Need some build help plz on Pali/Ranger hybrid

[RavenStormclaw]

I am retooling my characters for this brave new world of DDO:EU. I was wanting to make a new Paladin but one with a few specifics in mind: TWF with some great if not situational DPS and more importantly be nearly resistant to spells. I hate stat damage and level drains above all else I think it just annoying.

So I started with a Paladin because its my prefered class anyway and they have awesome saves. Threw in dwarf because of their innante resistances any way and finished it off (so far) with ranger for Tempest I. Added Hunter of Dead II for energy drain immunity and free ghost touch and restoration spell.

I will present the build as its stand then my dilemma:

Level 18 Pali 12 Ranger 6 LG Dwarf

Stats
Starting Ending(with common enhancement, items, spells)

Str 16 (30)
Dex 15 (24) includes +2 tome
Con 14 (22)
Int 8 (8)
Wis 12 (18)
Chr 12 (20) includes +2 favor tome

Hp: 376 with standard gear, toughnes and racial and pali tougness I

Saves:
Base With gear and enhancements With gear,enh and FE Previous + undead
F21 35 36 38
R18 32 33 35
W 12 26 27 29

Gear included in calculatons include relevant +6 stat items and +5 resistancd item
Enhancements include Dwarven Spell defense III and Paladin resistance of good II
Favored enemies: undead and evil outsider

Feats so far: Tempest prereqs, Power attack, GTWF, and IC: slashing

Relevant enhancements: FE attack I , damage II
Exalted Smite II
Divine Sacrafice I

So what have I got: absolutely stunning saves especially against evil outsiders and undead, and decent dps even better against the two FE.

What I don't have UMD or Evasion. Really could care less about UMD for this build. Evasion is a though.

I have two left over levels and have run the numbers six different ways. I can't figure out what is the best for theese last two levels: Pali for zeal, ranger for self bark, rouge for evasion, monk for the feats?

Some thoughts and suggestions would be helpfull as well as ways to improve the build. I like the concept and think it will work.

Thanks

[Thanimal]

I didn't get past "hate level draining." The solution to that is simple: Warforged have complete immunity to level drain.

[Thanimal]

14 is kinda the magic level for Paladin DPS because of Zeal. So if you're OK without Evasion, and aiming for peak DPS, you almost certainly want Paladin 14/Ranger 6.

But from your intro, it seems to me you're actually more interested in survivability than peak DPS. If that's the case, two very interesting (imo) builds with fantastic saves and overall survivability, along with situationally good DPS are The Hurtlocker and The Valenar Crusader. (When I updated this I didn't bother to link Hurtlocker because it's a WF.)

[RavenStormclaw]

I didn't get past "hate level draining." The solution to that is simple: Warforged have complete immunity to level drain.

Yes they do but I don't want a warforged for my own personal reasons.

[Alcides]

Personally, I'd go Elf (Scimitars) or Drow (Rapiers) for the next mod. Hit points will be slightly lower, but you'll have a much higher crit frequency. Also, it will be easier to get Divine Might 2.

Also, you might as well go 14 Paladin/6 Ranger so you can stack Zeal and Tempest for Haste.

You could also get a lot of mileage from 2 monk/18 paladin and give up ranger levels entirely.

[bobbryan2]

Basically your two real choices are..

12 pal/6 rgr/2 monk
or
14 pal/6 rgr

The former has more survivability, the latter has substantially more DPS. Depends on what you want to do with the character.

Also... Unless you're just wanting to go dwarf, I don't think that's the best race for either choice. The former wil be unarmored, unable to benefit from DAM, and though the 14 pal/6 rgr can use full plate... you're probably not overly concerned with AC. And there are better races for DPS... halfling, warforged... even human.

[Thanimal]

Yes they do but I don't want a warforged for my own personal reasons.

Ya know, I can't believe how many people say that. I guess I'm just too performance-oriented or something. I can't figure out why anybody would list out what they want from a build and exclude the option that makes it easiest to achieve.

Oh well, even I know the game is about fun, so if it's just not fun for you to play a WF, take a look at M_A's Valenar Crusader.

[Varr]

If comfortable with feats and not ac/ce focused, I like what two rogue offer. Little back attack and rogue attack speed boosts to cut into the lost zeal and evasion of course. Extra skill points will pay for a free capped umd basicly also. Three very diff builds IMO though....max dps, maxed ac, and maxed survivability and flexability off tankage......which appears to be this build.

[Thanimal]

Also... Unless you're just wanting to go dwarf, I don't think that's the best race for either choice. The former wil be unarmored, unable to benefit from DAM, and though the 14 pal/6 rgr can use full plate... you're probably not overly concerned with AC. And there are better races for DPS... halfling, warforged... even human.

Agree. Actually Dwarf might be my very last pick here. Its strengths don't really come into play, and it eats a -2 CHA penalty that doesn't seem to be made up by something worthwhile. If you go 14/6, I think Human with Khopesh is the fairly clear pick (given that WF is off the table). If you throw in Monk levels, that's enough extra feats that halfling or elf or drow could all be made to work well, with different relative strengths.

[RavenStormclaw]

Well if you are talking about saves vs spells which is one of my primary req's dwarves are the way to go. 6 AP for +3 saves vs spells across the board whehter they be reflex, fortitiude or will based and they have innate spell resistance built in. Warforged do have free immunity to energy drain and don't have to fear being held i agree but are still as vulnerable to other spell types as any other race save dwarves.

Drow do get spell resistance I agree but high level mobs can break thru that and it doens't stop AOE spells.

Halflings can get +3 to all three save types but at a significant cost higher then the 6 AP for dwarves.

I am thinking either monk/rogue for evasion making this guy basically immune to any spell type damage or going 14 pali for zeal.

Edit: I don't see how dwarven spell resistance can be ignored. The minus 2 charisma penalty lead to a net 1 loss of chraimsa modifier save vs 3 from full line of dwarven resistance thus a net gain of +2

[Thanimal]

Well if you are talking about saves vs spells which is one of my primary req's dwarves are the way to go. 6 AP for +3 saves vs spells across the board whehter they be reflex, fortitiude or will based and they have innate spell resistance built in. Warforged do have free immunity to energy drain and don't have to fear being held i agree but are still as vulnerable to other spell types as any other race save dwarves.

Drow do get spell resistance I agree but high level mobs can break thru that and it doens't stop AOE spells.

Halflings can get +3 to all three save types but at a significant cost higher then the 6 AP for dwarves.

I am thinking either monk/rogue for evasion making this guy basically immune to any spell type damage or going 14 pali for zeal.

Edit: I don't see how dwarven spell resistance can be ignored. The minus 2 charisma penalty lead to a net 1 loss of chraimsa modifier save vs 3 from full line of dwarven resistance thus a net gain of +2

I think the "problem" is that your saves are ludicrous in such a build. Save on 2 is the best you can do in DDO, so +35 and +45 are the same in nearly all situations (except against Elite traps, but Dwarven bonus doesn't apply to those anyhow). I haven't detailed out this particular build, but Kaleos and I were goofing with a Halfling Paladin 12/Ranger 6/Monk 2 idea at one point, and its saves were so good that investing in any save enhancements was a complete waste.

My intuition (not yet backed by analysis) is that you're in the same boat here.

Believe me, I LOVE the Dwarven spell save line. It's about 80% of the reason I prefer Dwarf with my Axesinger build. SAVES RULE. But at some point, more does little or nothing.

Final note: Paladins usually end up REALLY tight on enhancements, and you're going for 2 PrEs here which makes things even worse. Given that saves will never be the weakpoint of this build, I think justifying putting points into them is actually going to be really hard.

[bobbryan2]

Well if you are talking about saves vs spells which is one of my primary req's dwarves are the way to go. 6 AP for +3 saves vs spells across the board whehter they be reflex, fortitiude or will based and they have innate spell resistance built in. Warforged do have free immunity to energy drain and don't have to fear being held i agree but are still as vulnerable to other spell types as any other race save dwarves.

Drow do get spell resistance I agree but high level mobs can break thru that and it doens't stop AOE spells.

Halflings can get +3 to all three save types but at a significant cost higher then the 6 AP for dwarves.

I am thinking either monk/rogue for evasion making this guy basically immune to any spell type damage or going 14 pali for zeal.

Edit: I don't see how dwarven spell resistance can be ignored. The minus 2 charisma penalty lead to a net 1 loss of chraimsa modifier save vs 3 from full line of dwarven resistance thus a net gain of +2

So Dwarves have a +1 to saves vs spells as opposed to a halfling or drow, and +2 for others. And that's something that can't be ignored?

I dunno man.. Pallies aren't hurting in the saves department. Once you're saving on 2's, it doesn't matter. Also the charisma hit can be substantial if you start thinking about trying to qualify for Divine Might 3 for DPS.

[RavenStormclaw]

Interesting thought I hadn't considered... making the saves to good. I guess your are right if a 35 will save on 2 vs all spells then going higer is pointless.

For the record as the build stands currently I have qualified for both Tempetst I and Hunter of the Dead II. Also have been able to take both the divine sacrafcie and exalted smites line. The only this I will miss out on DM III; however, DM II and dwarven axe damage II equates to the same thing but only slihglty better since the axe damage is always on.

I see all your points but lets assume I am comitted to the build (not that I am) so what 2 levels would you take? Since that was one of my original questions.

[Thanimal]

I'd take 2 Monk levels. I'm addicted to Evasion and the feats are great since Paladins are feat-starved. Second choice would be 2 Rogue for SA, but it can be hard to maintain SA status on a good DPS build.

Final choice would be 14/6 -- the best steady DPS package but not offering Evasion.

[bobbryan2]

Interesting thought I hadn't considered... making the saves to good. I guess your are right if a 35 will save on 2 vs all spells then going higer is pointless.

For the record as the build stands currently I have qualified for both Tempetst I and Hunter of the Dead II. Also have been able to take both the divine sacrafcie and exalted smites line. The only this I will miss out on DM III; however, DM II and dwarven axe damage II equates to the same thing but only slihglty better since the axe damage is always on.

I see all your points but lets assume I am comitted to the build (not that I am) so what 2 levels would you take? Since that was one of my original questions.

It depends on what you want to do with him.

If you're going to do a lot of raiding with a full backup of healers. I'd do the 14/6. The extra DPS will benefit the group more. You're not exactly squishy without evasion, considering you'll have 3-4 lay on hands for 150-200 or so.

If you're going to be running more quests with short manning and the like, personal survivability becomes more important. In that case I'd go 2 monk.

[RavenStormclaw]

Than and Bobby thanks. Its been most enlightening. This toon is third in line to be made so I've got a while yet. I am leaning toward 14/6 for the dps. Zeal + tempest + haste should be fun.

[BlackRage]

Pali for zeal, ranger for self bark, rouge for evasion, monk for the feats?

Pal14 is best bang for the buck: Zeal as mentioned and even better Holy Sword so no need for Greensteel weapons.

If feats are needed Monk is good option, but then Fighter might be better as well for full BAB.

Rog UMD and Evasion is nice with high CHA.

[Aranticus]

whatever it is, get the 6 rgr before L18

[RavenStormclaw]

I think Pali 14 ranger 6 will be the end result. DPS should be good and survivability high. I am planning the build so I hit ranger 6 at level 9 thus able to take Tempest and IC: slashing at the same time.

[InfidelofHaLL]

i know i got a human 8 pally 6 ranger 2 monk atm dual khopesh- great dps and great surviablity will end up 12 6 2 KotC II and Tempest I