Clerics low on mana...

[smatt]

True but my cleric is still looking for that buff that prevents stupid playing. You know the one that shows them "yes you have buffs but that doesnt mean your invincible.."

Well there's no buff for that... You simply dont' ehal the person, let them die.. And if you feel nice.. Carry their stone.. THAT will prevent stupid game play

This game will be coem a lot more ummmmm interesting soon.... There will likely be mroe new players around that since the orginal launch.... It will take an extrodinairy amount of patience from the veteran players

[cheever77]

I can understand somewhat where the cleric was coming from... Maybe he was a newbie in which case allowances should be made, I have been there on my first cleric.... I copped a lot of ridicule for not knowing what DV's were or what spells removed certain effects. Also found my first cleric cost me a lot of plat. Now I have noticed that there aren't as many offers of donations to clerics anymore for consumables used. Saying that now that I have two capped clerics I don't find this an issue, if I need plat I farm the desert or run SOS or other. Hmmm lot of words for one point. Don't seee too many mid level clerics on. Is eveyone waiting on FVS's? Or is it due to lack of donations and thankfullness to your healer????

[Xiloscient]

As a Cleric it Seems Party's want the cleric to have 30 mana pots 8k scrolls all for your health.
I agree with the cleric keeping mana to save if it was needed.
Last i checked cleric are just like a caster heal until the blue bar is gone then your on your own until the next shrine

Now Mind you MOST clerics and i myself do this will keep a few mana pots heal scrolls rez scrolls BUT we are not suppose to be required Every class should have some BYOH

So until everyone is giving plat to the cleric to buy anything extra party's should not be expecting this

[Kalanth]

With my cleric I do make some selfish moves, and I should probly fix these. I do carry 200 heal scrolls and 200 mass cure scrolls on me, and a hot bar of wands to top people off (and wand whip on occasion). I carry many of the spells that cure ailements too (Remove Blindness, Remove Paralysis, etc) but I don't carry things that don't effect me. See, my cleric is a WF, so I don't carry anything for poison (I do carry disease removal, but that is a left over from the days of the desert). I go low end on my memorized restore (not as low as lesser, but definetly not Greater) and I don't carry scrolls of it. I use Raise Dead instead of Resurrection cause it costs less, and so on.

It is true that the cleric should be equipped just like they would expect the others in the party to be equipped. To fix my own selfishness I need to go out and buy additional scrolls and wands to allieviate people of their poison, or raise them in better condition. So while I side with the Cleric on this issue, I also side with the rest of the party in that the cleric should have been better prepared.

[Sou1Hammer]

Who cares.... Well maybe if the cleric had throw a deathward, Oh it was a beholder... Or maye the melees could've gotten a Silver Flamenecklace, or maybe 1 neg level doesn't really matter THAT much.... But since the cleric said carry pots, it's a pparent he didn't have a clue yet, so maybe a hint or 2 abotu what cures what and waht MOST clerics carry. I don't really care to be honest.... I help people out no matter what toon I'm playing often tossing heals/restoration scrolls from my UMD tank, or my Wizzy, let alone Cleric.... A little bit of plat is meaningless when even at low levels MOST players have enough to cover a coupel thousand.

Lame discussion, unless it includes tips to players on how to avoid such things.... And what they should be carrying themselves...

A well buffed, well taken care of party is a cheaper party to heal...... People also tend to play better when they're happy and not all ****y...

If you really don't care, then why even post? You're basically saying that the cleric SHOULD be responsible for the health of everyone in the party. I completely disagree. If you're in a guild and have multiple toons, there is no excuse for not carrying pots. Pots are cheap and plentifull. If you're to lazy to carry pots, then I don't want you in my parties. (I'm not referring to you persay, I'm making a generalization here.)

To EXPECT the cleric to heal/restore every time, not only shows ignorance/poor planning, but also a lack of respect for not only the cleric class, but the rest of your party members as well because you're basically saying that YOU are more important than anybody else and to hell with what the others need.

Again, I'm not making reference to any one particular person posting here, I'm making a generalization.

[Samadhi]

.... It will take an extrodinairy amount of patience from the veteran players

Or it will just be a lot more soloing with dungeon scaling and XP pots...

[Kalanth]

If you really don't care, then why even post? You're basically saying that the cleric SHOULD be responsible for the health of everyone in the party. I completely disagree. If you're in a guild and have multiple toons, there is no excuse for not carrying pots. Pots are cheap and plentifull. If you're to lazy to carry pots, then I don't want you in my parties. (I'm not referring to you persay, I'm making a generalization here.)

To EXPECT the cleric to heal/restore every time, not only shows ignorance/poor planning, but also a lack of respect for not only the cleric class, but the rest of your party members as well because you're basically saying that YOU are more important than anybody else and to hell with what the others need.

Again, I'm not making reference to any one particular person posting here, I'm making a generalization.

That is going a bit far. Not carrying a pot and expecting the cleric to heal everyone (including yourself) is not the same as saying I am better than everyone here. That is poor planning, I will give you that, but it does not make the player selfish. In that same lite the cleric should be expected to carry massive stacks of scrolls and wands for every necessary spell in DDO and use them constantly with no expectation of return be it treasure, payment, or favoritism. Using your same standard for the party then the cleric in the OP's post was selfish and saying his is more important than the party because he would not spend some SP on another restoration.

[Sou1Hammer]

That is going a bit far. Not carrying a pot and expecting the cleric to heal everyone (including yourself) is not the same as saying I am better than everyone here. That is poor planning, I will give you that, but it does not make the player selfish. In that same lite the cleric should be expected to carry massive stacks of scrolls and wands for every necessary spell in DDO and use them constantly with no expectation of return be it treasure, payment, or favoritism. Using your same standard for the party then the cleric in the OP's post was selfish and saying his is more important than the party because he would not spend some SP on another restoration.

I'm not referring to those that are unprepared, I'm referring to those that REFUSE to carry pots. Yes, I have run with ppl like that. Those are the ones I'm referring to. I appologize for any confusion there. I do agree that clerics should carry large stack of those scrolls and pots. My beef is with those that just flat out refuse to help the cleric out in any fashion what-so-ever. They EXPECT (caps are for emphasis, not shouting) to be healed for nothing. That's my gripe.

[Kalanth]

I'm not referring to those that are unprepared, I'm referring to those that REFUSE to carry pots. Yes, I have run with ppl like that. Those are the ones I'm referring to. I appologize for any confusion there. I do agree that clerics should carry large stack of those scrolls and pots. My beef is with those that just flat out refuse to help the cleric out in any fashion what-so-ever. They EXPECT (caps are for emphasis, not shouting) to be healed for nothing. That's my gripe.

The expectation that the cleric will heal and is expected to heal is one that was born from people playing healbot clerics that do nothing but heal. To change this perspective one needs to build a quality cleric that can do more than just heal and convince the other players to be self sufficient. That is not a task that should be taken lightly. I think being upset that players expect the healer to heal is snobishly acceptable, and that comes from a person who's first character (and favorite character) is his cleric.

[Lyniaer]

Okay, I've read enough. Got through the first page and thought to myself, "Wow. Let's go on less than all the facts."

Fact 1: The run was Shadow Knight (Think it was Knight. The one with 24084326^53E traps.
Fact 2: I'll admit, I was level 5, Fighter. Gear = Not Shabby. Plus, I think I was the only one with a GT Weapon.
Fact 3: Cleric had 1/2 mana left after using a shrine and I only remember having Death Ward on me 1 time. Where in the Sam Hill was all his mana going?
Fact 4: We were no where near a shrine when said circumstance occurred. We were just finishing up with the first skirmish to obtain the first key and the Cleric had a sliver of mana left. No one had any buffs when we started and there was ample time to do so while we were standing around at the entrance.
Fact 5: I've run a Cleric myself. Check my Sig. 340HP, 1536SP. Leveling it up I've never experienced many issues in running out of mana. I try to be as efficient with my mana as I can be and always had appropriate materials to keep party members alive. I've come from enough MMOs where the Healer was the Healer. The party relied on the Healer to have what they need to sustain the party. If the Healer expels all of his resources and the party still wipes then something besides the Healer needs to be evaluated. (i.e. Mission Level, Character Levels, Difficulty, Party Setup, etc.)
IMHO 1: Never run a cleric or a caster as your first toon. It's not hard to roll up a winning Fighter or Barbarian without a clue what you're doing. When it comes to MMO's like DDO where you have so much input onto your build where most games you just gotta level up and buy Equipment.

In closing; maybe it was my mistake to expect a lowbie to know what they're doing. I do, sincerely mean that; that wasn't a sarcastic statement. When you run so much high level stuff then jump down 10-16 levels to do something else you get that function stuck in your head that you should feel comfortable relying on your party members and you really shouldn't take that comfort. Perhaps I should take self-sufficiency items on the instance someone doesn't know how to play.

PS: I'm not knocking lowbies in any way. I'm knocking the fact that a player is struggling to succeed, it's damaging the party and they're taking a defensive stance against players that know what that person should be doing.

[Kronik]

A good cleric will carry at all times 100+ Heal Scrolls, 50+ Mass Cure Moderate Scrolls 50+ Greater Restoration Scrolls, a few wands and a Supream Potency item.

If you want to play a cleric, especially in PUG groups you should be prepared for any type of player. Not just to heal or be anyone's Beeotch, but to be a GOOD Cleric and impress even the weak straglers that leach off a group. Sure I've wasted scrolls and mana pots before, but its part of the gig. I'd say the same for casters and melee types. Be prepared with pots and scrolls and do your part in completing a quest.

In my opinion, the OP was wrong for not be prepared and know that there are no restoration pots. If someone has negative levels, even a shrine will only cure one level, so I stress the importance of greator restoration scrolls for your Cleric.

If you play a battle cleric and do not heal or help anyone but yourself then this advise is not for you.

[Lost_Leader]

IMHO 1: Never run a cleric or a caster as your first toon. It's not hard to roll up a winning Fighter or Barbarian without a clue what you're doing. When it comes to MMO's like DDO where you have so much input onto your build where most games you just gotta level up and buy Equipment.

My first character was a cleric, but then again, I am a casual noob.

So my opinion on who's responsibility it is to be sure everyone is prepped and ready, has the proper consumables and weapons, or at the very least, knows that no one knows what is coming and therefore everyone is ready for everything?

... The party leader.

You took the responsibility/initiative to put the group together, now take it a step further and:

1. Be sure everyone knows what style you plan on playing (zerg, rose smelling, fast pace, moderate pace, harpering).

2. Be sure everyone is equipped. Simply mention ghost touch, death ward (tangleroot goggles), lesser restore potions... and then asking the cleric if he/she will need assistance on supplies. Maybe loan a weapon to a newbie fighter.

3. Get an idea of your parties capabilities, and be ready to change gears if necessary. If your cleric overburns power, or doesn't take advice on what buffs to use, adjust your strategy. Slow down. Reroll. Look to see who the mana drain is. Do what you need to do, but lead your party. If a group fails, you can point blame at the cleric, or at the sponguey barb, or the no haste sorcerer.. or you can accept that as a party leader that you didn't adjust well to the circumstances.

4. Take into consideration everyone's abilities. Everyone can use potions, bards and rangers and pallys can assist heal, if you have wf then arcanes help there, find out the sorcs spells, offer suggestions to the cleric and wiz on what to mem. If the ranger has an 8 wisdom and no wands, find out before ya start.


When I lead a party, if we fail, it is my fault. If a cleric ran out of resources or if someone needed a lesser restore and didn't get one, it is my fault. If someone wasn't properly prepared, or I didn't recognize someone as being worthless and then not adjusting... you guessed it, my own **** fault. Or the tequila's. Or some woman's.

[William_the_Bat]

Unyielding sovereignty is your friend.

Since I pug a lot, I tend to carry a few of each of the most likely needed potions on any of my characters, if not wands, and I almost invariably use 80% of them on other people who lack the foresight to do the same.

But 100 or everything?

Sure, I have a level 16, and he makes good cash running shroud or whatever, but just about any character I roll up needs a huge amount of cash for junk that only noobs don't have, i.e. specific-use weapons, (ghost touch, transmuting, etc) tapestry pieces, portable hole, a +1 tome or two to meet feat requirements or to make gearing easier, etc. etc. etc.

So if I run out of remove curse potions after using 5 of them on the barbarian then pick up the next curse myself.... please have pity!

Silver flame amulet? Yeah, my pally has one, but usually keeps his prot +5 necklace on. Chances are if I take a few negative levels, I can Unyielding Sovereignty myself and be just fine. And again, I find myself using it on other people far more often than I use it on myself. My other characters don't have em. If people would run the quests at level, they probably would. But the chances of finding level appropriate groups for the quest chains is very very small. Which is a pity, they are really cool quests when you do them at level, and super boring to do them at level 16.

[Phidius]

A good cleric will carry at all times 100+ Heal Scrolls, 50+ Mass Cure Moderate Scrolls 50+ Greater Restoration Scrolls, a few wands and a Supream Potency item.

If you want to play a cleric, especially in PUG groups you should be prepared for any type of player. Not just to heal or be anyone's Beeotch, but to be a GOOD Cleric and impress even the weak straglers that leach off a group. Sure I've wasted scrolls and mana pots before, but its part of the gig. I'd say the same for casters and melee types. Be prepared with pots and scrolls and do your part in completing a quest.

In my opinion, the OP was wrong for not be prepared and know that there are no restoration pots. If someone has negative levels, even a shrine will only cure one level, so I stress the importance of greator restoration scrolls for your Cleric.

If you play a battle cleric and do not heal or help anyone but yourself then this advise is not for you.

Carry them? Sure.

Use them to enable poor playing and encourage mindless zerg-the-kill-count strategies? Thanks, but I'll pass.

Not saying that anyone in this thread is guilty of those tactics, but I've had my share of them while leveling.

[Vileborg]

Okay, I've read enough. Got through the first page and thought to myself, "Wow. Let's go on less than all the facts."

Fact 2: I'll admit, I was level 5, Fighter. Gear = Not Shabby. Plus, I think I was the only one with a GT Weapon.
Fact 3: Cleric had 1/2 mana left after using a shrine and I only remember having Death Ward on me 1 time. Where in the Sam Hill was all his mana going?

Most likely if you were the only one with a Ghost Touch weapon then you know where a good portion of the rest of the DPS was coming from. Sometimes it is better for the cleric to help eliminate the threat to the party even though his mana would be better served healing you instead of the undead. It's always a judgement call from the cleric as to where the mana is better spent.

Healing I primarily use Heal as it's 270hps for 35 mana and relieves most negative effects at the same time. If you have a full health obsession I will drive you crazy because the lower your health is when I cast heal the more mana efficient it is, and I won't let one fly unless your below 50% except to top you off going into a major fight. I've had a few people over the past couple of days who would wand whip themselves before each fight. I am the cleric, and it's part of my classes responsibility to heal but I refuse to waste mana when your down 50hp's, and it drives me insane to see people needlessly waste resources because of an Obsess/Comp Disorder about full health.

As for battle clerics, I've never hidden my disdain for the abomination that is a battle cleric. I have more disdain for them than any of you could ever know. Their standard argument is that they can heal and fight, but the truth is that they are a crippled cleric on the healing front and every one I've raided with was more a burden upon myself because I had to make up for their lack. The forums here seem to love them, but I guess thats because the real clerics are too busy healing in-game. I am a specialized healer, and when it comes to healing, "You have been weighed, measured, and found wanting." I could only wish that DDO would remove the cleric symbol from their character as soon as they deviate to preserve the purety of divinity.

/signed

A true clergy of mending

[Kalari]

My first character was a cleric, but then again, I am a casual noob.

So my opinion on who's responsibility it is to be sure everyone is prepped and ready, has the proper consumables and weapons, or at the very least, knows that no one knows what is coming and therefore everyone is ready for everything?

... The party leader.

You took the responsibility/initiative to put the group together, now take it a step further and:

1. Be sure everyone knows what style you plan on playing (zerg, rose smelling, fast pace, moderate pace, harpering).

2. Be sure everyone is equipped. Simply mention ghost touch, death ward (tangleroot goggles), lesser restore potions... and then asking the cleric if he/she will need assistance on supplies. Maybe loan a weapon to a newbie fighter.

3. Get an idea of your parties capabilities, and be ready to change gears if necessary. If your cleric overburns power, or doesn't take advice on what buffs to use, adjust your strategy. Slow down. Reroll. Look to see who the mana drain is. Do what you need to do, but lead your party. If a group fails, you can point blame at the cleric, or at the sponguey barb, or the no haste sorcerer.. or you can accept that as a party leader that you didn't adjust well to the circumstances.

4. Take into consideration everyone's abilities. Everyone can use potions, bards and rangers and pallys can assist heal, if you have wf then arcanes help there, find out the sorcs spells, offer suggestions to the cleric and wiz on what to mem. If the ranger has an 8 wisdom and no wands, find out before ya start.


When I lead a party, if we fail, it is my fault. If a cleric ran out of resources or if someone needed a lesser restore and didn't get one, it is my fault. If someone wasn't properly prepared, or I didn't recognize someone as being worthless and then not adjusting... you guessed it, my own **** fault. Or the tequila's. Or some woman's.

Great now anytime someone sucks (me included) I get to blame you?

Either way I still maintain low levels since you dont know if your dealing with new people that not having things to help yourself isnt so bad. By the time your mid to capped level if you cannot help your own ailments I dont feel bad for you. Not everyone who clerics carries all the necessary items to heal all ailments. I do but I have a few clerics under my belt now and I prefer it when I dont run out of stuff because of lazy players. Its probably one of the main reasons I dont pug much anymore either due to people insisting Clerics only be around to heal things they could chug a pot for. Clerics can do so much more and a good party realizes that.

[Kalari]

Most likely if you were the only one with a Ghost Touch weapon then you know where a good portion of the rest of the DPS was coming from. Sometimes it is better for the cleric to help eliminate the threat to the party even though his mana would be better served healing you instead of the undead. It's always a judgement call from the cleric as to where the mana is better spent.

Healing I primarily use Heal as it's 270hps for 35 mana and relieves most negative effects at the same time. If you have a full health obsession I will drive you crazy because the lower your health is when I cast heal the more mana efficient it is, and I won't let one fly unless your below 50% except to top you off going into a major fight. I've had a few people over the past couple of days who would wand whip themselves before each fight. I am the cleric, and it's part of my classes responsibility to heal but I refuse to waste mana when your down 50hp's, and it drives me insane to see people needlessly waste resources because of an Obsess/Comp Disorder about full health.

As for battle clerics, I've never hidden my disdain for the abomination that is a battle cleric. I have more disdain for them than any of you could ever know. Their standard argument is that they can heal and fight, but the truth is that they are a crippled cleric on the healing front and every one I've raided with was more a burden upon myself because I had to make up for their lack. The forums here seem to love them, but I guess thats because the real clerics are too busy healing in-game. I am a specialized healer, and when it comes to healing, "You have been weighed, measured, and found wanting." I could only wish that DDO would remove the cleric symbol from their character as soon as they deviate to preserve the purety of divinity.

/signed

A true clergy of mending

Vile you and I are never gonna see eye to eye on this just like you think a cleric who battles is wrong I think your ideal that a cleric should only heal and focus on such or they are not divine a mockery of the class. IN pen and paper many clerics I had the pleasure of running with or playing also battled. Its no fun to worry only about health of others when in the game this game was based on we even got domain spells to allow us to fight better in the name of our god. So you can have your contempt but I guarentee you there are plenty of battle clerics that can and do heal their party and keep potential wipes down.

[Quikster]

Most likely if you were the only one with a Ghost Touch weapon then you know where a good portion of the rest of the DPS was coming from. Sometimes it is better for the cleric to help eliminate the threat to the party even though his mana would be better served healing you instead of the undead. It's always a judgement call from the cleric as to where the mana is better spent.

Healing I primarily use Heal as it's 270hps for 35 mana and relieves most negative effects at the same time. If you have a full health obsession I will drive you crazy because the lower your health is when I cast heal the more mana efficient it is, and I won't let one fly unless your below 50% except to top you off going into a major fight. I've had a few people over the past couple of days who would wand whip themselves before each fight. I am the cleric, and it's part of my classes responsibility to heal but I refuse to waste mana when your down 50hp's, and it drives me insane to see people needlessly waste resources because of an Obsess/Comp Disorder about full health.

As for battle clerics, I've never hidden my disdain for the abomination that is a battle cleric. I have more disdain for them than any of you could ever know. Their standard argument is that they can heal and fight, but the truth is that they are a crippled cleric on the healing front and every one I've raided with was more a burden upon myself because I had to make up for their lack. The forums here seem to love them, but I guess thats because the real clerics are too busy healing in-game. I am a specialized healer, and when it comes to healing, "You have been weighed, measured, and found wanting." I could only wish that DDO would remove the cleric symbol from their character as soon as they deviate to preserve the purety of divinity.

/signed

A true clergy of mending

uhhhh..............fail.............uhhhhhh....... .....


Where you peeps come up with this stuff is beyond me. A cleric who does nothing more than sits back and heals is a waste to the group. I can do that with pots, all you are doing is taking up space of another useful party member.

[Lost_Leader]

Great now anytime someone sucks (me included) I get to blame you?

I'll need a definition please. If you die a bunch I don't equivocate that to you sucking... you dying just means I get to drink more and I get better loot. So you only suck if you play well and don't die? And if you aren't dying, that is definitely my fault.

[Velexia]

I play the Cleric Katran, and I would say that, in regards to the original post this situation is very subjective.

If the stat damage is Constitution, it should be dealt with right away.
If the stat damage is causing any form of burden or inability to act, it needs to be dealt with right away.
If the Cleric doesn't have wands and scrolls to cover this sort of thing, they are ill prepared, and need to fix that for the next time.
If the Cleric is running out of mana, it's usually because they are casting an excess amount of spells that they really don't need to, or someone in the party is being a healing sponge and needs some talking to (or the Cleric is a Battle Cleric, and you need a Healer in your party as well).

Recently I have been in quests where, once the Cleric has hit 0 SP they are bumps on a log.

All clerics of all levels should always have an excess of healing wands. At mid level you should have healing wands as well as wands for various ailments, and at high levels you should have all of the above in addition to healing scrolls, ressurection/raise dead scrolls, and other scrolls that will be useful (such as mass spells).

Even with all of this, you should still be making positive cash flow. As a player of a character that uses potions of healing as well, I can tell you that buying 100 cure serious wounds potions (and at least 100 of other various potions) is much more of a money sink that your standard Cleric shopping list.

Back to the conservation of mana, use your brains with your Cleric! Consider the average amount of hitpoints for each class, and use your healing spells accordingly. Also, take note of how much healing each of your spells does for a particular party member.

Here is a nice basic list... when the following members of your party are at less than 40% HP

Bard - Cure Critical
Barbarian - Heal
Cleric - Cure Critical (they can handle the rest)
Fighter - Cure Critical + Cure Moderate Mass
Monk - Cure Critical + Cure Moderate Mass
Ranger - Cure Critical + Cure Moderate Mass
Rogue - Cure Moderate Mass
Sorcerer - Cure Moderate Mass
Paladin - Heal
Wizard - Cure Moderate Mass

Those three spells are my main healing spells. I typically only let party members die when I am daydreaming or... they have gone out of range or around 5 corners.

If you find that the character isn't going directly to full hitpoints with the above spell suggestions, move it up a notch. Don't cast Mass spells when only one party member is hurt, and don't cast Mass spells when the party is split up, wait for that perfect moment when the Brownian motion of your party members clumps together! Also, top people off with wands when out of combat, or when combat is chill. Save your cure critical wands for when you have completely run out of mana!

...and that is my Cleric rant =)