Just make Devil Assault a RAID

[Angelus_dead]

Make your own perpendicular or lateral ones and let the Dev's decide.
It is clear enough that you disagree it would be good as a Raid, you can just leave it at that or suggest your own changes to make it work as such.

That's a widespread fallacy observed in internet discussions: If you can't do better, you're not allowed to criticize.

I wonder if there's a snappy name for that kind of response. It's like saying that only a film director is qualified to tell anyone if a movie is good or not; but in reality, it is useful to detect problems in something even if you don't have any solutions.

[KKDragonLord]

You can criticize and you already have, what i am proposing is that you make your own suggestions, since this is a "Suggestions" thread.

What you are currently debating is the philosophical semantics of what a Raid is and what should or shouldn't be.
I suggest you start your own thread at the General discussion section.

Btw, i don't consider it a fallacy since stating that the house is on fire is remarkably less useful than getting a bucket of water.

[eonfreon]

I would certainly support making Devil Assault into a worthwhile quest.

But not a low-level Raid.

To me that's an oxymoron.

The quest needs re-tooling in a big way.
It always seemed to me to be a rush job to fit into the Live Event at the time more than anything else.
Incredibly boring and pointless quest.

Make the quest better sure.
But I don't see the need for a Low Level Raid, especially at Level 6!

Just make the quest playable and develop NEW Raids at Cap.

Maybe having to assemble 12 players to play a Level 6 Raid might be fun for some.

But work to re-develop a little run quest into some sort of Raid for Lowbees?
A Raid that'll be run maybe once or twice before you've passed "level-appropriateness" is hardly at the level of "Raid".

I'm all for"fixing" unplayed Quests.

But can think of no reason to justify a Raid-type lowbee Adventure.

[Thanimal]

I've made no attempt to convince anyone of that in this thread. To explain it would take a serious effort- not because it's hard to figure out, but because it is easy.

I suggest you continue to make such an attempt. I believe it is a critical pillar of your position, and I further believe it is incorrect. (Though I remain open to be convinced otherwise by a compelling arugment.) If you can demonstrate that Raids are inherently only suitable to end-game content, then I know for sure I will stop arguing with you, and I suspect most others will as well.

However, instead of doing the work to write something exhaustive, I'll give one simple rationale for raids being high-level:
1. Essential to the definition of a "raid" is that the group size will be larger than normal.
2. Why would the group size be larger? Because there's a tougher challenge to overcome.
3. If the challenge is much tougher than level X, why not simply send in some characters of level X+5 instead?
4. If level X+5 characters exist, then that is the preferred solution.
5. If level X+5 characters do not exist, then an expanded group of level X characters instead makes sense, and we've got a raid.

Statement 4 does not seem to be logically correct. The answer to question 3 is simple: The rewards are inadequate. In fact, what you have written above doesn't seem to have anything to do with Raids at all. Why would I do WW with an at-level party when I could zerg-sprint solo it with my level 13 instead? I am failing to understand how this situation is any different. 6 level 11s running a raid intended for 12 level 6s are going to be awfully disappointed by the reward (both in XP and loot).

That is a false statement, as it depends on arbitrary definitons.

That sure seems like a vaccous refutation; I honestly have no idea what you mean. Why is it false? In fact, your own post above offers that as the only distinguishing characteristic of a Raid. As far as I can tell, a "Raid group" is literally *defined* by the fact that it raises the cap to 12 players. And it would be very strange to call that "abitrary" as it's what I (and I *think* everyone else) means when they use the word "Raid." What am I missing?

[eonfreon]

That sure seems like a vaccous refutation; I honestly have no idea what you mean. Why is it false? In fact, your own post above offers that as the only distinguishing characteristic of a Raid. As far as I can tell, a "Raid group" is literally *defined* by the fact that it raises the cap to 12 players. And it would be very strange to call that "abitrary" as it's what I (and I *think* everyone else) means when they use the word "Raid." What am I missing?

I also think of 12 Players when I think of Raid but that does not mean that Raids are 12 players.

Basically the definition of Raid is harder to define, except in the idea that it's whatever the Developer's wish to define as a Raid.
It is supposed to be a lot tougher than normal quests to justify both the extra people and the special rewards.
Which in a game like DDO basically translates into being so difficult and counter-intuitive that it either will cost a lot of resources or will require several attempts to "figure out".
This is something people are more willing to do when they are at endcap then while leveling, for the most part.

But even within DnD the term "Raid" has changed somewhat.

Until Mod 9 finally releases all earlier Raids (except for TS which is technically a 12 man Quest and NOT a Raid) have to be flagged for every time through the same old quests (Von,Titan, etc), can only be played every 3 days, need (maybe) up to 12 players to complete, and have a chance at a more powerful than normal at that level item.
To me that was the definition of Raid.
Then the Devs finally listened and got rid of the re-flag mechanism and voila Shroud, Hound, VOD.
So the definition of a DDO Raid no longer includes a reflag clause.

I'm just against the idea of putting the resources in to turn a low level quest into a proper Raid.
However, if they can just make so that a extremely bad quest like Devil Assault can be entered by 12 people with a flip of a switch or something and didn't waste any time making any further changes, eh, sure why not.
There's a social aspect to gathering 12 players together that could be interesting for a bunch of new players to do.

But that's as far as I could see with a lowbee Raid. Make it a Raid in name only and really just a 12 man instance for folks who like that and be done with it so that lowbees can get a simple taste of a "big group" without the rest of the pressure of a Raid.

As a True Raid I would avoid it at 6th level like the plague.

[Thanimal]

You've explained your thoughts well. Thank you. I am left with one question and one (and a half) comments:

(except for TS which is technically a 12 man Quest and NOT a Raid)

What do you mean by that? TS requires creating a "Raid Group," no? Doesn't that "technically" make it a Raid? Perhaps you mean it doesn't have all the same characteristics as the other Raids? Certainly that is true, and for that reason it's the one Raid my guild runs relatively frequently!

I'm just against the idea of putting the resources in to turn a low level quest into a proper Raid.

That is entirely reasonable, and I for one agree. But I believe others, notably A_D, are making a FAR stronger statement that having a low level Raid in the game would inherently make the game worse, regardless of development cost. I suppose if we all agree that allocating the resources to this isn't worthwhile, then the remaining difference of opinion wouldn't really matter. But in fact there are some folks who have posted here who at least think they would greatly enjoy a low-level Raid.

There's a social aspect to gathering 12 players together that could be interesting for a bunch of new players to do.

We agree on that. In fact, I think you and I agree on just about everything, except perhaps the details of what extra baggage the word "Raid" brings. (I claim none.)

[JakLee7]

Of course with the new F2P model, it is likely that we will have more lowbie players than capped - in fact I would be willing to hazard a guess that says there is ALWAYS a substantial amount of characters active that could play a level 6 raid. Unlike VON (I think level 10), Titan (level 12 I think) or Abbot (level 15 I think), there will always be a solid amount of low level characters around (as opposed to characters at level 10, 12, or 15 with the new level cap going to 20). So I would propose that a level 6 raid, if done in a way to make it interesting (either xp, loot, or favor) would continue have people run it regularly as there would be a signifcant population constant.

[Orratti]

I wouldn't say that you need to turn this quest into a raid. Went in with 6 the day it came out and almost completed it on elite. Would have if it hadn't been for the lag from everyone in game doing it at the same time. The lag was so bad you would throw a heal and the game would just freeze can't even remember how long it took for the action to begin again. I thought the whole server was gonna crash lol. No it can be done with 6 so that doesn't need to be changed. Besides it has no puzzles, no secret order anything needs to be done in, no monsters you can't kill or you will fail. In short nothing a noob can mess up that you can grief them about. Raids are kinda like clubs you got to look a certain way or know somebody or you can't get in. There is no secret knowledge necessary to defeat this quest no complicated puzzles to be solved. Its just one long hard battle to the end like desert caravan without the flesh to stone why make it easier by putting 12 people in there?

What it DOES need is some favor attached to it and some named loot. Something that says HEY I just went through the hardest longest battle in the whole game got 48 favor and this piece of uber loot that only 5 other guys on the server have. The reasons no one ever does the quest is that it is so hard and there is no reward. Make some reward and you will see folks doing the quest. I have tried to put groups up for it a couple of times. I get a few volunteers but the rest are scared of it. Scared of it I tell ya. What could be better than that cmon? So scared they want to be able to bring another six people along cause they don't think they can handle it. Just playing with you there so don't get your feathers ruffled. So drop some hot favor and awesome loot on it and you will see groups running it. I myself would still love to get another shot or two at it.

[bobbryan2]

I suggest you continue to make such an attempt. I believe it is a critical pillar of your position, and I further believe it is incorrect. (Though I remain open to be convinced otherwise by a compelling arugment.) If you can demonstrate that Raids are inherently only suitable to end-game content, then I know for sure I will stop arguing with you, and I suspect most others will as well.

At a certain point... explaining a position is just not worth it. Why raiding is an inherently level-cap activity should be completely self-evident. Whether it's flagging mechanisms, reward mechanisms or even just XP or group dynamics... everything about raiding points towards being aimed at level cap.

If a person can't see why it's a level-cap activity... it's just not worth getting into.

There's nothing wrong with making devil assault a 12 man quest. There is plenty wrong with making it a raid. But that's not even what the OP was suggesting. He was suggesting that the 'lack' of a raid at low levels was inherently bad. That particular statement is mind-boggling to me.

[bobbryan2]

Of course with the new F2P model, it is likely that we will have more lowbie players than capped - in fact I would be willing to hazard a guess that says there is ALWAYS a substantial amount of characters active that could play a level 6 raid. Unlike VON (I think level 10), Titan (level 12 I think) or Abbot (level 15 I think), there will always be a solid amount of low level characters around (as opposed to characters at level 10, 12, or 15 with the new level cap going to 20). So I would propose that a level 6 raid, if done in a way to make it interesting (either xp, loot, or favor) would continue have people run it regularly as there would be a signifcant population constant.

And the current failings of the VONs and Titan should be so evident as to why low level raids are a bad idea.

Can you even imagine how many people would run the titan if you took out the chattering ring, gloves, jungle cloak and every other item that someone might still use at level cap?

No one grinds for equipment they won't use for more than a few days.

Period.

[wemery73]

devil Assault Was A Pretty Fun Quest When It First Came Out. The Devs Spent Some Time (a Lot Even?) Creating The 6/12/18 Scaling For This Special Event Quest. I Understand The Quest Is Being Made Permanent Come Mod 9 Incuding Favor As Well...

Big Problem Is That No One Is Really Al That Interested In Running It Anymore. The Loot Is Just Standard Tables, Theres No Named Items, And Its A Long Drawn Out Quest With Little Incentive To Run It Mor Ethan Once Or Twice.

This Idea May Have Been Brought Up Before, It Probobly Was, But I Think It Deserves Another Thread And A Refreshed Concept.

People Have Been Clamoring For A Low Level Raid For Some Time. This Seems Like The Most Logical Place To Put It.

Story Is Solid. The Devil Forces Continue To Try To Breach Stomreach. We Must Stop The Breach And Close The Portals!

all Dificulties:
Quest Stays The Same For The Most Part. The First 3 Waves Are The Same With An Adjustment To Cr Or Spawn Rate To Compensate For 12 Man Raid Rather Than 6 Man Group.

After The Third Wave Is Defeated New Objection. Enter The Portal! This Ports Us To The Other Side Where We Must Face The Commander Of This Force. Defeat Him, And Close The Portal.

normal/ml6 Adjustments:
All Mobs Have The Chance To Drop Locust Husks And Lily Petals As Collectables. Mabe Some Of The New Rare Collectables As Well.


"raid" Loot Consists Of A Variety Of Basic +1 Silver Weapons Of Pure Good.

hard/ml12 Adjustments:
Planar Shards, Fungus, And Pebbles Now Drop As Collectables From The Mobs.

Raid Loot Consists Of Various Holy Silver Weapons. Greensteel Blanks Are Also In The Table.

elite/ml18 Adjustments:

Briar Twigs And Chipmuck Funk Drop As Collectables.

Raid Loot Consists Of Holy Bursting Silver Weapons Of Pure Good. Or Holy Solver Of Greater Good. Greenstell Blanks Also Drop At A Higher Rate.

All Difficulties:

The Drop Rate On These New Items Should Remain 1/6 Across All Difficulties. It Should Be Pretty Rare To Get Some Of Thes Enice Devil Beaters.

As An Alternative To The Silver Weapons Being In The Tables, There Could Be Runes Of Some Sort To Use As A Colectable To Turn In To A Dude To Trade For Some Various Weapons.. 10 Runes = Silver Of Pg, 25 = Holy Silver Of Pg, And 50 Runes To Get The Best Holy Silver Weapons. The Amount Of Runes You Get Would Scale With Difficultiy.

This Kind Of Improvement/change To The Quest Has A 3-fold Outcome.

1: Creates A "low Level" Raid. The Game Really Does Need This.

2: Creates A Way For Players To Btain Some Very Nice Weapons Touse Against The Devil Forces. (ala Invaders And Cold Iron Weapons)

3: Breaths New Life Into A Tired Quest. It Becomes Repeatable, It Becomes A Grind People Want To Do Like The Shroud.

Thoughts?

great Idea

[Zenako]

A little semi necro on this thread

Devil Assault gives Coin Lord Favor now (not sure if it just changed this mod or when)
Base Favor is 5 on the Normal Setting (I assume 10 on hard and 15 on Elite) with a 1900 Base EXP. (not too bad for a level 6 quest)

What I also found interesting was that the Quest notes when you look at it in your quest log, says....Suitable for 6 or more players

This seems to infer that you could enter as a Raid, but when I tried, it would not let me. Perhaps just changing that toggle would be all that is needed. Make it a F2P raid/quest. It is right in the Marketplace so no new zones are needed. I know it is listed as a purchaseable adventure pack, or so I have heard, and as such, it currently would be a waste of points. Perhaps they do have plans on making it something worth more than it currently is.