Axesinger (28-point DPS Warchanter)

[Thanimal]

What are your thoughts on going THF with Great Axes instead of TWF for this build? I ask because TWF without Tempest doesn't feel right to me and, fro what I read, THF has made great strides in the last patches to be more competitive with TWF. It would allow to reduce DEX and increase CON.

Tempest is only a (fairly small) part of the story with TWF vs. THF. What's much more significant is that many of the game's buffs -- notably including the Warchanter-enhanced Bard song! -- are applied per HIT. So the value of those bonuses is doubled up by going TWF.

THF can stay competitive by a variety of ways:
1) Ridiculous STR. The STR bonus is equal between THF (1.5) and TWF (1 + 0.5), so the more STR you have the larger a fraction of damage is the same between the two styles. This also indirectly plays into some of the following points.
2) Extra glancing blows and extra chance to apply affects. Barbarians, Kensai Fighters, and WF can increase this, which has the potential to be very significant.
3) Class effects that properly scale for THF. Some Barbarian and Kensai damage-adds add more for THF.

A Bard doesn't meet any of those criteria, and therefore does significantly more DPS with TWF. However, it's not easy to get TWF on a Bard -- the investment in both DEX and feats is unkind. The result is a "Bard" with much higher than typical DPS, but this was expensive: Axesinger can't cast to save her life. (Well, actually that's the one thing she CAN do, but you know what I mean!!) This is why a DPS Bard (like Axesinger) is very different from a generalist meleeing Bard (typically a Human with THF, though not necessarily the feats) which is very different from a controller-caster Bard (typically a Drow with 20 CHA and squishy).

[Dricul]

What skills should I be taking at Rogue 1? I don't see Perform since I am guess I won't have it until I take a level of Bard. I maxed the others you listed in the first post. Should I use Spot or what? I have 12 points left after maxing UMD, balance, open lock, and jump. Thanks!

[Thanimal]

What skills should I be taking at Rogue 1? I don't see Perform since I am guess I won't have it until I take a level of Bard. I maxed the others you listed in the first post. Should I use Spot or what? I have 12 points left after maxing UMD, balance, open lock, and jump. Thanks!

The short answer is it doesn't make much difference. You'll have plenty of Perform if you keep it maxed on Bard levels, and then UMD, balance, open lock, and Jump are the only other skills that really matter here. In particular, with that 8 INT, you won't really be able to keep any *other* skills at high ranks, so for those "extra" points on the Rogue levels, you should be interested in skills where *some* ranks are meaningful. Examples include Haggle, Swim, Tumble (just 1 there is plenty), Heal, etc.

None of these are remotely game-breaking -- take whatever catches your eye. I'd probably rate Haggle as the best "dumping ground" for spare skill points. This is for sure not a Haggle Bard, but every point makes you a little richer in the long run.

Spot is not a good choice because long-term you'll never spot anything anyhow, so those ranks are completely wasted. (If you already started, don't even worry about it -- those other skills are pretty marginal anyhow.)

[GATORZ]

Ok so Lutetor has reached level 7 and I'm still lovin this build.......went halfway through tangleroot on leet last night b4 I had to log will finish it off today. I'm also gonna test out trap skills today and let you know how it goes. I currently have +7 search and disable items w/ +5 thieves tools rogue boost and focusing chant after I finish gonna put up lfm for gwlans on leet and try to do traps...will update how it goes. I don't foresee any problems though even with 8 int. I can get a +23 with the above gear and foxes cunning so we will see I'll post succcess or failure.

[GATORZ]

Solo run on leet tangleroot went well only 1 death and that was dur to me getting held while fascinating. The leet gwlans ...not so good my search was up to 20 all buffed up couldnt find em.... 1 more trick though I am gonna buy some find trap scrolls give it 1 more whack. I did however get my second level of fighter and could not believe the difference it made this build is great and wouldn't be suprised if 100 or more showed up on each server

[Thanimal]

I finally got a chance to run "the original" Axesinger last night. In all honesty, I've kind of parked her at 6 because my interest in the game is mainly in charting new build territory, and now that quite a few people are playing this build, I feel like I don't have to!

(I'm sure that sounds really twisted to anyone who isn't a hard-core builder, but those few of you who are know what I'm talking about.)

Anyhow, did a duo with a new Monk a guildie was making. I conclude:

- This build is AWESOME! I rock! It really is quite fun. I may have to somehow make more time for it.
- Splinterskull and StK are so freakin' nerfed it is downright sad. I already knew about Splinterskull, but this was my first time through Stk. We sprinted StK in under 20 minutes, and were never even remotely challenged. I think I cast Cure Moderate twice over the course of the three quests and we never stopped at a shrine. We ran the fire trap and (even though I don't have Evasion yet) we took miniscule damage. Nerf Fire is kinda tickly, it turns out. The Guardian was just horrible. We used no buffs, no preparation, no Wizard, no organization or tactics. Heck, we didn't even get there at the same time, so my partner started in solo against him. Thanks to a healing curse he laid on him, we both GAINED life over the course of the "fight."

Sheesh. This dumbing down seems awfully extreme. I remember when this game was sometimes a challenge!!

[GATORZ]

I've tried casting find trap scrolls and the boxes still elude me in gwlans, so in my experience w/ this build I've found you can be a trapmonkey w/ right gear on most quests and if no rogue on elite just run through them w/ your evasion zeg ahead kill it all and when the party catches up ask them where the he double hockey sticks they were....lmao Once again ty for the build throughly(sp) enjoying it +500 million rep fer u

[Thanimal]

I've tried casting find trap scrolls and the boxes still elude me in gwlans, so in my experience w/ this build I've found you can be a trapmonkey w/ right gear on most quests and if no rogue on elite just run through them w/ your evasion zeg ahead kill it all and when the party catches up ask them where the he double hockey sticks they were....lmao Once again ty for the build throughly(sp) enjoying it +500 million rep fer u

Honestly I'm impressed you can get ANY traps. I really don't think that will continue into higher levels, but Who Knows!? My plan has been to run them unless somebody insists on taking them down .

[wonderwyrm]

how would this look as a 32pt build?

[Thanimal]

how would this look as a 32pt build?

Answered in OP.

(I know it's long and frankly a bit boring, so I'm in no way faulting you for asking. But it's there if you look hard enough.)

[wonderwyrm]

yea its absurdly long, i might have missed it though:P

[Shanawa]

I am starting fresh on a new server and don't plan on having access to tomes. Is this still a viable build?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Axeldor 
Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 3 Rogue \ 15 Bard) 
Hit Points: 200
Spell Points: 488 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         12                    13
Intelligence          8                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             12                    14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               7                    31
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         1                     1
Diplomacy             1                     2
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                     8
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                  3                     4
Intimidate            1                     2
Jump                  7                    28
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         3                     4
Open Lock             7                    16
Perform               n/a                  25
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  7                     9
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      5                    25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Haggle (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 3 (Bard)
Skill: Perform (+5)
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will
Spell (1): Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I


Level 4 (Bard)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Perform (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Spell (1): Expeditious Retreat
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I


Level 5 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (1): Focusing Chant
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I


Level 6 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Spell (2): Cure Moderate Wounds
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Skill: Open Lock (+6)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 9 (Bard)
Skill: Perform (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Spell (1): Remove Fear
Spell (2): Heroism
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II


Level 10 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I


Level 11 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (2): Rage
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (3): Displacement
Enhancement: Bard Charisma II


Level 12 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Spell (3): Cure Serious Wounds
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II


Level 13 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II


Level 14 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (3): Remove Curse
Spell (4): Freedom of Movement
Spell (4): Dimension Door
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III


Level 15 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Spell (4): Cure Critical Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III


Level 17 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Spell (4): Break Enchantment
Spell (5): Greater Heroism
Spell (5): Mass Cure Light Wounds
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song III


Level 18 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (5): Greater Dispel Magic
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III


Level 19 (Bard)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Haggle (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music II
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery I


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+2)
Skill: Perform (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III

[Thanimal]

As indicated (hidden in the attributes math) in the OP, two Tomes are required to follow this build plan exactly:

+1 DEX for iTWF and gTWF. This is absolutely not optional. There is no point to sacrifice being a top-notch Bard for a lot more DPS unless you actually GET that extra DPS. I see you've addressed that by bumping DEX once. That's acceptable, I suppose, but clearly suboptimal and pretty painful to fix (unfixable until respecs come).

+1 CHA for Force of Personality. This is somewhat optional, although personally it would bug the heck out of me not to have it. At least one respected builder, however, claims FoP is complete junk in end-game.

Keep in mind +1 Tomes can be purchased at the DDO store.

[Shanawa]

That works for me. Being that it will be a 28 pt build I figured I would save tomes for a 32pt anyways.

[ssg2wo]

I made a 32 point build with this model. I added the extra 4 points into intelligence. I know everyone else said CON, but I wanted someone to be effective as a trap monkey if need be.

It took a few levels for me to catch up my perform, but after that I had extra skill points during my bard level-ups to add to disable and search. My open lock is good for quests above my level. With heroism and a wand of fox cunning / cat's grace I can open the traps.

Along with that, I'm beating every monster in game. Every once in a while I'll take a wicked crit that makes me back off, but for the most part I can take a wave and then heal.

I'm only lvl 6 right now, and I hear it gets fun at 11, but I'm having a blast with this now. Not my first bard, but my first bard that can hold his own in combat.

[wonderwyrm]

ill try that extra points in int thing, seems like a good idea:P

[Thanimal]

ill try that extra points in int thing, seems like a good idea:P

I don't see that as a good idea, although obviously it wouldn't "ruin" the build.

The problem is that even with a 12 INT, you're talking about 7 skill points per level. Full ranks of Perform and UMD are mandatory, so even if you forego Jump and Balance [dubious choice for a meleer with poor AC but who can self-heal], you still can only manage to keep full ranks in Search and Disable, and 1/2 in OL. No chance for Spot, so you better know where all the traps are.

If you have the chance to have a lot more hit points AND better Fort saves, I think that hugely trumps having sorta-usable trap skills. Something to keep in mind that HP in this game -- and even more so on this build -- become much MORE valuable at higher levels, where your AC falls further behind the curve and some guys start to have ridiculous one-shot attacks. I think you'll find that most folks who raid a lot will pretty much shout "Put the points in CON!" (It was from them that I got the advice about the 32-point build. I don't have 32-point builds and don't raid much. I spend my time optimizing stuff...)

Naturally, if you disagree, then build it however you want!

[Sparecash]

Nevermind I was reading some other posts and got my answer

[ssg2wo]

I've never worried about spot. I don't ever take it no matter the rogue build. Someone is going to find the trap, and there's not a lot of random traps in this game. So I just do open lock, disable and search. A lot of new toons are increasing their search, so you'll have a ranger finding traps for the rogue to open.

On a side note, the thing that really drew me to this build was the ease of it. I like rolling new guys and seeing how fun they are, but I don't like builds that rely on +2 tomes in every skill at lvl 1. This is a realistic build that someone new to the game can pick up and have fun with.

I have twinked the guy out as best I could, and there's a couple of tomes you need early, but +1 tomes are easier for people to get than +2. Thanks for a good build.

[Thanimal]

I've never worried about spot. I don't ever take it no matter the rogue build. Someone is going to find the trap, and there's not a lot of random traps in this game. So I just do open lock, disable and search. A lot of new toons are increasing their search, so you'll have a ranger finding traps for the rogue to open.

On a side note, the thing that really drew me to this build was the ease of it. I like rolling new guys and seeing how fun they are, but I don't like builds that rely on +2 tomes in every skill at lvl 1. This is a realistic build that someone new to the game can pick up and have fun with.

I have twinked the guy out as best I could, and there's a couple of tomes you need early, but +1 tomes are easier for people to get than +2. Thanks for a good build.

Makes sense. VERY glad you're enjoying it!