better going 18 fighter/2 rogue and pick up UMD and evasion and just wear the arcane archer set bonus for the 10% boost.

[Angelus_dead]

Is the fighter capstone a competance increase?
Cuz if so... You could do even better going 18 fighter/2 rogue and pick up UMD and evasion and just wear the arcane archer set bonus for the 10% boost.

Yes, both Fighter and Ranger capstone are competence boosts.

But it would not be superior to use skip the capstone for the AA set when you could instead use both the Fighter capstone and the DWS set.

[Angelus_dead]

From what I hear Rgrs are not actually getting the +25% originally advertised.

Yes, that's what Rangers on Lamania have mentioned.

Also note that the developers have announced an intention to upgrade the Kensei longbow damage bonus from +2 to +4, although that won't make it for the mod 9 release.

[doppleganger]

Please say it isn't so! I have leveled up an elven pure ranger arcane archer ranged specialist, just waiting for mod 9 and the capstone.

Looks like it is actually around +15% shots

You might want to check the thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=185353