Just make Devil Assault a RAID

[JakLee7]

Reasons for lvl 6 12 man raid
1. It would be different than any other quest up to that point in the fact that it would allow 12 people a chance to play the same quest at the same time together. That is unique. Like TS is now (though you may not see TS runs, they crop up with startling regularity on Khyber).

2. Fun - sometimes it is just fun to kill things, very little would need to be changed with the quest as it is now for level 6, in fact because of how hard the final wave is, it might actually NOT need to be tweeked, 12 could handle it much better than 6 which might mean it would actually be MORE fun with 12 people.

3. Lowbies - there are some people who just like running the lowbie quests better, I know there are certain quests I *must* do when I am leveling a new character. Some of these are for the good XP, some are for usefull loot, some are to test weather the character build is actually going to be able to do what I want it to do (paper vs live). Powergamers could short man this for challenge, noobs could get into a big quest where the hardest part is staying alive & killing stuff -

4. Teamwork - you can't start training this too early - shroud 2 is a great example. I have been in groups that have great portal & harry beaters, but struggle on part 2 because they don't work well as a team. Simply having a quest where stuff spawns in a small room and needs to get beat down will help train new clerics on how to heal multiple battles, teach casters about crowd control, ect. Working together makes the quest easier, if people focus on killing something it will die faster & it is more obvious with 12 people hitting it than 6

The loot, while important, is actually irrelevant to weather we could USE a lvl 6 raid. Same with flagging, it is a red herring. The quest itself is either a valid idea or not - the details behind the rewards and how often you can play it have no bearing on weather the idea of a level 6 raid is worthwhile, only weather a PARTICULAR level 6 raid is worthwhile.

I personally think that by level 6 a character build is starting to have an idea of his/her place in a party. This could help a player with understanding that. I think that Kobold Assault was mentioned as a quest that people don't like, but I think in reviewing it that no one really likes it because it is long, the area is too big, there is no chest/loot worth anything, end reward stinks, & the only thing worth while is the favor, but if you don't have anyone to open it & you wan to do it at level, that is 3 runs at low levels, yeah it can be annoying.... This Devil's idea would not have that same problem as if you want hard or elite you would be a higher level...

Imp - I like the idea, don't quite see eye to eye on the rewards, but I am sure many people would disagree on many of the rewards that are already in the game, so not a big surprise. I think it would be a valuable addition to the game for the reasons listed above.

[Dark-Star]

I like the idea, a lot.

I enjoy soloing this quest on elite, it can be a real challenge for various builds.

My only comment is that your proposed items are far too powerful. The occasional GS blanks maybe, but not these really good OE beaters. Maybe a stack of 5 mana pots, level appropriate for each raid, or the like. Could even include the same loot table as the Skele in the Sub, again level appropriate (Sunblade in level 6, Icy in level 12, then GS blanks in level 18).

[Angelus_dead]

There seems to be some idea amongst a subset of players that the hardest content to defeat must be 12 player content, and all 6 player content is just 'warming up' for the 12 player stuff.

Yeah- they're called "devs".

I wish the devs didn't think that way, and have suggested many times that they move away from that model, so that being in a 6-player group isn't a waste of time from the perspective of endgame progression. No luck yet.

The mod9 content looks to be more of the same: the level 19 quests are easy, and in fact the new scaling means you can relax and farm them with 1-2 players. But getting loot from the raid is where the actual difficulty occurs, and it'll not only take 12 people to maximize loot, but also to affordably win (TOD is an easy place to watch stacks of mana pots vanish).

DDO's setup of having the toughest content split between both 6 and 12 player is far superior.

What

[Angelus_dead]

1. It would be different than any other quest up to that point in the fact that it would allow 12 people a chance to play the same quest at the same time together. That is unique.

"Different" and "unique" are really weak as reasons to do something.

2. Fun - sometimes it is just fun to kill things, very little would need to be changed with the quest as it is now for level 6

That's self-contradictory. If fighting mobs in that kind of situation was really fun, Devil Assault would already be popular.

in fact because of how hard the final wave is, it might actually NOT need to be tweeked, 12 could handle it much better than 6 which might mean it would actually be MORE fun with 12 people.

Uh, no. It's not good to stand around bored for 20 minutes just to have someone wake you up over voice yelling that there's 60 seconds until the dangerous mobs come, so you need to get buffed and organized.

The loot, while important, is actually irrelevant to weather we could USE a lvl 6 raid. Same with flagging, it is a red herring. The quest itself is either a valid idea or not

Yes, the loot problems would have to be solved for the raid to work, but that's a problem that only needs considering once it's established the goal is even worthwhile in the first place.

I personally think that by level 6 a character build is starting to have an idea of his/her place in a party.

The word "starting" is a reason to not have a level 6 raid.

[KKDragonLord]

"Different" and "unique" are really weak as reasons to do something.

Yeah everything should be the same. We need more collect type quests and more fedex quests they should add about 200 of those.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah everything should be the same. We need more collect type quests and more fedex quests they should add about 200 of those.

Do you understand the difference between a "weak reason" and a "bad reason"?

[KKDragonLord]

Yep, do you?

It is not a weak reason.

[Zaal]

This thread compells me to re-evaluate an earlier position I took: whether or not a users total number of posts is really a good indication of just how valuable said user's contributions are to our forum community.

[JayDubya]

I can guarantee you the answers will NOT be either of the following:

To gain xp to level up.

FAIL

I run the Reaver Raid, TS and VoN regularly as a way to level up my 9-14th level chars.

Not everyone plays the game the way you do.

I think it's a fine idea. A challenging 6th level raid with XP comparable to Stormcleave, Gwylans, etc would be very popular for several levels. Then, the 12th level version would present a new challenge.

Even if the end rewards weren't anything new, just some of the named loot that falls in some of the existing quests - mace of smiting, ring of feathers, Black Widow Bracers. Flesh Render Goggles in the 6th (for example) , Silver Longbow, Chaosguard, Planar Gird in the 12th

With my low-key playing style, it takes me weeks or months to level up chars, which is great because I enjoy the journey. Being able to pop into a DA raid on a whim sounds like a lot of fun.

[Shanar]

This thread compells me to re-evaluate an earlier position I took: whether or not a users total number of posts is really a good indication of just how valuable said user's contributions are to our forum community.

*laughs*

Yup, sounds about right to me. Many people have a lot to say, good or bad. Others just argue for the sake of arguing.

I personally think that Devil Assault would be a perfect raid, the way Impaqt described it. It gives newcomers a taste of the big leagues (raids, baby!) and an entry point into the whole Shavarath storyline. And getting silver holy weapons as end rewards? Brilliant. Greensteel blanks for hard and elite? Brilliant. I would run that raid ASAP if it gave me a free GS blank without even having to step into the Vale. Plus it would make an otherwise snorefest into an actually useful quest.

/signed

[JayDubya]

"Different" and "unique" are really weak as reasons to do something.

Only if you've already decided you dislike the idea. If you're neutral, the idea of something being fresh and different is fairly appealing. Not sufficient by themselves, but 'wow, that's a different kind of quest' is, historically, been a pretty good starting point. But of course, since you consider yourself to be the Inspired Vessel Of All Truth, I'm sure you won't see it that way.

The word "starting" is a reason to not have a level 6 raid.

yes, just like it's fine for 7 year old boys to play informal touch football in the yard, but it would never do to have them playing in a formal league with games and refs and all that. They're just starting to learn their place on the team, after all.

[JakLee7]

"Different" and "unique" are really weak as reasons to do something.

No they are not, that is part of playing a bigger game, if every quest ran exactly the same way, it would be very, very boring. Instead there are different types of quests, some of which YOU may find boring, some that I may find boring, some LOTS of people will find boring; but that does NOT mean they are not worth while as a quest. Typically MMO's are going to cater to those that spend the most money (under the F2P model), and different (especially as a free hook to raids, where I am assuming the remaining raids are all P2P) just may be the thing to help them MAKE money.

That's self-contradictory. If fighting mobs in that kind of situation was really fun, Devil Assault would already be popular.

It might be MORE popular if you could already bring in 12 people, got Favor, or actual loot too, but unless they change it we will never know....

Uh, no. It's not good to stand around bored for 20 minutes just to have someone wake you up over voice yelling that there's 60 seconds until the dangerous mobs come, so you need to get buffed and organized.

Which wouldn't happen with 12 people at level..... maybe higher levels, but if they sped up the spawn rate some, increased the over all spawns slightly, that would be good enough in MY opinion, but again, that is just my opinion....

Yes, the loot problems would have to be solved for the raid to work, but that's a problem that only needs considering once it's established the goal is even worthwhile in the first place.

which is why I thought we should forget the loot at first too, if we can't even agree that the quest is worth having, no point in arguing over what the rewards should be, LOL

The word "starting" is a reason to not have a level 6 raid.

Not by itself; however that is why it was only PART of the whole reason.

[Angelus_dead]

If people really think that, I'd encourage them to try WoW, which (at endgame) has its 5 player content (all pretty easy), then its 10 player stuff (beatable if you know the tricks) then the 25 player content (designed in some cases to be nightmarishly tough).

That is quite untrue.

In reality, whenever WOW adds a 25 man quest they add a 10 man version as well. It's a copy of the whole exact raid quest, but manually adjusted with weaker monsters and loot so as to be appropriate for the smaller group. You choose which version you want to play as you start the instance. The general idea is that the version for the larger group will be harder, but sometimes the reverse has happened. The Sarth raid, for example, was decidedly harder with 10 players (because there are 4 bosses at once, and it's tough to split the group down that far)

However, the WOW developers have certainly learned that it's a mistake to design areas that are only playable in the largest groups. That's why they reduced their max raid size from 40 to 25, and also now give every raid a 10-man mode.

For example, look at this WOW announcement from today:

She has lurked in her lair and done battle with the many brave adventurers who travelled to that familiar location over the years. Now, in honor of the World of Warcraft 5-year anniversary, the dreaded brood mother Onyxia is being revamped to make a return to the forefront of Azeroth, as part of our big plans for the upcoming 3.2.2 content patch.

This permanent update to Onyxia will convert the dungeon into 10- and 25-player modes

Notice a pattern here?
The DDO devs have never released a raid at below the level cap.
The WOW devs release raids at the level cap, and also repeatedly fix old raids by boosting them to the new top level.
Hmm....! Why would they do that? Could it be that they're aware that raids are inherently top-level content?

[JakLee7]

Of course, you can readjust the raid the other direction as well, once level cap has moved up, you drop the 3day wait timer (ala TS currently) and let people farm to their own content; but that is WOW, and this is DDO, just because they are doing something does not mean we should as well. Raids can work at any level if done well; more so now that F2P players may be spending much more time at certain levels than P2P'ers ever will.

If I had to spend $10 to purchase VON 1-6, I would darn well want to run it as much as possible. Something like this idea from Imp could be given out for free. It would require very little tweaking to make functional as a raid, and would give F2P'ers an idea as to what higher level content raids experiences can be like. Yes, some might be turned off, but that doesn't mean everyone will (see I hate VOD, lots of bad experiences, but alot my friends LOVE it).

While not giving a blanket pass to all Imp's ideas, I think the core idea is very sound & think this could be a nice way to reuse content.

[Angelus_dead]

Raids can work at any level if done well

That does not appear to be true. Can you defend that claim?

[Thanimal]

raids are inherently top-level content?

You've asserted that repeatedly, but have completely failed to convince me. I'm not saying you're wrong (though I admit I suspect you are), but it doesn't seem to me you've offered any compelling evidence that is the case.

The only fundamental difference between a regular quest and a raid is the option to bring up to 12 players. It doesn't make any sense to me that a 6 man team is somehow appropriate for nearly all of the game's content, but that a 12-man team is somehow end-game appropriate.

It's harder to assemble a 12-person team, so the amount of content that "requires" it should be limited. But what does that have to do with what level a raid is targetted to? So long as the 12-person raid is actually worthwhile content (i.e. fun, level appropriate difficultly, slightly better rewards than 6-man quests at level), I can't think of any reason it won't fill. If I put up an LFM for a Delera's run, it fills very quickly because people want to do the quest. If I put up an LFM for Archer Point Defense, it doesn't, because the quest sucks. My point is: Quest desirability dictates how easy it is to fill a party to a far greater extent than the size of the team that is desired.

So I can't think of a reason it would be a special challenge to fill a 12-person lowbie party if the quest is one people want to do. And with it being a unique experience at that level, that would help people want to do it (so long as it doesn't suck in other respects).

[KKDragonLord]

That is quite untrue.

In reality, whenever WOW adds a 25 man quest they add a 10 man version as well. It's a copy of the whole exact raid quest, but manually adjusted with weaker monsters and loot so as to be appropriate for the smaller group. You choose which version you want to play as you start the instance. The general idea is that the version for the larger group will be harder, but sometimes the reverse has happened. The Sarth raid, for example, was decidedly harder with 10 players (because there are 4 bosses at once, and it's tough to split the group down that far)

However, the WOW developers have certainly learned that it's a mistake to design areas that are only playable in the largest groups. That's why they reduced their max raid size from 40 to 25, and also now give every raid a 10-man mode.

For example, look at this WOW announcement from today:


Notice a pattern here?
The DDO devs have never released a raid at below the level cap.
The WOW devs release raids at the level cap, and also repeatedly fix old raids by boosting them to the new top level.
Hmm....! Why would they do that? Could it be that they're aware that raids are inherently top-level content?

What the wow devs do isn't really all that important here.

What is being proposed is that Devil Assault, a cool but time consuming quest with very little incentive to play, be changed to allow raid groups and include meaningful loot in order to make it more popular.

Whatever the suggestions for "meaningful loot" were made, those are strictly optional, the point is to make a second raid, and a three level tiered one at that, available to F2P and VIPs alike.

The changes proposed can be minor or can be major, i myself believe it to take very little effort to do enough to make it worthwhile.

I even suggest making the raid related to Invaders!, maybe as flagging for lvls 12 and 18 and allow drops of outsider tokens and planar shards respectively from the mobs.

These days Tempest Spine, Von and others are no longer lvl Cap raids. The very example you cited was exactly modifications to an already existing content to make it appeal to end-game players at a more advanced state of the game.

Releasing a new raid for anything lower than Cap is truly not a very good idea at all.
What is truly being proposed here is not that. Its merely a revamping of an existing quest to make it worth running and by doing so, extending the usefulness of content already in the game without having to truly create something new.

The Devs are the ones who would decide how much work would be worth spending on it.

Nevertheless i do believe its an excellent idea, and i would run it on all levels available.

[Angelus_dead]

Releasing a new raid for anything lower than Cap is truly not a very good idea at all.
What is truly being proposed here is not that. Its merely a revamping of an existing quest to make it worth running and by doing so, extending the usefulness of content already in the game without having to truly create something new.

The suggestions to make it worth playing are orthogonal to changing it into a raid.

[KKDragonLord]

The suggestions to make it worth playing are orthogonal to changing it into a raid.

Make your own perpendicular or lateral ones and let the Dev's decide.
It is clear enough that you disagree it would be good as a Raid, you can just leave it at that or suggest your own changes to make it work as such.

[Angelus_dead]

You've asserted that repeatedly, but have completely failed to convince me.

I've made no attempt to convince anyone of that in this thread. To explain it would take a serious effort- not because it's hard to figure out, but because it is easy.

However, instead of doing the work to write something exhaustive, I'll give one simple rationale for raids being high-level:
1. Essential to the definition of a "raid" is that the group size will be larger than normal.
2. Why would the group size be larger? Because there's a tougher challenge to overcome.
3. If the challenge is much tougher than level X, why not simply send in some characters of level X+5 instead?
4. If level X+5 characters exist, then that is the preferred solution.
5. If level X+5 characters do not exist, then an expanded group of level X characters instead makes sense, and we've got a raid.

The only fundamental difference between a regular quest and a raid is the option to bring up to 12 players.

That is a false statement, as it depends on arbitrary definitons.