Gov't programs........ ?

[smatt]

This is a very complicated issue.... Clouded by the usual politcal scare tactics, lies, and downright dishonesty.... The real issues typicalyl dont' ever get discussed because morons buy into the "Death Panel" type **** put out there by liars and propaganidists like Sara Palin, and Rush "Mr. Greed" Limbutt, and yes of course the far left does the same thing... Single payer is off the table and nevr had any chance... What's the best answer, who knows.... But I'll tell you, our current system is a mess... While it does have it's good points, it's too expensive as a whole... And the origianl poster... You question why we should pay for the people who refuse to work etc... You do realize we're already doing it, don't you... Except instead of the cheaper far more effective method of having preventive cae availble, very simple problems turn into BIG expensive problems treated in an overburdended emergency room system....


Fact of the matter is a healthier population in the long run pays far more dividends then the money spent to get to that point.... I hear allt hese claims that the U.S. healthcare system is the grteatest thing since beer (I love beer, BTW ) And yet we have one of the highest infant mortality rates in the industiralized world, our national spending on healthcare is FAR mroe than any other country in the industrialized world.... It's completely unsustainable..

Soemthign needs to be done... Cool heads nee dot discuss the real problems the real issues... Unfortuantely yet again we run into the propaganda, the vastly uninformed/misinformed public that destroys any chance of really coming up with workable solutions to the problems..... Getting beyond the for profit medical/insurance industry's lobbying is almost impossible.. They want the status quo..... Why becuase fat profits today outweigh anythign else, they don't care about 10 years form now... The power brokers will be fat and rich and long gone....

[wamjratl1]

This is Darwinism's Survival of the fittest.

Darwinism would dictate that the homeless person who got hit by a bus would probably not have much of a chance of getting medical care so probably best not to bring Darwin up in this conversation. I hope no one on any side of this discussion would espouse just letting the sick and weak just die off...

[Arkat]

anything That Gives More Power To A Government Body Should Be Avoided At All Costs.

/signed for the most part

[baddax]

Darwinism would dictate that the homeless person who got hit by a bus would probably not have much of a chance of getting medical care so probably best not to bring Darwin up in this conversation. I hope no one on any side of this discussion would espouse just letting the sick and weak just die off...

You havent been reading this thread have you???

[baddax]

I think we can all agree (or mostly all) on this.
1) the system is broke
2) someone needs to fix it.
3) this is the only proposed plan.



why has there not been a counter proposal from the right?!?!? i am open minded and willing to listen. Until they come up with a better option the mouth peices (Rush etc) need to sit down and shut up.

All im saying is give me a better option.

[smatt]

Anything that gives more power to a government body should be avoided at all costs.

And what costs wouldthose be???? What is the solution, from the privae side? is there one? Other than trying to force people who make 10-15 K a year to pay 5k a year or more for insurance? Really the private side solution is status quo...... As we have moved from an agregarian based society to an industrialized one.. The roll of the modern goverment has become far more neccesary than it was way back when.... Surely most people want as little goverment control as possible.. Finding the acceptable level is the key.... But is is also clear that private is also run by humans, just as goverment is... Neither is more or less likely to sucumb to the greed that forments most problems in society today....

[Crarites]

I think we can all agree (or mostly all) on this.
1) the system is broke
2) someone needs to fix it.
3) this is the only proposed plan.



why has there not been a counter proposal from the right?!?!? i am open minded and willing to listen. Until they come up with a better option the mouth peices (Rush etc) need to sit down and shut up.

All im saying is give me a better option.

I like the current system and I'm particularly satisfied with my care.

Republicans do have their own version of reform they just have no power to get out of committee.

[Arkat]

No. I am for a government that our founding fathers originally designed for us. Not some big, bloated monster that it has become today. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

Dude. The Founding Fathers (the Federalists - John Jay, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc.) were for a strong central government. That's why the Constitution is written the way it is. They wrote it and argued for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers

The Anti-Federalists (Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, George Mason, Richard Henry Lee, and some would say Thomas Jefferson) argued for a much weaker central government than the Federalists envisioned and U.S. Constitution made real. They did agree, however, that the new central government needed to be stronger than it was under the Articles of Confederation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Federalism
http://www.pinzler.com/ushistory/argantfedsupp.html
http://mises.org/story/2335


I used to be all for what the Founding Fathers (the Federalists anyway) had intended but now I no longer think that way. I identify much more with the Anti-Federalists.

Check them out Q. I think you might need to slightly re-align yourself with some folks other than those traditionally thought of as the Founding Fathers.

[smatt]

I think we can all agree (or mostly all) on this.
1) the system is broke
2) someone needs to fix it.
3) this is the only proposed plan.



why has there not been a counter proposal from the right?!?!? i am open minded and willing to listen. Until they come up with a better option the mouth peices (Rush etc) need to sit down and shut up.

All im saying is give me a better option.

The onyl proposals from the right onthis are

1) Status Quo

2) Force everybody to pay for private insurance with, the poorest being subsidized by *gasp the goverment. In other words, yet again have the taxpayers hand money to private industry with little oversight over the fraud and greed that will surely follow....

Not sure what exactl yhe best solution is...But I think it's fair to look at other countires systems, the good, the bad, and the ugly.... And meld some aspects with our current system....

[smatt]

Dude. The Founding Fathers (the Federalists, John Jay, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc.) were for a strong central government. That's why the Constitution is written the way it is. They wrote it and argued for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers

The Anti-Federalists (Patrick Henry, Samuel Adams, George Mason, Richard Henry Lee, and some would say Thomas Jefferson) argued for a much weaker central government than the Federalists envisioned and U.S. Constitution made real. They did agree, however, that the new central government needed to be stronger than it was under the Articles of Confederation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Federalism
http://www.pinzler.com/ushistory/argantfedsupp.html
http://mises.org/story/2335


I used to be all for what the Founding Fathers (the Federalists anyway) had intended but now I no longer think that way. I identify much more with the Anti-Federalists.

Check them out Q. I think you might need to slightly re-align yourself with some folks other than those traditionally thought of as the Founding Fathers.

And even the anti-federalist Jefferson said....

"We should at times throw off "The dead hand of the past" Our medical are system as it stands is a dead hand....

And then there's Washington's comment.... "We are either a united people, or we are not. If the former, let us act in all matters of general concern act as a nation. If we are not, let us no longer act a farce by pretending it"

[Crarites]

And even the anti-federalist Jefferson said....

"We should at times throw off "The dead hand of the past" Our medical are system as it stands is a dead hand....

And then there's Washington's comment.... "We are either a united people, or we are not. If the former, let us act in all matters of general concern act as a nation. If we are not, let us no longer act a farce by pretending it"

Well for a dead hand I'm rather impressed with its ability to advance medical science on all fronts.

[Arkat]

And even the anti-federalist Jefferson said....

"We should at times throw off "The dead hand of the past" Our medical are system as it stands is a dead hand....

And then there's Washington's comment.... "We are either a united people, or we are not. If the former, let us act in all matters of general concern act as a nation. If we are not, let us no longer act a farce by pretending it"

I'm not so sure Jefferson or Washington, if they were alive today, would approve of the size and reach of today's Federal Government. Bloating it even further with the current Universal Health Care proposal might make it look even worse to them.

[smatt]

I'm not so sure Jefferson or Washington, if they were alive today, would approve of the size and reach of today's Federal Government. Bloating it even further with the current Unversal Health Care proposal might make it look even worse to them.

I'm not sure that either of them could imagine what the world today is.... It is clear that hey did infact have forward looking minds... But.......

And what proposal are you talking there's dozens if not more proposals and bills... None of them anything near complete.... This is in such infancy, it's impossible to really decipher at the moment... But I'll tell you the stupidty of the people that listen to the propagandists....

Intellegent, thoughtful questions need to put on the table, real opinions about real issues.... There is nothing to be heard that is fact form the likies of Limbutt etc.... Tehre is clearly a problem, and there's likely no perfect solution, so we must try to find teh "Best" workable solution that all the sides can agree upon.. Nobody will get exatly what they want or think is best....

But the stupidity of screaming propaganda BS isn't getting anywhere......

[binnsr]

I agree and it really pi!@@ me off when i get a ticket for no seat belt or not wearing a helmet while riding my bike.

i wear a helmet to keep my melon in one piece, not because i'm afraid i'll get a ticket..

[binnsr]

Sidebar: I'm still laughing that anyone would put Public Schools up as an example in favor of government control of health care. Even the politicians who support public schools won't send their kids to one. You can be sure the same stadard will apply to the health care model - if you're connected, you get the best treatment available. If not, you get sent home with Advil and die.

congressional exemptions are already in the current 'health care reform' package..

[Tarrant]

Sorry guys, no political discussions on the forums, no matter how well mannered they are.