Clerics low on mana...

[Velexia]

Vile you and I are never gonna see eye to eye on this just like you think a cleric who battles is wrong I think your ideal that a cleric should only heal and focus on such or they are not divine a mockery of the class. IN pen and paper many clerics I had the pleasure of running with or playing also battled. Its no fun to worry only about health of others when in the game this game was based on we even got domain spells to allow us to fight better in the name of our god. So you can have your contempt but I guarentee you there are plenty of battle clerics that can and do heal their party and keep potential wipes down.

I'll be amazed the day I see a "Battle Cleric" that isn't simply a burden. If you are a Battle Cleric, and you join a group looking for a Cleric, you need to tell them that you aren't a healer. I'll take any class into my party before a Battle Cleric (Like say, a Paladin... like a Battle Cleric, but effective!). My experiences with Battle Clerics has always been sour, and when I am running my Cleric, the Battle Clerics I have been in party with have been a source of amusement at best.

[Vileborg]

Whilst not a fan of battle clerics do not make the assumption that all I do is stand back and heal. I carry a full complement of crowd control and damage spells as well as a full arsenal of weapons for just about every occasion.

It is also important to remember that you pay to play the game. If you enjoy playing a battle cleric, the importance of anyones opinion on the forums is of no consequence to your enjoyment and you should fully enjoy the game as that is purpose of a game.

[Enochroot]

Any stereotype is pretty dumb, I mean, here's my bio:

Xereum (zer-ee-um)


Alt's:

Zereox


The reason most battleclerics are expensive (and conversely, I am rich):

Battleclerics are often both an ineffective cleric, AND an ineffective melee. This results in the loss of DPS/CC/effectiveness of one member, while at the same time fooling the party into thinking they *might* in fact be getting a competent healer. (which is required in this game, like it or not)

This effectively RUINS a group (unless that group was way too uber to begin with) - and thereby results on extra cash flow required, by said battlecleric, to get the group through, should they wish to succeed.

I will outkill any mace-swinging idiot out there, unless of course he too uses CLERIC spells, and then i say, why have wasted the points in strength to begin with?

As a final note, if you don't want to heal, and want an effective melee, BE a melee class. They're AWESOME, and many of them can even do healing! (As effectively as your gimpy BattleCleric).

Thus spoke X

And yet ... I have a "melee-cleric" ... who is more effective in certain, specific situations, and generally is a better "team player" than my full nuker cleric (mostly because a nuker cleric doesn't really , well, NEED a party.)


Play what you like, with whom you like, when you like.

[Visty]

If the non-cleric doesn't have pots, wands and scrolls to cover this sort of thing, they are ill prepared, and need to fix that for the next time.

fixed for you

[Zenako]

And yet ... I have a "melee-cleric" ... who is more effective in certain, specific situations, and generally is a better "team player" than my full nuker cleric (mostly because a nuker cleric doesn't really , well, NEED a party.)

truth to that...there are many quests I could solo with any of my clerics easier and with less stress than I could do them with average or worse groups. A superior group, likely everyone spends more time chatting about sports, cars, the weather, or whatever than worrying about "winning" the quest...it just happens.

I also think that many people see a "Bad cleric" who does not have the gear or know how to melee effectively and lump them into the Battle Cleric wannabes. From the outside it could be hard to tell. I find that many pure class clerics who also fight and mix it up, tend to be quite useful at it, that most of the ones with "issues" have splashes that they made without understanding what they were doing.

I also see way too many players wholely dependant on a healing IV to support their playstyle and when that IV is not hooked up they fail and they lash out at the healing system that seemed to have failed them. Interesting how that same cleric could take lower level groups thru that same quest with no issue, but that same character kept dying. (I'm looking at you Mr Stereotypically weapon swinging, kleenex wearing, no AC, bag of Hit Points, whose Idea of tactics is to jump into the middle of 10 mobs so you get glancing damage on all those mobs. (Now that tactic works nicely if you have the build for it Mr High AC tank.) but Mr Meatbag with boots, it don't.)

Whatever....

[Kalari]

I'll need a definition please. If you die a bunch I don't equivocate that to you sucking... you dying just means I get to drink more and I get better loot. So you only suck if you play well and don't die? And if you aren't dying, that is definitely my fault.

lol you see this is why my clerics have complexes lmao they are not safe around you

Either way people are entitled to feeling whatever they wish about battle clerics I personally know i've run with good ones, ones id take over some of the self proclaimed great pure clerics.

But that's just my 2cps I don't go disparaging builds or saying that they are shorting themselves I allow people to have fun their fun with the game and most of the time I find people who are out to have fun are waay better then those who think they know how to play a class best.

/shrug

[Lyniaer]

Augh. Battle Clerics.

I see some Clerics out there with levels of Fighter...Levels of Monk...Levels of Ranger...Levels of Rogue...

Really, those are the dumb things to do. They're a self-sustaining soloist build and shouldn't be in a party at all.
The reason I have 2 levels of Paladin (and when Mod 9 comes out, a 3rd) is for the sake of staying ALIVE.
Too many times I see Clerics get attacked and Nomed so easily it's not even funny.
3 Levels of Paladin will get you:
Boost to AC and Saves for you and party members nearby.
Boost to Saves via your Charisma Modifier.
Proficiency with Long Swords, which means you can get your hands on better, cheaper, more easily available and useful weaponry to protect yourself.
Immunity to Fear and Disease.
Lay On Hands which will give you a minor, very quick to cast, heal on any party member and is not prejudiced against Warforged.
Smite. Which is practically useless but at least it's there if you're dinking around doing favor missions 1/10th your level.
Toughness Enhancements so long as you have the Toughness Feat. Honestly, if you're a human cleric, you have plenty of feets to go around. I highly suggest DieHard, Toughness, Spell Points and Maximize.

The only thing my Cleric doesn't have is Mass Heal. Which I get at Level 14 which I will have once Mod 9 comes out. Take my Cleric to Lv15, add another level of Paladin for Disease/Fear immunity and voila.
A dead Cleric heals far less than a slightly gimped one who's still alive....

[Visty]

Augh. Battle Clerics.

I see some Clerics out there with levels of Fighter...Levels of Monk...Levels of Ranger...Levels of Rogue...

Really, those are the dumb things to do. They're a self-sustaining soloist build and shouldn't be in a party at all.
The reason I have 2 levels of Paladin (and when Mod 9 comes out, a 3rd) is for the sake of staying ALIVE.
Too many times I see Clerics get attacked and Nomed so easily it's not even funny.
3 Levels of Paladin will get you:
Boost to AC and Saves for you and party members nearby.which is zero if another pala is there
Boost to Saves via your Charisma Modifier.that i give you
Proficiency with Long Swords, which means you can get your hands on better, cheaper, more easily available and useful weaponry to protect yourself. clerics can get that on their own
Immunity to Fear and Disease.not needed
Lay On Hands which will give you a minor, very quick to cast, heal on any party member and is not prejudiced against Warforged.that you get too
Smite. Which is practically useless but at least it's there if you're dinking around doing favor missions 1/10th your level.useless, as you said
Toughness Enhancements so long as you have the Toughness Feat. Honestly, if you're a human cleric, you have plenty of feets to go around. I highly suggest DieHard, Toughness, Spell Points and Maximize.fighter and barb splashs get those too. oh, and diehard is a waste of a feat in later lvls

The only thing my Cleric doesn't have is Mass Heal. Which I get at Level 14 which I will have once Mod 9 comes out. Take my Cleric to Lv15, add another level of Paladin for Disease/Fear immunity and voila.
A dead Cleric heals far less than a slightly gimped one who's still alive....

you also forgot some disadvanteges of the pala lvls (besides the spellslot and spellpen loss
1 less feat from fighter which leads to more spellcasting feats or more dps cause you can take kopesh
less running speed from the barb lvl
no bowstr, -2dmg, no sprintboost from ranger lvl
wismod to ac from monk lvl + an extra feat + evasion if taken 2monk

so saying pala is the only way to go for a BC is plain ignorant

[Delt]

Augh. Battle Clerics.

I see some Clerics out there with levels of Fighter...Levels of Monk...Levels of Ranger...Levels of Rogue...

Really, those are the dumb things to do. They're a self-sustaining soloist build and shouldn't be in a party at all.
The reason I have 2 levels of Paladin (and when Mod 9 comes out, a 3rd) is for the sake of staying ALIVE.
Too many times I see Clerics get attacked and Nomed so easily it's not even funny.
3 Levels of Paladin will get you:
Boost to AC and Saves for you and party members nearby.
Boost to Saves via your Charisma Modifier.
Proficiency with Long Swords, which means you can get your hands on better, cheaper, more easily available and useful weaponry to protect yourself.
Immunity to Fear and Disease.
Lay On Hands which will give you a minor, very quick to cast, heal on any party member and is not prejudiced against Warforged.
Smite. Which is practically useless but at least it's there if you're dinking around doing favor missions 1/10th your level.
Toughness Enhancements so long as you have the Toughness Feat. Honestly, if you're a human cleric, you have plenty of feets to go around. I highly suggest DieHard, Toughness, Spell Points and Maximize.

The only thing my Cleric doesn't have is Mass Heal. Which I get at Level 14 which I will have once Mod 9 comes out. Take my Cleric to Lv15, add another level of Paladin for Disease/Fear immunity and voila.
A dead Cleric heals far less than a slightly gimped one who's still alive....

You give some pretty silly advice and some of what you say is downright wrong. I laughed a little though, so thanks.

[Kalari]

Whew I love it when I read a person knocking cleric splashes but has one. So you knock those who have planned their build around fighters or monk yet you have a pally splash cause it will keep you alive?

My monk splash cleric has evasion a wisdom boost and has the ability to fight better then my straight healer does though she isnt the type not to swing a weapon when needed either.


This whole battle clerics cant be good is silly sure there are sucky ones just like there are sucky heal bots. Its about the people running them and im really shocked to see people constantly mocking clerics who splash without having real hands on knowledge of what they are talking about. Im not a multiclasser by any means out of most of my cap girls 3 are multiclassed and only because the two classes go hand in hand like my ranger/rogues and now my monk cleric. It may not work for what you can personally do in the game but ive seen fantastic cleric builds who splash other things.

So try not to knock things unless you have clear concrete stuff backing your claims.

[beelzebaba]

It is silly to lump all the battle clerics into one pile. A better way to separate it is to say a good player versus a bad player.

A good player is good and makes his effectiveness felt regardless of his build. If they are a heal bot, or a battle cleric they will do a good job.
A bad player whether a heal bot or battle cleric will suck under all circumstances.

Telling someone how their character should be played is very weak. I know battle clerics who are far better than most heal bots. Tell them to be a heal bot and this is what most of them will tell you about your so called great tanks.... get some AC.

It is all about party make up and self sufficiency. If im on a mana sponge that puts out sick dps id like a healbot and a bunch of other hard hitting studs around me to tear it up. If im on an AC character i dont even care if there is a healer. Build your chars and parties anyway ya like it, but to expect others to think that way is just plain silly.

I guess there are many clerics who try to baby everyone in their group... to me thats silly.
I guess that is fun for some ppl.

My cleric s not a battle cleric, but if i dont see you self healing at all, your going to die, and dont ask me for anything that comes in a pot if your not raged. Being on a cleric doesnt mean Being a healbot who jumps whenever some cheapo asks for something. Most dont even hit as hard as they think do on their tanks. Conversely when im on a tank i ask for very little if anything at all.

Its all a perspective thing, not a dig on anyone

[beelzebaba]

Here are a few links of so called battle clerics showing their versatilty and power in a group. Im sure there plenty more examples i can show but most so called healbots couldnt do something like this. A lot of time even fail with 12 man groups. Maybe the real problem is the melee in those groups, sounds like a lot of them may be the ones crying about the battle clerics in this thread. Maybe those melees just suck and should be the ones being scrutinized, not battle clerics as a whole.

Some of these people may not even call themselves battle clerics. I just thought they were pretty good examples of clerics who can do a whole lot more than just heal.



http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=193660

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189828 pretty sure this is a battle cleric. Don't know him personally, but he is on our server. Either way he is surely a bad mofo

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=191285

[Samadhi]

I'll be amazed the day I see a "Battle Cleric" that isn't simply a burden. If you are a Battle Cleric, and you join a group looking for a Cleric, you need to tell them that you aren't a healer. I'll take any class into my party before a Battle Cleric (Like say, a Paladin... like a Battle Cleric, but effective!). My experiences with Battle Clerics has always been sour, and when I am running my Cleric, the Battle Clerics I have been in party with have been a source of amusement at best.

Please learn to distinguish between a bad player and a bad build. What you grouped with may or may not be bad builds - but are almost certainly bad players.

Aren't you on Ghallanda? I know a pile of good ones there.

[Renvar]

I've run a capped cleric for a long time and several alt clerics. I've got an issue as well with Rangers, Pallys, UMD builds, and WF Wiz's who seem to be allergic to wands and scrolls. (Not saying all are this way, but...)

I was running a deleras the other day and there was a WF Wiz who could not seem to manage aggro, was constantly getting smacked to 25% HP or less and not casting repairs or wand whipping or potion guzzling. The toon died like 5 times in part one and the first part of part two before I realized, he's really not going to repair himself. Ever. I don't think he even has the spells memorized or has any wands on him. I don't think he even took the enhancements to help increase healing effectiveness.

There were two rangers and a UMD capable pure rogue in the group too and none of them seemed to have a wand or scroll between them. All had very weak AC, too. I was running out of mana, even in the shrine rich 3rd part. Part 4 was a nightmare. And the WF Wiz was trying to do all the optionals on part 4...

Why is it perceived that the Cleric, if one is present, HAS to wand whip heals when out of mana? When 4 of the other 5 party members were fully capable (only the human sorc limited to pots alone) of wand whipping? Once cleric mana is gone, it's everyone's responsibility to self heal as they are capable.

But I rarely if ever see this happen. And I think I might go into shock if someone actually scrolled or wanded anaother party member with a heal or restore. Why do clerics have the expectation of using scrolls and wands on every other party member as an obligation but no other classes (even when capable) have such an obligation to party members? Unless I'm dead, they don't even try. Then suddenly, the rogue has a ring of the ancestors and the ranger mysteriously found 4 CSW wands in his pack.

Am I just in some really awful pugs, or is this as common as it seems? Am I mistaken about my expecations/perceptions of the rangers/pallys/UMD's/WF casters? I'm tired of blowing through 3-4 wands on a quest while other party members are sitting on their hands with wands in their pack.

I'm not even getting into the need for ALL classes to carry a standard pot list and have them on their shortcut bars. How anyone steps into a quest without a sufficient supply of cure pots is beyond me. (Oops...I guess I just did get into it...)

[Healsavant]

as a cleric myself i make it a point to carry scrolls, ya just gotta get the mix right, carry wands, scrolls, elixer...as a last resort of course.... I dont know what quest u were running but no reason he couldnt remove anything anyone in party had IF he was prepared. Think about it if a tank could only use his weapon for part of the fight and is saving the rest for the "main fight" he would be kinda useless right? next time i would leave that cleric at the curb.

[Healsavant]

I've run a capped cleric for a long time and several alt clerics. I've got an issue as well with Rangers, Pallys, UMD builds, and WF Wiz's who seem to be allergic to wands and scrolls. (Not saying all are this way, but...)

I was running a deleras the other day and there was a WF Wiz who could not seem to manage aggro, was constantly getting smacked to 25% HP or less and not casting repairs or wand whipping or potion guzzling. The toon died like 5 times in part one and the first part of part two before I realized, he's really not going to repair himself. Ever. I don't think he even has the spells memorized or has any wands on him. I don't think he even took the enhancements to help increase healing effectiveness.

There were two rangers and a UMD capable pure rogue in the group too and none of them seemed to have a wand or scroll between them. All had very weak AC, too. I was running out of mana, even in the shrine rich 3rd part. Part 4 was a nightmare. And the WF Wiz was trying to do all the optionals on part 4...

Why is it perceived that the Cleric, if one is present, HAS to wand whip heals when out of mana? When 4 of the other 5 party members were fully capable (only the human sorc limited to pots alone) of wand whipping? Once cleric mana is gone, it's everyone's responsibility to self heal as they are capable.

But I rarely if ever see this happen. And I think I might go into shock if someone actually scrolled or wanded anaother party member with a heal or restore. Why do clerics have the expectation of using scrolls and wands on every other party member as an obligation but no other classes (even when capable) have such an obligation to party members? Unless I'm dead, they don't even try. Then suddenly, the rogue has a ring of the ancestors and the ranger mysteriously found 4 CSW wands in his pack.

Am I just in some really awful pugs, or is this as common as it seems? Am I mistaken about my expecations/perceptions of the rangers/pallys/UMD's/WF casters? I'm tired of blowing through 3-4 wands on a quest while other party members are sitting on their hands with wands in their pack.

I'm not even getting into the need for ALL classes to carry a standard pot list and have them on their shortcut bars. How anyone steps into a quest without a sufficient supply of cure pots is beyond me. (Oops...I guess I just did get into it...)

excellent point... I carry heals scrolls on my ranger and wands as well and have many times helped backup where needed but dont really see many doing this, maybe they just have UMD for teleporting personally i carry them for myself in case there isnt a cleric but I find that i have to whip them out quite often.

[Enochroot]

excellent point... I carry heals scrolls on my ranger and wands as well and have many times helped backup where needed but dont really see many doing this, maybe they just have UMD for teleporting personally i carry them for myself in case there isnt a cleric but I find that i have to whip them out quite often.

Generally because from a time/efficiency standpoint it doesn't make any sense. If I'm clericing and can have some GTWF ranger beating the hell out of something, I'd rather be scroll healing the ranger rather than the ranger backing off (potentially switching gear) and scrolling it himself.


At certain points it might make sense, but whenever I see someone jump out of combat to "heal" themselves when the cleric could easily have just quicken healed them (which a cleric can easily do, even whilst BB-ing, destructing, etc) - it makes me cringe.


Perhaps topping themselves with a heal scroll post-fight, fine, but not during battle. Keep up the dps/wop/whatever.

[Visty]

as a cleric myself i make it a point to carry scrolls, ya just gotta get the mix right, carry wands, scrolls, elixer...as a last resort of course.... I dont know what quest u were running but no reason he couldnt remove anything anyone in party had IF he was prepared. Think about it if a tank could only use his weapon for part of the fight and is saving the rest for the "main fight" he would be kinda useless right? next time i would leave that cleric at the curb.

and what makes you think that the cleric has to pay that?
all of the remove X come in potions too and everyone can use them
there is no reason the cleric would have to remove anything

next time i would leave those ''tanks'' at the curb

[gamblerjoe]

most of what people have said here is intelligent and correct. heres my 2cp...

curded crypt is not obsure. how can a quick easy quest that many people are keyed for, dropps one of the most mandatory items in the game, and drops multiple pieces of unbound coveted loot be obsure? i had someone in a bad pug tell me they didnt have time to run it. another person in that group told me he was not willing to take his choker off for the sft. ugh. also, i have a monk splash temest pally. thats a 5 stat toon boys and girls. i still managed to make sft a permanant fixture on that toon, without sacrificing any of the nececities, but it wasnt easy.

clerics and casters are cheap, tanks are expensive. this is a fact. weapons are expensive, and any tank worth their salt carries all the pots that have been previously mentioned in this thread.

i have 2 capped clerics. my first one was a healbot, and now he never gets played. my new one is my new favorite toon, and is going to be the first toon i "complete." the new one is an OCC, and is ridiculously uber. iv cleric'd it up for many many hours and i know what im doing. i also know what to expect from the rest of my party in any given quest. that said, i cant stand to be told what to do. i have the ability to heal, that does not make me your pocket healer. i have seen people think i am the biggest noob (or jerk) in the world for feeling that way.

be self sufficient. im not going to put it in my lfms, im going to let u find out the hard way. in fact most of the time i dont have the star, and im sure as hell not going to ask the person with the star to put it in the lfm.

as far as buffs, i know most of the quests quite well, so i know what buffs to cast. i may not heal u, but i will buff u. buffs are too good to overlook. they save healing and increase dps.

i dont heal anyone who can heal themself unless they are currently swinging a weapon and i dont want them to stop. this includes bards, rogues, wf casters and sorcs. if your sorc doesnt have UMD, the sooner u reroll the better.
i dont heal sp sponges more than a couple times. i usually warn them, but sometimes i just let them die and dont rez them.
i dont fix neg levels.
i carry 100 heal, mclw, mcmw and restore scrolls. i carry just about every wand a cleric can use. i have them because there are times when they are necessary. i dont carry them to save u from having to use your consumables.
there are obvious exceptions to what iv said here, but in general thats how it is. in the cases where a players lack of self sufficiency, and my refusal to make up for it, cause them to become completely ineffective, i find the party isnt missing out on much. besides, there arent many problems my blade barriers cant solve anyway

the most noteworty exception to my playstyle is when i have to go into healbot mode. this is mostly in raids. for the record iv got solo-clericing VOD down to a science.

[Fenrisulven6]

I think I might go into shock if someone actually scrolled or wanded another party member with a heal or restore.

I actually watch for this and prioritize accordingly - if I see a non-cleric helping out with wand whips etc, he gets more of my attention when combat heals are needed.

As for the rest, might just be plain ignorance. I must admit that I didn't outfit my other toons with wands and pots until AFTER I had run my first cleric.