Axesinger (28-point DPS Warchanter)

[Thanimal]

(This is ridiculously long as usual...)

I've gotten several requests for my Victorrea build when I mentioned it in other threads, so I thought I'd publish it in one place to be able to link to it.

The basic idea of this build is to get most of the party benefits of being a Warchanter while also having quite high individual DPS and better-than-expected defenses. This isn't a true "beginner's" build because it requires some +1 Tomes eventually, but this build is very accessible to the non-Power-Gamer.

Secondarily, I wanted to put down a couple of common myths: 1) Bards can only be built with 32-points. I'm not sure where this one comes from. We'll see that the extra 4 points really don't change much here. 2) Bards aren't suitable to soloing. This build is very soloable through mid levels, and possibly beyond.

Goals:
- High DPS. May even lead in kills in some not-very-uber parties. This is one of the highest "realistic" DPS Bard builds available currently. Net contribution to DPS from songs and axes is hard to beat.
- Near full Song value, including the probably-very-important-in-Mod-9 DR song.
- Passable spell buffs, mostly for self.
- Good saves, Evasion, and marginally useful AC
- Passable HP -- enough to avoid sudden death

Warnings:
- This is not a good caster! If you are looking for a caster, look elsewhere. Heck, my "Paladin" Killer Frog build has more spell points at some levels! This build is about Songs and DPS, but the spell bar does contribute several handy things, including backup healing.
- This build misses the 3rd tier of Warchanter. I predict that will be rather ho-hum, because the first tier is too good to continue. (See Tempest.) If you predict otherwise, don't build this!
- Despite Bard and Rogue levels, you don't get trap skills out of this, except passable Open Lock. (A 32-point build probably could get trap skills if strongly desired, but I think that's a waste of the points, personally.)

One question some may have is: Why Dwarf? There are a lot of small reasons, and one bigger one. Small reasons include the best possible AC (though still only marginally valuable), and free use of a very good melee weapon with racial enhancements (but Human could get Khopesh with bonus feat so Dwarven Axe alone would be a weak reason). The big reason is the saves. The higher CON and the Dwarven spell save bonuses mean this build has decent saves accross the board, which is very significant and hard to achieve in any other race. Halfing could come close, but not on Fortitude.

EDIT: A compelling case has been made for the final level to be Rogue rather than Bard, so updated accordingly. Since most of the numbers I figured were for 16, these don't change much of my post.

Axesinger
28-point Dwarf Bard 15/Fighter 2/Rogue 3
STR 16 [10] +5 bumps + 1 Fighter + 6 item + 2 Rage = 30 [+2 Tome + 2 exceptional = 34]
DEX 16 [10] +1 Tome (rqrd for iTWF) + 6 item + 1 Rogue = 24
CON 12 [2] +1 Dwarf + 6 item +1 tome +2 Rage = 22 [+3 Tome = 24]
CHA 12 [6] +1 Tome (rqrd for Force of Personality) +2 Bard + 6 item = 21 [+2 Tome = 22]
INT 8 [0]
WIS 8 [0]

If you have 32-point builds, I suggest starting CON at 16. Significant extra hit points and a little more help on Fort save is nice-to-have, but hardly critical to the build.
Putting more points in CHA doesn't seem the best investment, as you'll still be a craptastic caster -- the +1 Will save would be a benefit, but +2 Fort save seems better.
If you are a real Power-Gamer, then you can also consider: Take DEX down to 15, and count on a +2 Tome to meet the TWF prereqs, and this allows you start STR at 18. For a nearly-all-out DPS Bard, this is certainly nice, but personally I'd take the +40 hp/+2 fort save instead.

Alignment: Anything except Lawful (as Bards can't be). The "ideal" end-game alignment is True Neutral -- that avoids all alignment damage and you have plenty of UMD to ignore alignment requirements on gear. However, a new player will probably have an easier time of it as Chaotic Good, which allows using Iron Manacles and Pure Good weapons at a much lower level before UMD really gets good.

Levels and Feats
EDIT 2009/10/30: Switch the order of FoP and Focus, due to new min level on +1 Tomes. That's actually kind of unfortunate, but in the end it all ends up the in the same place.
1: Rogue. Toughness
2: Fighter. FBF: TWF
3: Bard. Focus: Slashing
4/5: Bard
6: Bard. Force of Personality (Important: Can take Iron Will here until find +1 CHA Tome)
7: Rogue
8: Fighter. FBF: iTWF ("must" find +1 DEX Tome by here)
9: Bard. Power Attack
10: Bard (Warchanter hits here)
11: Bard
12: Bard. Extend
13/14: Bard
15: Bard. gTWF (BAB is exactly 11 here)
16/17: Bard
18: Bard. iCrit:Slashing (or Maximize if going for Bard 16/backup healer route)
19: Bard
20: Rogue

DPS
DPS is quite solid here. gfunk has shown a similar build can achieve 80% of The Monster, and this one actually has slightly better best-case DPS than the 18/2 builds he examined. For solo DPS, it's tough to beat this build, since you can Haste and Warchant yourself.

Saves @ 16
Non-uber equipment
Bard 12: 4/8/8
Fighter 2: 3/0/0
Rogue 2: 0/3/0
Stats: 5/7/6
Dwarven Resist: 4/4/4
Resist: 5/5/5
GH: 4/4/4
Luck: 1/1/1
---
26/32/28 (with Evasion)

Almost tank-like saves: possibly my favorite thing about the build. While careful play and buffs like Displacement can make AC less important, only saves work when mass-effect spells are flying everywhere. Don't try to run Elite traps, though -- Dwarven Resist doesn't count against those, leaving you far short at 28.
Victorrea was actually the winner of a Bard-Off with a Human Spellsinger idea I had. The two builds were completely different, but one of the key reasons I chose Victorrea was that the other guy was just blowing too many saves.

AC @ 16
10 base
10 armor (+5 Mithral Breast Plate; DT light armor is kinda sucky and Icy Raiments/Armored bracers can only tie)
1 Alchemical
7 dex (with enhancements)
5 Protection
2 Chaosgarde

Standard self-buff
4 Shield (UMDed from wand)
1 Haste (cast)
3 Bark (potion)
---
43

Party buffs
+5 Paladin aura
+2 real Ranger
+2 Recitation
---
52

Possibly unrealistic equipment (due to lack of slots)
+3 Dodge
+4 Insight
---
59

This just in: You're not the tank! (And even less so with Rage, which should usually be on.)
That said, AC here is sometimes useful! A-O and Yargore have demonstrated that low 50s can provide full protection in some parts of some end-game content on Normal. So in those spots even low-40s stops half the incoming damage. That's significant, especially combined with Displacement. Starting at 19, we can also AC-song ourselves. So don't count on AC to save you from all damage, but don't give up on it either.

Enhancements through 20
(in no particular order)
EDIT 2009/10/27: Two typos were present below, including an important incorrect value. AND Mod 9 increased the cost of the Dwarven Axe Damage line. So several minor changes were necessitated.
6 Dwarven Armor Mastery II
6 Dwarven spell Resist III
6 Dwarven Axe Attack II
6 Dwarven Axe Damage II
3 Bard Lingering Song II
3 Bard Song Magic II
3 Bard Energy of Music II
1 Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I
6 Bard Inspired Damage III
12 Bard Inspired Attack III
3 Bard Inspired Bravery II (Warchanter prereq)
4 Bard Warchanter I
6 Bard CHA II
2 Fighter STR I
2 Rogue DEX I
2 Dwarf CON I
1 Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
1 Fighter Toughness I
1 Fighter Haste Boost I
6 Dwarven Toughness III
---
80

Note: At low levels, you probably want Extra Song I and maybe II. But long term respec those out as you'll have plenty of songs and have other needs.
By the end-game, Dwarven Armor Mastery may drop (replaced by Bard CHA III), if superceded by better equipment that gets the same AC without it. But I wouldn't give up the AC -- it really is useful.

Skills
Perform: Full ranks (easy to top off on Bard levels)
UMD: Full ranks
Jump: A few ranks when you can spare them (notably 4 at level 1)
Balance: A few ranks when you can spare them (notably 4 at level 1)
Open Lock: Half ranks (note massive catchup at level 7 when take Rogue 2)

This build isn't really about skills, except Perform and UMD are key. The others are all skills that can make a nice contribution without full ranks, so why not?

UMD is probably the one skill we care where ends up (EDITED; forgot Shroud item is Exceptional so stacks with Cartouche):
At 16: 19 ranks + 6 CHA + 3 Cartouche + 6 Shroud Item + 4 GH = 38. Full success on Resurrect, and 95% on Heal. Not all that impressive for a Bard, but still a tremendous asset. Note 100% on Heal by level 17.

Spells in order taken
1: Cure Light Wounds, Expeditious Retreat, Focusing Chant, Remove Fear
2: Cure Moderate Wounds, Blur, Heroism, Rage
3: Haste, Displacement, Cure Serious Wounds, Remove Curse
4: Freedom of Movement, DDoor, Cure Critical Wounds, Break Enchantment
5: Greater Heroism, Cure Light (Mass), Greater Dispel

Toward the end of each level's selection is pretty lame (except Rage which some may prefer to take even earlier), but there are a few spells above that are extremely helpful, even from a short spell point bar.

Spell points @ 16
Without heavy farming
126 CHA bonus points
325 Bard 12
100 Pearl of Power X
40 Energy of Music II
---
591

With farming
+50 Wizardry 6 (Shroud item)
100 Elemental bonus (Shroud item)
---
741

Not a lot. Don't expect it to be. But plenty to keep key buffs on yourself.

Hit points @ 16
Without effort
20: base
72: 12 Bard
20: 2 Fighter
12: 2 Rogue
18: Toughness
40: Toughness Enhancements
20: IFL
96: CON (including Rage but not a +3 Tome)
20: Minos Hat (added 8/12/09)
---
318

With effort
+10: Draconic
+45: Shroud Item
+10: GFL over IFL
+16: +3 CON Tome over +1 CON Tome
---
399

+32: 32-point build with 16 starting CON
---
431

Obviously HP were never going to be amazing, but pretty darned solid for a Bard.

Phew, that's the end.

[maddmatt70]

Why not a 3rd level of rogue? Level 16 bard does not add very much to this build because this build does not make much use of level 6 bard spells. Second question is why force of personality which is the most overrated bard feat of all time? It is very easy for a bard to have a high will save so FOP becomes unecessary. The feat options which are bettter include maximize or empower healing, oversized twf, or even khopesh proficiency. I would either go with a 3rd level of rogue and change FOP to oversized twf or khopesh prof or swap fop to maximize or empower healing and not pick up the third level of rogue but go with cure lt and cure mod for mass healing.

Edit: saw your end comment.. Well you got some comments from me anyway I guess.

[Thanimal]

Why not a 3rd level of rogue? Level 16 bard does not add very much to this build because this build does not make much use of level 6 bard spells. Second question is why force of personality which is the most overrated bard feat of all time? It is very easy for a bard to have a high will save so FOP becomes unecessary. The feat options which are bettter include maximize or empower healing, oversized twf, or even khopesh proficiency. I would either go with a 3rd level of rogue and change FOP to oversized twf or khopesh prof or swap fop to maximize or empower healing and not pick up the third level of rogue but go with cure lt and cure mod for mass healing.

Edit: saw your end comment.. Well you got some comments from me anyway I guess.

I disagree on FoP, which is a net +7 to Will save. If I were looking at 30 vs. 37, I might agree with you. But 21 vs. 28 is very different.

You're probably right about Rogue 3. Could be a good choice at level 20 after all the Bard stuff is settled. I'll mull that over and possibly update.

I didn't really mean feedback wasn't welcomed -- just meant I planned to ignore it more than I usually do.

[EinarMal]

I think halfling would be better if your goal is DPS. With Khopesh and an additional 11.5 (15/3/2 vs. 16/2/2) damage per swing from sneak attack. I originally had 14/4/2 but changed it to 15/3/2 but never bothered to update the thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173993

[Thanimal]

I think halfling would be better if your goal is DPS. With Khopesh and an additional 11.5 (15/3/2 vs. 16/2/2) damage per swing from sneak attack. I originally had 14/4/2 but changed it to 15/3/2 but never bothered to update the thread.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173993

Well, DPS is a goal. No doubt a Halfling build is excellent and capable of higher best-case DPS, but Khopesh costs a feat in a feat-starved build, and Dwarf brings a lot of toughness (lower case t). The Dwarf also has much more stable DPS when it doesn't have SA or when the opponent has Fort. What I was looking for was a high-DPS Bard that also offered as much durability as I could fit -- especially saves. Also, Warchanters can have issues with hitting (-2 TWF, -2 heavy off-hand, -5 PA), so I feel the +2 axe to-hit should not be discounted. Finally, I have a lot more spell points than the linked build, and Extend, so the buffing power of this build is a bit higher.

In no way are any of these slam-dunk points, but my personal preference is the Dwarf.
I encourage the reader to make his/her own choice.

[Thanimal]

Updated for Rogue at 20.

See also this very similar build for ideas:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195090

[EinarMal]

Well, DPS is a goal. No doubt a Halfling build is excellent and capable of higher best-case DPS, but Khopesh costs a feat in a feat-starved build, and Dwarf brings a lot of toughness (lower case t). The Dwarf also has much more stable DPS when it doesn't have SA or when the opponent has Fort. What I was looking for was a high-DPS Bard that also offered as much durability as I could fit -- especially saves. Also, Warchanters can have issues with hitting (-2 TWF, -2 heavy off-hand, -5 PA), so I feel the +2 axe to-hit should not be discounted. Finally, I have a lot more spell points than the linked build, and Extend, so the buffing power of this build is a bit higher.

In no way are any of these slam-dunk points, but my personal preference is the Dwarf.
I encourage the reader to make his/her own choice.

More stable DPS how? Dwarf with axe enhancements is almost equal to Khopesh.

Not sure where you are getting the "lot more spell points either"

Extend is a difference...

Anyway just another alternative with significantly higher DPS potential when running with a good DPS build.

[Aerendil]

One question some may have is: Why Dwarf? There are a lot of small reasons, and one bigger one.

Just extracting that little bit so I can take it out of context and use the first part as a pun, and the second as a sexual reference.

[Thanimal]

More stable DPS how? Dwarf with axe enhancements is almost equal to Khopesh.

Yeah, that was unclear. Just mean that against 100% Fort, this build does much better. In total, the Halfling loses the SA advantage and the Daxe passes the Khopesh (by a decent margin) if facing 100% Fort. Admittedly this is a minor point in DDO currently, although a few key raid enemies do have high Fort.

Not sure where you are getting the "lot more spell points either"

4 more points of CHA. In a build with pretty poor spell points, those 50 spell points aren't quite a trivial percentage.

Anyway just another alternative with significantly higher DPS potential when running with a good DPS build.

Agreed.

[gfunk]

Some thoughts from my recent experiences leveling a 28 point multiclass dwarven bard.

I made my 28 pointer as:
14 str
15 dex
16 con
10 int
8 wis
12 cha

currently bard 15/fighter1 ( I will go bard 18/fighter 2 in case there are any decent prestige enhancements coming. Disregarding this, I agree that 15bard/2fighter/3rogue is the better build)

I made him in a similar scenario that new players might find themselves in, as it was my first build on a new server. Key differences from your build are 4 more con, and 2 less str.

I think the extra con makes a large part of the difference in being able to melee in part 4 shroud or not... the extra 32 hp (at lvl 16) seems valuable in sub-400 hp builds though I think yours may do better with evasion. At 1 build point/ point of con (up to 16), I find it hard not to take at least 16 con on a dwarf... and it seems a reasonable trade off for 1 less to-hit/damage for me. I entirely agree with your 32-point allocation... I think its pretty ideal.

I would take extend early on instead of FOP... longer hastes and displacements help a melee bard out alot imo, and help get more distance out of the paltry mana reserves.

I would also consider (for a casual 28 pointer):
16 str
15 dex
16 con
8 int
8 wis
10 cha

I would then just wait for the favor tome to get the required 17 dex for twf (and respec at that point). 1750 favor will be easier to get then ever with more quests and more people grinding for turbine points. I think THF is actually pretty decent for a dwarven bard (and better at low levels esp imo), and would serve nicely until 17 dex could be achieved (and the extra to-hit bonus might make it better in many cases). The main reason I like TWF for bard is because of the ability to put a weapon that has either devotion / potentcy / healing amp / or some other effect that increases surviveability into an off-hand (as I find melee bards to be starved for gear slots).

I would also consider empower-healing instead of FOP.. I think it may give more surviveability, as self-healing is pretty anemic with the failure chance the build will have on heal scrolls. I find myself always wishing that my guy had some more healing capability, as people are always calling on him to "throw them a heal".. something that this sort of build doesn't do very well.

[Thanimal]

Excellent suggestions as usual, gfunk. Many good ideas on how to customize for what you want.

Frankly, nobody is prying FoP from my build with a +20 Krobar of Feat Removal. Every time I've built a Bard I've hated the Will save because WIS is a dump-stat (even more so for 28-point build). I simply cannot play characters whose Will saves are anything but excellent. Heck, Vandt (my "Rogue") only ever fails Will saves on 1s and I am really grumpy about THAT -- greatly looking forward to Slippery Mind at next level.

But apparently most people view Will save differently, so keep my biases in mind when considering the build.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

I noticed you didn't take Good Hope spell...is this because Good Hope's +2 damage bonus does not stack with....song/rage/something else? ... or is it because Remove Curse is more useful?

[Thanimal]

I noticed you didn't take Good Hope spell...is this because Good Hope's +2 damage bonus does not stack with....song/rage/something else? ... or is it because Remove Curse is more useful?

Good Hope is morale bonus on attack, saves, abilities, skills, and weapon damage.

The song gives morale bonus on attack and damage, so Good Hope doesn't stack with that.

Heroism or Greater Heroism give morale bonus on saves and skills, so Good Hope doesn't stack with that.

And since I don't know what "abilities" even is, I'm not sure what that's worth.

So as far as I can tell, Good Hope usually doesn't do anything at all. Does anyone know anything I'm forgetting?

[Alcides]

Couple of things I will suggest since I have a Level 16 Dwarven Warchanter (32pt build) that uses Dual Dwarven Axes and GTWF.

1. 12 Con is not enough. Unlock 32pt builds and go with 16 con.
2. Master's Touch spell will give you Dwarven Axe proficiency for free on a dwarf.
3. You don't need Improved Critical:Slashing with Mineral 2 Dwarven Axes.
4. Force of Personality is not necessary for your will save if you are smart about using GH/Inspire Heroics on yourself.
5. Get enough clickies for about 30 charges of Divine Power.
6. Stay Pure Bard; 18 Bard/2 Rogue; Or 18 Bard/2 Fighter

Feats
1. Weapon Focus: Slashing
3. Power Attack
6. Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15. Extend
18. Toughness

[maddmatt70]

Couple of things I will suggest since I have a Level 16 Dwarven Warchanter (32pt build) that uses Dual Dwarven Axes and GTWF.

1. 12 Con is not enough. Unlock 32pt builds and go with 16 con.
2. Master's Touch spell will give you Dwarven Axe proficiency for free on a dwarf.
3. You don't need Improved Critical:Slashing with Mineral 2 Dwarven Axes.
4. Force of Personality is not necessary for your will save if you are smart about using GH/Inspire Heroics on yourself.
5. Get enough clickies for about 30 charges of Divine Power.
6. Stay Pure Bard; 18 Bard/2 Rogue; Or 18 Bard/2 Fighter

Feats
1. Weapon Focus: Slashing
3. Power Attack
6. Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15. Extend
18. Toughness

I tell you what I would suggest is dump cha to 8 and put those points in con and also get rid of FOP.. Regarding your point 6 if you are going to melee all the time go for a higher dps like the OPs build the party will do more dps that way then if a prestige enhancement comes someday for bards at level 18 just respec this build.

[78mackson]

good hope also cures despair(which I´ve seen on several q´s).... and is the lazy bards GH buff

[Uberbaby]

Thanimal, Nice Build! Just roll him up.

You may want to add Alignment, since I believe, Bards have restrictions.

As always, your posts are interesting.

[Thanimal]

Thanimal, Nice Build! Just roll him up.

You may want to add Alignment, since I believe, Bards have restrictions.

As always, your posts are interesting.

THANKS! (Feel free to rate the thread or send some rep my way... I'm not very entertaining, so I need to milk rep when folks find my stuff useful. )

You kinda caught me on alignment . The only restriction is that Bards can't be Lawful (nor Evil in DDO b/c nobody can be), but that doesn't really clear things up. If you're not much of an end-game player, then I recommend Chaotic Good (which is what I did). This will let you use Pure Good weapons and Iron Manacles before your UMD hits 20. Then at higher levels you'll have enough UMD to use pretty much whatever you want (including Chaosgarde mentioned in the post).

However, my (very limited) understanding of the end-game suggests you may want to consider True Neutral, because that makes you immune to some of the nastier alignment-based damage, such as Unholy. And long term that's probably the only aspect of your alignment that matters, due to aforementioned UMD.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

Thanimal: I have played a spellsinger bard in the past, so I am used to buffing (song, extend, blur, gh, displacement, haste, etc.) the party at intervals. Now I am playing a warchanter multiclass, similar to this build in this thread. Limited mana pool compared to my spellsinger. Do you have the mana to buff up the party all the time? Or do you just song them and then blur/disp yourself? Or, do you only blur/displ them before big battles?

[78mackson]

Thanimal: I have played a spellsinger bard in the past, so I am used to buffing (song, extend, blur, gh, displacement, haste, etc.) the party at intervals. Now I am playing a warchanter multiclass, similar to this build in this thread. Limited mana pool compared to my spellsinger. Do you have the mana to buff up the party all the time? Or do you just song them and then blur/disp yourself? Or, do you only blur/displ them before big battles?

Throwing displacements which is a kinda short buff on the whole party is a waste imho sometimes if u notice that someone is packing alot of heat I might throw one on him... same thing goes for AC-song.. unless someone is sending me a tell or is an obvious tank I couldnt care less..