What exactly is an off-tank?

[Thanimal]

In the last few weeks, I feel like the biuld description "off-tank" has started appearing in many build posts.

I'd never seen this before, and I can't figure out what people mean by it.

It seems to me that melees either should be trying to control aggro and live (tank) or should be trying to kill everything as fast as possible (DPS). It's great if a build can perform very well in one role and adequately in the other, but I don't understand what this apparent 3rd role could be.

Can someone enlighten me? Or this basically just a stealthy name for "isn't very useful in this situation"?

[BLAKROC]

In the last few weeks, I feel like the biuld description "off-tank" has started appearing in many build posts.
Can someone enlighten me? Or this basically just a stealthy name for "isn't very useful in this situation"?

you already know that which you require

[Visty]

off-tank is just another word for support:

dps: fighters, barbs
support: rogue, ranger, bard, pala, monk
caster: cleric, wiz, sorc, fvs

on a mroe serious note:
if you cant get aggro and keep it somehow, youre an offtank
well, thats not true either:
high ac and intimi or hate > tank
high damage > dps
casts spells > caster
neither > off-tank

[KingOfCheese]

In the last few weeks, I feel like the biuld description "off-tank" has started appearing in many build posts.

I'd never seen this before, and I can't figure out what people mean by it.

It seems to me that melees either should be trying to control aggro and live (tank) or should be trying to kill everything as fast as possible (DPS). It's great if a build can perform very well in one role and adequately in the other, but I don't understand what this apparent 3rd role could be.

Can someone enlighten me? Or this basically just a stealthy name for "isn't very useful in this situation"?

I think it has multiple meanings. And multiple types of characters that can fill the role--some of which are uber and some of which maybe not so much.

I consider an off tank to be a 2nd tank that might not have the full skills to be a 1st tank (usually in reference to a lower intim, ac, dr, saves, or hp).

A classic raid where this may come up is VOD. The main tank (say a super intim) has the pit fiend occupied. If a 2nd tank is available, the 2nd tank can grab the 2nd round of orthons and make this portion of the raid potentially easier.

Now who is that 2nd tank?

A 14/1/1 ranger/rogue/monk could fill this role--with solid ac and an intim sufficient to always get the orthons (but rarely the pit fiend). Not a main tank--but a very good 2nd tank. When not being the 2nd tank, this build can be a dps machine.

A jack-of-all trades fighter might also fill this role. Decent AC, decent intim, etc., etc., but not good enough to reliably be the main tank. Perfect for the orthons though. This type of build might not be uber dps though--and might not be a specialist that stands out as "top of the game" for any particular task. These types of builds can be very fun to play and find use in many quests--but take a lot of heat from the min/max crowd in terms of raid roles.

Many other builds can be the 2nd tank.

So my definition is: a build that can be a back-up tank, but that is not built to be a main tank; ideally it is built to serve the group in some other substantial way when not temporarily playing the 2nd tank.

[baddax]

An off tank can also be a secondary or backup tank. Somewhere in between Tank and DPS.

[bobbryan2]

dps: fighters, barbs
support: rogue, ranger, bard, pala, monk
caster: cleric, wiz, sorc, fvs

It should be closer to...

DPS: Fighters, barbs, rogue, ranger, paladin, bard
No use to party: monk
caster: cleric, wiz, sorc, fvs, bard

[baddax]

An off tank can also be a tank not ready ( because of Gear and crafted items) to be the main tank.

[bobbryan2]

An off tank can also be a secondary or backup tank. Somewhere in between Tank and DPS.

How is that even useful in DDO? it's more a code way of saying, "not really that effective"

[baddax]

How is that even useful in DDO? it's more a code way of saying, "not really that effective"

I think King of cheese's post was clearer.

[Shade]

It's a term that makes more sense for other MMOs.

Doesn't mean much for DDO at all given it's overall style.

For most MMOs it means the secondary tank(s).. You have the main boss tank, then the off-tanks to pick up any trash and keep it busy. It's an important role because even the trash add mobs can and will quickly kill your DPS/Casters.

In DDO, such a role is usually pretty silly given allmost all trash mobs are either not enough of a threat to tank, or just not really tankable since they just aoe/cleave everyone anyways.

[Thanimal]

How is that even useful in DDO? it's more a code way of saying, "not really that effective"

Well, that's kinda what I was getting at. But actually I think KoC did a good job of explaining what it could mean: A build that is designed for a different role (and is good at it!), but that can be called upon in a pitch to impersonate a tank. I can see how that's a feature worth mentioning.

I'm not quite sure this should have a name, because it's not really a role. The role is still tank, so I think I'd call this "can be a suboptimal tank if needed." But I have to admit that "suboptimal-tank" is a little clunkier than "off-tank."

[Thanimal]

It's a term that makes more sense for other MMOs.

Doesn't mean much for DDO at all given it's overall style.

For most MMOs it means the secondary tank(s).. You have the main boss tank, then the off-tanks to pick up any trash and keep it busy. It's an important role because even the trash add mobs can and will quickly kill your DPS/Casters.

In DDO, such a role is usually pretty silly given allmost all trash mobs are either not enough of a threat to tank, or just not really tankable since they just aoe/cleave everyone anyways.

Ah, thanks. That context helps me quite a lot. I'm not very familiar with the details of any other MMO.

[bobbryan2]

I think King of cheese's post was clearer.

I'm still not seeing the usefulness after reading his post.

There are like 3 quests that really benefit from having a "tank." The idea of making a character to be the backup tank in those quests kinda boggles my mind a little bit.

I can understand trying to give a melee DPS some survivability. But I still put a 14/1/1 build in the DPS category, even with high ac and evasion. Going slightly lower DPS in order to maximize defense doesn't suddenly mean you're not filling a melee DPS archetype.

[wamjratl1]

I'm thinking "off-tank" doesn't so much relate to the build or the character, but rather to how they are used in the quest at hand. Example, two tanks in a VoD run. Identical builds and gear setups (played by two genetically identical players with the same exact playstyle). One is designated Main Tank and he keeps Sully in the corner, while the other is designated the Off-Tank cuz he is in charge of keeping the Orthons aggroed while the party beats them down.

But yeah maybe there's a "tank type" who maybe threw a few points into UMD or Listen or something. Even though in many cases he can tank, in raid situations, he's gonna be the off-tank cuz his AC and Intimidate aren't as high as they should be.

Also, Timp is often the off-tank cuz he's usually off tanked somewhere...

[Borror0]

Can someone enlighten me?

If you read this in a build description, it's synonymous for "dead weight" because it's not something you build for unless it's "can off tank well while primarily being a good DPS build" or something of the sort. Basically, it's a "character whose assigned task is to keep the attention (aggro) of any creature besides the group/raid's primary target" as WoWwiki says.

Though, I don't know why anyone would talk about that in a build description since I can't think of a place where that's useful except maybe some Vision strategies.

[Angelus_dead]

Can someone enlighten me? Or this basically just a stealthy name for "isn't very useful in this situation"?

There's some truth to that guess.

In MMORPG tradition, "offtank" is a role, not a career. It's something a character does because it's what the party needs right now, not because it's what he really wanted to do. When a group has two tank builds in it, one of them is assigned as the Main Tank who will hold aggro from the primary boss enemy, and the other is relegated to Off Tank.

The most important job of an Off Tank is the same as for a Vice President: you're there to take over in case something happens to the real one. The OT should be paying attention so that if the MT dies or disconnects, he will sprint to the boss and prevent it from attacking anyone else in the group. That's better than the raid falling into chaos.

In addition, the OT will pick up aggro from any other mobs that happen to come along while you're busy fighting the main target. That's a more common worry in a non-instanced open world game than in DDO, but it can still happen what with the scripted summons in some DDO raids. You've probably seen MT/OT used to refer to the players holding Suulomades and the Orthons in VOD.

[SableShadow]

Off-tank is a role more than a build.

If I'm grabbing a bunch of agro that was headed for the clerics, and dance it around the main tank while working on one mob, and don't become a mana sponge, I'm off-tanking.

[KingOfCheese]

I'm still not seeing the usefulness after reading his post.

There are like 3 quests that really benefit from having a "tank." The idea of making a character to be the backup tank in those quests kinda boggles my mind a little bit.

I can understand trying to give a melee DPS some survivability. But I still put a 14/1/1 build in the DPS category, even with high ac and evasion. Going slightly lower DPS in order to maximize defense doesn't suddenly mean you're not filling a melee DPS archetype.

I agree with you if the 2nd tank is the "build" (everything designed to fit this role). I more see the term "off tank" to refer to a temporary role that is played. I play this role a bit on my ranger in many quests. VOD is an obvious one. But this comes in handy as well during zergs where the party splits up. I can hold agro on mobs in a firewall or while a caster mows them down. I'd say any time I am hitting intim and knowing I can take the beating (which happens a lot), I am playing the role of off tank (or just tank)--but I wouldn't call this build a tank because it's not optimized to go one on one with the bosses the way a classic tank is.

[Angelus_dead]

Though, I don't know why anyone would talk about that in a build description since I can't think of a place where that's useful except maybe some Vision strategies.

The reason would be that he attempted to design a tank build and failed to get high enough Intimidate for Suulomades (such as by being a pure paladin/monk).

So to deflect accusations about being unable to tank a raid boss, he set the expectations lower by calling it an "Off Tank". That's like pre-emptively admitting defeat.

For an alternative perspective, if someone made a DPS or soloer build and tossed some extra skillpoints into Intim, he might add the "Off Tank" label to advertise one extra capability it would have if that happens to be needed.

Whichever way you look at it, the core meaning in a build description is the same: "not enough to be a main tank"

[Fenrisulven6]

I think I just ran with an off-tank? Mutliple Giants and Orange named Giant. Tank intimis the lesser Giants, allowing my rouge to slip under his aggro and do massive backstab. Off-tank took the Orange Giant off to the side so we could deal with him later. Does that meet the definition?

And yes, it was very useful. Kept our main tank [and me] from getting squished.