Gov't programs........ ?

[Zippo]

With the increased interest with socialized medicine (referring to us in the U.S. in particular) and the constant discussion and debate of validity of it in the media, my work partner and I got into a rather long discussion in regards to this as well as the current Gov't Assistance programs (welfare, financial aid, etc). In regards to this my work partner and I while typically remaining civil are often on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to topics like this. With that being said questions like...

"Should my tax money go to support the medical of people who refuse to work?"

were brought up in the discussion.

So it got me to thinking about the forum crews and their thoughts on this topic? Certainly any and all opinions are welcome just try to keep it civil and for those not in the U.S. feel free to add your 2 copper pieces (especially if you live somewhere that similar socialized medicine is available).

[captain1z]

I think its a sad thing when a person without insurance decides to go without medical attention because he doesnt think he can afford it and gets worse for not having gone.
Many families like this exist, families with no health care coverage, who basicly make enough to keep the lights on and eat. I think of the homeless, I manage to feed a few on my way home a couple of times a week but a doctor Im certainly not.

I know one such person who has some sort of foot infection, his name is William and hes a good guy despite the fact that hes homeless. He has diabetes as well so he cant drink, smoke or take illegal drugs. When he gets really sick there is a married couple that owns a pharmacy that will give him what he needs at no cost to him but he has been so sick at times that hes had several toes amputated as a result of infection.

Ive never liked welfare, Id rather we had "workfare". I have a friend who the city sets him up with jobs, he recieves little pay but his rent is set by the city at $100 and het gets health insurance. they also offer job training and continuing education for free. This I like because it requires you to keep a job, money for nothing just encourages people to do nothing. If you are disabled thats a different story and to a point I think disabled people should work to. I have a rule about disabled people, I dont help them unless they ask me for help. Reason, I know a few who take pride in being able to do things on their own and are embarassed when people go out of their way to help them, so I wait till asked or just make it known that Im here if they need me.

Can I spare an extra few dollars in taxes to give those without health coverage the ability to get help when they need it? Yes, but I also want everyone to work. No free rides, If you can work, you should work and the goverment should make it easier to find work if you are having trouble.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this. Work if you can and get help when you need.

[Zippo]

OK these are the kind of responses I'm looking for. Constructive but doesn't have to sway to one side or the other. Free choices free speech. This really does come out of sheer curiosity on my part about the DDO community. The beautiful part about asking here is there are many different demographics in the community here and so many possibilities. Keep em coming.

[Uska]

I work in the health care field and let me tell I am totaly against the whole thing of social med. I dont mind my money helping people unable physicaly of working and I feel that almost anyone can do some kind of work including quadraparalgics or who arent making enough money for some reason, but people who just dont want to work NO WAY, let them die dang parasites Socialized medicne just doesnt seem like a good idea in many places people have to wait long times for basic things, We had a Dr. come from Canada thinking of moving to our rural hosptial and he asked me about how long it take to get some socalled special lab tests and I said depending on work load anyway from half an hour to two hours and he told me it could take up to two weeks where he was from to get these tests, I hate to think how long some other tests might take.

[baddax]

A few questions....

IS health care a Right or a Responsibility? Ie As an american Citizen do i have the Right to Health Care Or Is it my personal Responsibility Or Is It my employers Responsibility?

What percentage of the uninsured are "Working poor"? ie there employer does not offer health insurance.

What percentage of Uninsured Choose to be because they Cannnot afford the work related premiums? ie Where i work we pay 45$ a week for a Family and 25 for single. From what i understand this is reasonable compared to other companies. This is a small portion of my weekly income but if i was making minumum wage i could se how even this could be a severe burden.

Who pays for indigent care when they go to the hospital?

[Furbitor]

real healthcare reform will not exist untill they take the gambling out of the equation.

As long as there are people gambling that you wont get sick and those that chose who does and does not receive help, America will never get the healthcare it already pays for.

Then first step is the elimination of insurance. Let the insurance companies die...they killed enough people already.

Second step is everyone is eligible. Yes everyone. You have the right to get care like everyone else.

Third step is the Responsible regulation of healthcare facilities. No more $7 dollar band-aids.

Fourth step is binding arbitration with Doctors, Nurses organizations.

Fifth step is the drug plan.... Fair prices... availability, and development plans

Sixth step. Billing. These steps arent free. We pay for them. Have paid for them. Over-paid them.

By having 1 system.... it would take medicare and medicaid and make them obsolete.

we would need to pay with taxes. But that is all. No more are workers required to pay more out of their weekly checks a portion more than a year before.... one tax and DONE.

it should be cheaper than what we got and far less deaths due to insurance and managed healthcare denials.

IF people really wanted to whine about paying for others... fine.. then treat the people... then bill their country for the care. America should cover our bills as we pay the taxes for it... and foreigners can get care paid by their gov't.


This isnt a bad thing tis a nesscessary thing.. no more communist than your social police force, social school, social mail system. It works and works well. The only people it doesnt help is those who benefit on the deaths and paycheck of the american worker..(the healthcare industry and insurance industry)

[baddax]

IMO the system we have is completely Broken.

In the last few years at my employer (We have a union) we have consistently heard our employer cry about health care costs. We have recieved our yearly wage increases However they have increased our weekly cost of insurance AND increased our premimums for doctors visit, prescriptions and Co pays. In effecft we are paying more for less. My point is any wage increases we recieved were More than offset by the increased cost WE now pay in health care. In effect I makae less money now (even after yearly raises/incentives)than 4 years ago Because of increased health care costs.

[Quanefel]

Anything that gives more power to a government body should be avoided at all costs.

[baddax]

real healthcare reform will not exist untill they take the gambling out of the equation.

As long as there are people gambling that you wont get sick and those that chose who does and does not receive help, America will never get the healthcare it already pays for.

Then first step is the elimination of insurance. Let the insurance companies die...they killed enough people already.

Second step is everyone is eligible. Yes everyone. You have the right to get care like everyone else.

Third step is the Responsible regulation of healthcare facilities. No more $7 dollar band-aids.

Fourth step is binding arbitration with Doctors, Nurses organizations.

Fifth step is the drug plan.... Fair prices... availability, and development plans

Sixth step. Billing. These steps arent free. We pay for them. Have paid for them. Over-paid them.

By having 1 system.... it would take medicare and medicaid and make them obsolete.

we would need to pay with taxes. But that is all. No more are workers required to pay more out of their weekly checks a portion more than a year before.... one tax and DONE.

it should be cheaper than what we got and far less deaths due to insurance and managed healthcare denials.

IF people really wanted to whine about paying for others... fine.. then treat the people... then bill their country for the care. America should cover our bills as we pay the taxes for it... and foreigners can get care paid by their gov't.


This isnt a bad thing tis a nesscessary thing.. no more communist than your social police force, social school, social mail system. It works and works well. The only people it doesnt help is those who benefit on the deaths and paycheck of the american worker..(the healthcare industry and insurance industry)

Very good Post!!

[baddax]

Anything that gives more power to a government body should be avoided at all costs.

Yes I absolutely agree no more money for schools Or for Police protection!!

[Arnya]

Where I come from nobody but the very wealthy have health insurance.

The government pays all welfare, schools, hospitals, roads, accident cover etc for everyone.

If you don't feel like working, you can just get the unemployment benefit. If you can find something to get the sickness benefit for, you are pretty much set for life without having to ever work another day.

When you don't work, everything gets paid for by the state - your food, accommodation, booze, cigarettes, hire purchases for car, x-box etc - everything.

When you do work, you have to pay for all of this stuff out of your own pocket. You have to pay for medical and dental unless you have an accident at work.

You also pay, at the bare minimum, 20% of all your income to the government. You get schools and roads paid for, but you are also paying for every lazy SOB that won't work.

When I was earning $72k a year, I was paying 42% income tax and 18% child support. 60% of my wages going to the government. I was struggling to pay weekly bills on a good income. I left the country as soon as I could.

Living in Australia this is what happens - I get refunds on medical expenses and any purchases related to my work. We receive family assistance payments because I work - to encourage me to continue to work.

I think all services should be user-pays. If you work, you get a refund on some or all healthcare, education expenses etc. If you don't want to work, you starve.

[Chazzie]

Im not going to say much but this is just what I saw coming,Im by far NOT a Bush or Mcain fan trust me but God Help Us All NOW,We own the car companies,Banks,x4 debt then the record year last year and now this Health Care,and Clean air restrictions next which will send what jobs are left over from the free trade act to other countries..My Stars are not yellow or red there white....I want People Impeached Jailed and Fired NOW!!! NOT tomorrow !!!! O-and your supose to tell on me for saying such things..

LOL I better stop there

[baddax]

Where I come from nobody but the very wealthy have health insurance.

The government pays all welfare, schools, hospitals, roads, accident cover etc for everyone.

If you don't feel like working, you can just get the unemployment benefit. If you can find something to get the sickness benefit for, you are pretty much set for life without having to ever work another day.

When you don't work, everything gets paid for by the state - your food, accommodation, booze, cigarettes, hire purchases for car, x-box etc - everything.

When you do work, you have to pay for all of this stuff out of your own pocket. You have to pay for medical and dental unless you have an accident at work.

You also pay, at the bare minimum, 20% of all your income to the government. You get schools and roads paid for, but you are also paying for every lazy SOB that won't work.

When I was earning $72k a year, I was paying 42% income tax and 18% child support. 60% of my wages going to the government. I was struggling to pay weekly bills on a good income. I left the country as soon as I could.

Living in Australia this is what happens - I get refunds on medical expenses and any purchases related to my work. We receive family assistance payments because I work - to encourage me to continue to work.

I think all services should be user-pays. If you work, you get a refund on some or all healthcare, education expenses etc. If you don't want to work, you starve.

Wouldnt the 18% be going to your child? Or is this a standard deduction?

[baddax]

IMO what we are seeing is a culmination of the last 30 years of government and economic practices. The system is Broke and needs to be fixed. Do i agree with the way they are fixing it ? Im not sure too much too soon to tell. However the fact remains the system is broke and somethin needs to be done.

[Arnya]

Wouldnt the 18% be going to your child? Or is this a standard deduction?

It's a standard deduction. I was paying $240 a week - my ex received $29 a week from the government. The remainder went into the government 'slush-fund' that pays all benefits ie: unemployment, sickness etc.

Work that out over 18 years - I pay the government $224,640 and my son sees only $27,144 - if my ex doesn't spend the money on a night out on the booze (the reason we split in the first place....)

The worst thing is that my son was assessed at 18% of my income when living with his mum, but my 2 children I have living with me were assessed at 3% of my income each. This is ridiculous.

Whatever stupid things you do America, don't become socio-communist like New Zealand!!!

[Quanefel]

Where I come from nobody but the very wealthy have health insurance.

The government pays all welfare, schools, hospitals, roads, accident cover etc for everyone.

If you don't feel like working, you can just get the unemployment benefit. If you can find something to get the sickness benefit for, you are pretty much set for life without having to ever work another day.

When you don't work, everything gets paid for by the state - your food, accommodation, booze, cigarettes, hire purchases for car, x-box etc - everything.

When you do work, you have to pay for all of this stuff out of your own pocket. You have to pay for medical and dental unless you have an accident at work.

You also pay, at the bare minimum, 20% of all your income to the government. You get schools and roads paid for, but you are also paying for every lazy SOB that won't work.

When I was earning $72k a year, I was paying 42% income tax and 18% child support. 60% of my wages going to the government. I was struggling to pay weekly bills on a good income. I left the country as soon as I could.

Living in Australia this is what happens - I get refunds on medical expenses and any purchases related to my work. We receive family assistance payments because I work - to encourage me to continue to work.

I think all services should be user-pays. If you work, you get a refund on some or all healthcare, education expenses etc. If you don't want to work, you starve.

Remember, governments do not pay for those things. They manage and direct the money that the citizen's taxes pay for. And they never manage anything that well....governments that is.

[Xaearth]

Before I put in my two cents, a lil bit about me:

I'm a high school graduate in my early 20s. Up until my senior year of high school I was at the top of my class. Then Hurricane Katrina happened. I ended up going from valedictorian to nameless nobody in the crowd at a northern public school in the span of a week. I'd lived in one place, one home my entire life. Between being uprooted unexpectedly, never getting a chance to say goodbye to my friends, and effectively having all my previous educational accomplishments stripped from me, I pretty much lost it. I've always been a bit obsessive compulsive, but now I've been diagnosed with mild depression, anxiety order, and agoraphobia. Without medication I literally cannot deal with any situation I cannot directly control.

Of course, because of all of this I had to withdraw from my first year of college. As soon as I did, my dad's insurance company drops me. I had some savings (my grandparents had set aside money for me from the day I was born), so I tried to pay for my own medical coverage. I had the money... And no one would take it. I had too many "pre-existing conditions" because of several surgeries I had when I was younger to correct a birth defect. So I ended up ****ing away my savings on COBRA, $400 a month for a year.

I'm now broke, without a job, without any work experience, without healthcare. I can't get a job without medication. I can't afford medication without a job. So what happens now? My parents, who applied for social security this year, are paying for my medications hoping and praying that I get accepted for medical assistance for the disabled so the costs are retroactively covered. In the meantime I'm working with a state government program that assists disabled persons in finding employment, but I haven't seen a psychologist or counselor since last year so I'm not making much real progress.

As far as most government programs go, I don't qualify. I'm in my early 20s, so I'm not old enough (senior citizen) and not young enough (minor). I don't have any kids or dependants. I live with my parents so anything wage based takes into account their income. I've never worked before (I'm a perfectionist, so I spent most of my time on school things; a lot of work goes into straight A's, even moreso if you're OC) so I don't qualify for social security. I may qualify for some of the programs for the disabled, but the process has been going on since November of last year. Between being bounced from doctor to doctor for tests and diagnosese, sending medical records to every buereaucrat in the US, and having to refile when they realize that I actually might just be disabled cuz they didn't believe me and did all of the original paperwork as that of a healthy young adult male...

All of that said, do I think the government should be handing out healthcare to everyone? NO.
But they do need to re-evaluate their current programs and procedures... Too many people get what they don't need and too many that really need help don't get anything.

[Arnya]

Remember, governments do not pay for those things. They manage and direct the money that the citizen's taxes pay for. And they never manage anything that well....governments that is.

Also, try to have some sympathy - those overseas flights and bloated government employee expense accounts don't pay themselves...

[baddax]

Remember, governments do not pay for those things. They manage and direct the money that the citizen's taxes pay for. And they never manage anything that well....governments that is.

So you are against any form of govenrment in general?

[Ereshkigal]

We have the ability to provide guaranteed healthcare to even the least of us. It won't be free, of course. And those that currently can't afford proper healthcare won't be contributing much to pay the bill.

That being said, I welcome a tax increase if it means everyone gets health care.

There are lots of issues being brought up as arguments against national health care. Look hard at those issues. I say they are separate from healthcare reform and should be dealt with separately.

The horror stories you may hear that scare you about nationalized healthcare were well-engineered to do just that. And they are just stories. We live in a digital age. Talk to a real person from a country that has a nationlized health care program. ( it's hard to find a wealth country that doesn't have a national program ). I could tell you what I think you'll hear when you ask, but that wouldn't matter. The trick is for you to actually ask.

Health for profit is ok but it should be regulated. Greed is far too rampant these days and healing people should not be entirely commercialized. If it is, we're all screwed in the end.