What exactly is an off-tank?

[Riggs]

The word 'tank' means different things to different people. People who play other MMOs use it because of the way some games play, most DDO people tend to just call any melee a tank now, and the 'main' thanks is the guy fighting Sulo, everyone else is the 'off tanks'. And considering the ability of many two weapon types to be able to have a high AC AND have a higher dps than some old fighter with a shield say - the terms tank and dps really are pretty fuzzy in DDO anyway.

There are only a couple quests/raids in the game where having the 'optimal tank' matters at all really.

In 95% of the rest of the game, someone who is an 'off tank' - as defined by having the numbers to be able to tank the Vod boss - can excell, and possibly even solo most quests as the 'main tank'.

Or...people can show their snobbishness at every build that cant tank the single raid they might care about, and make fun of 95% of the players builds that dont fit their elite standards.

Basically anyone who plays the game regularly knows what people mean when they talk about an off tank. Posting about it in a snobby, deriding tone only serves to salve someones ego and try and prove they are better apparently because they dont have 'off tanks'.

I am guessing someone had one or more bad experiences with bad players, or bad builds trying to do something they couldnt, and decided to come air their grievances about it on the forums.

[KingOfCheese]

The reason would be that he attempted to design a tank build and failed to get high enough Intimidate for Suulomades (such as by being a pure paladin/monk).

So to deflect accusations about being unable to tank a raid boss, he set the expectations lower by calling it an "Off Tank". That's like pre-emptively admitting defeat.

I have DEFINITELY seen the term used in that context. Lol. So a 2nd definition emerges: A tank that will eventually be re-rolled, turned into a bank toon, or otherwise fade quietly away over time.

[Riggs]

I'm still not seeing the usefulness after reading his post.

There are like 3 quests that really benefit from having a "tank." The idea of making a character to be the backup tank in those quests kinda boggles my mind a little bit.

I can understand trying to give a melee DPS some survivability. But I still put a 14/1/1 build in the DPS category, even with high ac and evasion. Going slightly lower DPS in order to maximize defense doesn't suddenly mean you're not filling a melee DPS archetype.

So..designing a melee that can 'off tank' in 3 quests boggles the mind....but designing a 'tank' that is really only 'optimal' in 3 quests doesnt?

Yeah...cause someone that can play the other few hundred quests well must be a really bad build I guess.

Calling a 14/1/1 build dps is fine, but if they have the same AC as a 'tank', then the only thing separating them is the Intimidate. High AC and evasion = tank.

[Borror0]

So..designing a melee that can 'off tank' in 3 quests boggles the mind....but designing a 'tank' that is really only 'optimal' in 3 quests doesnt?

A good post-Module 6 tank, pre-Module 9 tank can deal as much DPS as a DPS character of the same class but still be able to main tank effectively.

Now, of course, the PrEs mess with this by creating an unrecoverable divisions.

That's like pre-emptively admitting defeat.

Sums it up.

[EKKM]

In DDO, a lot of people refer to a tank as a DPS character. When I read "off-tank" in a build I assume that they mean it can do DPS but not as well as a primary melee. That character usually performs some other role primarily. Battle clerics are a good example of an "off-tank".

[Riggs]

Apparently people define a tank in DDO as 'one who can main tank Vod'.

So sacrificing versatility and dps for the sake of being able to fill a single roll in a single quest is the only worthy 'tank', and everyone else should...reroll?

That sounds like a lot of fun if you only ever play that single quest over,and over and over again, and dont play the other 99% of the quests where other builds excell anyway.

Since my 0-intimidate ranger has main tanked, and off tanked Vod, I am glad I never bothered to make that boring tank build that would be sub-optimal in the other 99% of the game.

..and I guess by the snobby off-tank definition here - I should also reroll my 60-65 ac battle cleric that can off tank Vod as well....cause he doesnt have intimidate and thats the only thing that matters....

Wow and people say DDO isnt fun. Being a tank sounds great.

[Thanimal]

Posting about it in a snobby, deriding tone only serves to salve someones ego and try and prove they are better apparently because they dont have 'off tanks'.

I am guessing someone had one or more bad experiences with bad players, or bad builds trying to do something they couldnt, and decided to come air their grievances about it on the forums.

Wow, what a strange way to interpret my post. I just read it again and I can't see where you're getting any of this. I clearly stated that I was unfamiliar with this term (which perhaps you assumed was simply a lie?) and wanted to understand it.

The question has since been very usefully answered. My thanks to those who helped answer it, including you.

Now I know.

[78mackson]

In the last few weeks, I feel like the biuld description "off-tank" has started appearing in many build posts.

I'd never seen this before, and I can't figure out what people mean by it.

It seems to me that melees either should be trying to control aggro and live (tank) or should be trying to kill everything as fast as possible (DPS). It's great if a build can perform very well in one role and adequately in the other, but I don't understand what this apparent 3rd role could be.

Can someone enlighten me? Or this basically just a stealthy name for "isn't very useful in this situation"?

I have no idea why the DDO-community uses this word. DDO doesnt even require a traditional tank in the first place(not saying intimidate is worthless).. I will change my mind on this subject once the red named can 1 or 2-shot anything not wearing a shield...

basicly, in other games an off-tank can replace the real "homer simpson-tank" for short bursts(usually between cooldowns) or run around with adds.

[KingOfCheese]

So..designing a melee that can 'off tank' in 3 quests boggles the mind....but designing a 'tank' that is really only 'optimal' in 3 quests doesnt?

Yeah...cause someone that can play the other few hundred quests well must be a really bad build I guess.

Calling a 14/1/1 build dps is fine, but if they have the same AC as a 'tank', then the only thing separating them is the Intimidate. High AC and evasion = tank.

I am a fan of all of these builds. There are many tank builds that cannot reliably hit the big 3. Many were not designed to do so. Which is fine. These builds are very fun to play and can play the tank role in a lot of the game content. However, some were designed to do so and failed (these are probably the hardest builds to get right--there is so much balance involved and so many tomes and so much gear to get these designed right). These fails sometimes end up lingering and getting call "off tank." For those whose goal was to tank the big-3, these typically get rerolled (with much regret) for another shot at it.

I don't think it is crazy to build a character for those 3 quests: they are the ones that are most frequently run at end game by many players. Many players largely only run these 3. So optimizing for them makes sense. Likewise, many players run the rest of the content a lot and the non-big-3 optimized builds work great there. A lot of people avoid these 3 quests--so no need to optimize for them (although a tank optimized for the big 3 kicks major butt in all quests).

[binnsr]

Now I know.

And knowing is half the battle!


My heavy metal battlemage is a fine example of what I consider to be an off-tank.
No, he's not a super-optimized killing machine, and no, his AC isn't in the stratosphere, but he can fill several roles in a party -- from your caster needs, to a second source of DPS, to popping locks.
buffs? check
firewalls? check
pop locks? check
swings a big sword? check (will be better at this in mod9 since he's WF )
evasion? check
scares pugs with his class splits? check
solo harry or sulo? sorry bro.. not this guy

[Varr]

When I think of an off tank, I think of two things........

A melée build that shouldn't be holding agro due to hp/ac but does dps and does improve the surrounding melée....most Pali's and Monks fall into the catagory

And melée that rely or are vastly improves by backstab damage......rogues and exploiteds and almost any melée with vod goggs.

[Angelus_dead]

Apparently people define a tank in DDO as 'one who can main tank Vod'.

Hello, newsflash:
There are only a few places in DDO where it is important to perform the traditional MMORPG "tank" job by standing there letting a boss hit you while other people damage it. So if someone makes a "tank" character who can't handle it in those couple places where tanks are needed... what was the point?

You provided various examples of a zero Intimidate character being successful in assorted situations. That character is not relevant to the topic, since he wouldn't have been described by the builder as an "off tank". Like I said before, "off tank" is something you do when it's needed, not something you should plan to be as the definition of a character.

Almost anyone can hold aggro on the VOD Orthons; that's nothing to be proud of. So if a person advertises that as a capability of his character, it makes you wonder about all the things he can't do.

[Thanimal]

And knowing is half the battle!

Oh man! I should go see G.I. Joe this weekend, since I'll be home alone. (But not sure I want to cut into DDO time...)

[Borror0]

I should go see G.I. Joe this weekend, since I'll be home alone.

Why would you do that?

If you are looking for a reason to gouge your eyeball, Internet can provide you one without leaving your house.

[Rilean]

What is an off tank. I think its obvious,

The answer - A tank with bad BO :P

[krud]

An off-tank could be someone like my 8rog/6ftr/2pal (going 12rog/6ftr/2pal). He's a fully capable trapsmithing rogue, with max search, spot, dd, ol, umd, and a reflex save as good as many pure rogues, yet he's got enough ac, hp, and straight up dps to fill in the role of fighter in many quests (except main raid boss tank). He excels when he is not the main tank with aggro, but can function well enough when he has aggro to fill in a melee spot, and if I could redo skills he could even do intimitank (bluff?? what was I thinking?).

Any pure or mainly pure melee build who advertises as an offtank is doing something wrong.

[Monkey_Archer]

In the context of DDO i would think an "off-tank" is any melee that can fill a tanking role if a "real tank" is not available. And/or be a secondary tank (eg. orthon intim for VOD).

Typically, any dps spec'd Fighter, Barb or some Paladins could be an off-tank (usually have enough hp and damage mitigation)
Dps spec'd rogues and rangers (unless they are ac rangers) usually would not perform a tanking role.

[Giantsbane]

In the last few weeks, I feel like the biuld description "off-tank" has started appearing in many build posts.

I'd never seen this before, and I can't figure out what people mean by it.

It seems to me that melees either should be trying to control aggro and live (tank) or should be trying to kill everything as fast as possible (DPS). It's great if a build can perform very well in one role and adequately in the other, but I don't understand what this apparent 3rd role could be.

Can someone enlighten me? Or this basically just a stealthy name for "isn't very useful in this situation"?

All elven and halfling tanks fall in this category.

[bobbryan2]

So..designing a melee that can 'off tank' in 3 quests boggles the mind....but designing a 'tank' that is really only 'optimal' in 3 quests doesnt?

Yeah...cause someone that can play the other few hundred quests well must be a really bad build I guess.

Calling a 14/1/1 build dps is fine, but if they have the same AC as a 'tank', then the only thing separating them is the Intimidate. High AC and evasion = tank.

I didn't state my opinions on someone who's only optimal in 3 quests. I'm just saying... tanks that can't do anything other than Intim are almost useless... and if you're making a backup to that...

[Yajerman01]

I think it has multiple meanings. And multiple types of characters that can fill the role--some of which are uber and some of which maybe not so much.

I consider an off tank to be a 2nd tank that might not have the full skills to be a 1st tank (usually in reference to a lower intim, ac, dr, saves, or hp).

A classic raid where this may come up is VOD. The main tank (say a super intim) has the pit fiend occupied. If a 2nd tank is available, the 2nd tank can grab the 2nd round of orthons and make this portion of the raid potentially easier.

Now who is that 2nd tank?

A 14/1/1 ranger/rogue/monk could fill this role--with solid ac and an intim sufficient to always get the orthons (but rarely the pit fiend). Not a main tank--but a very good 2nd tank. When not being the 2nd tank, this build can be a dps machine.

A jack-of-all trades fighter might also fill this role. Decent AC, decent intim, etc., etc., but not good enough to reliably be the main tank. Perfect for the orthons though. This type of build might not be uber dps though--and might not be a specialist that stands out as "top of the game" for any particular task. These types of builds can be very fun to play and find use in many quests--but take a lot of heat from the min/max crowd in terms of raid roles.

Many other builds can be the 2nd tank.

So my definition is: a build that can be a back-up tank, but that is not built to be a main tank; ideally it is built to serve the group in some other substantial way when not temporarily playing the 2nd tank.

Aluecian fits the 2nd Tank roll and is often called upon when the primary tank fails but moreso when "another" survivable build is required to offset or mitigate damage.

MINI-Me build is noted in my sig. :P