Pure Monk DPS build?

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Not sure if this idea has been given much thought yet, but have you considered taking a weapon proficiency feat for rapier, scimitar or khopesh and crafting up greensteel versions for endgame? Use your unarmed attacks for trash, etc. but switch to dual rapier for boss fights where transmuting and high crit range are much more important. I was going to roll up a test toon after mod nine hits to try it out. Not sure how much your "to hit" would suffer and if it would be worth the trade. I suppose in any raid boss fight where you'd use these weapons, you would probably have a bard around for the attack bonus.

(these numbers are based on level 20 monk)

monks are also proficient in handaxes and daggers. One feat could be spent on getting improved crit slash, and then crafting 2xgreensteel handaxes.

Being unbalanced, the monk would lose access to all their stances (e.g. wind stance) which would reduce their enhancement bonus to speed (15% at grandmaster) - also lose your flurry of blows BAB boost of 5, along with losing 4 DEX (from lack of wind stance). This would mean a total of -7 to attack, 15% slower dps and -2 to AC. In addition all Ki strike abilities would be lost but if you're a lazy monk who doesn't use these then you might not miss them.

To be honest, even with those disadvantages - this isn't as mad a plan as it sounds - on elite (high DR) content it might be worth a monk using 2xmineral II handaxes and using a feat on improved crit slash, as long as the monk can get their to-hit high enough. Alternatively if you can afford two feats, then going exotic proficiency khopesh might be even better. But the cost of two feats rather than using kamas and getting all the monk benefits, I'd have to do the math to see if it's really worth it.

Garth

[bobbryan2]

To be honest, even with those disadvantages - this isn't as mad a plan as it sounds - on elite (high DR) content it might be worth a monk using 2xmineral II handaxes and using a feat on improved crit slash, as long as the monk can get their to-hit high enough. Alternatively if you can afford two feats, then going exotic proficiency khopesh might be even better. But the cost of two feats rather than using kamas and getting all the monk benefits, I'd have to do the math to see if it's really worth it.

Garth

Well, I was totally with you up until you said it wasn't a mad plan.

Losing 5 to attack (not 7... this isn't a finesse build last I checked) may or may not be important enough to gain a slightly better crit multiplier... however..

the massive attack speed loss? There's no way. That's the only thing that actually makes a monk better than joe schmo swinging a weapon... and you're gonna take away the only guild ability they have?

[Xionanx]

Ok....I have read a few posts about monk DPS blowing etc.....that is fine...but I want to make the highest DPS monk build possibly anyway. I have two pure monks already (one bumped dex as much as possible and the other bumped wisdom). I also have a 2 monk/12 cleric (also bumped wisdom as much as possible and started with a base 10 strength).

I already started the monk as a human with the following stats:

Str 16 (10)
Dex 16 (10)
con 14 (06)
Int 08 (00)
wis 14 (06)
Cha 08 (00)

Adjust to:
STR 17
DEX 15 (Find a +2 Tome to qualify for ITWF and GTWF)
CON 13
INT 09
WIS 13
CHA 08
Why? +1 Tomes all around at level 1 makes you better then your original stats, +3 Tomes later down the road makes you a powerhouse. (slightly more efficient use of point buy)

I can reroll though and will eventually anyway because this character is on the beta server to test it out first This was just my current test run (probably just run through to lvl 12 quickly to see how it starts and get ITWF.

First level I took:

TWF
Power Attack
Dodge

Currently running in wind stance...which boosts my AC and attack speed.

Adding human bonuses to strength and all level up points into strength as well.

Don't seem to be having a problem hitting and damage is fairly decent as well.

AC amazingly is not that horrible at low lvl still (running with mage armor for now mainly...but with shield clickes as well in a pinch). Lower dex will make evasion less useful long term...but my saving throws should still be decent enough to make it useful end game.

Any suggestions/idea or changes you think would help make a higher dps monk (has to be a pure monk....no multiclassing).

I could have gone with 2 more strength to start but it didn't seem worth the sacrifice. Admitingly with a +3 tome (I don't have one) I could start with a 14 dex...drop con to 12...and start with an 18 strength instead of a 16....but that seems pretty extreme...and requires something I don't currently have to be used in order to get ITWF and GTWF (all for just +1 more damage and AB).

Human versatilities damage bonus will also be nice especially in combo with Wind stances bonus attack speed. Even at my current level I have 1d8+14 damage per strike (3 attacks every 2 swings). Average damage per attack is 18....so 27 average damage per attack (and I attack faster then normal due to wind stance). I went with pure +3 handwraps right now to get the largest AB boost (to compensate for power attack).

Once I get GTWF though.....and a decent strength (16+5+6+2+3+2+2=36 without madstones) damage should increase significantly.

I dont follow your numbers there:
16 Base
+5 Im' assuming from levels to 20?
+6 From Item?
+2 From Tome maybe?
+3 From Exceptional Stat Item?
+2 from mysterious unknown source (perhaps human stat increase? limited to +1 though)
+2 from yet another mysterious unknown source

By my math you would be at 33 (perhaps 34 with a +3 Tome) Please clarify the bonus's you list there as you have gotten me curious

Anyway what else should I do to pump damage if anything?

Your pretty much on the right track with going for MAX STR to get the most DPS from your monk. I personally would have gone WF for the extra immunities over other races, not to mention its EASY to get +9 Armor bonus on a WF monk(2 Body + 7 Dragon Touched Docent) leaving your "bracer" slot free for other uses.

On the merits of whether to Power Attack or not... Ahem... I like math, I use math a lot to "prove" things.. so what your about to see may come as a slap in the face to all those power attack zealots out there.. Or, it could simply confirm what a lot of people already know.

Level 16 and 20 Monk DPS with and without Power Attack

As you can clearly see, when Fighting monsters with AC less then 32, power attack is the way to go. When fighting monsters with AC greater then 32 its better to not use power attack. Since the largest majority of end game content has you fighting monsters with an AC of 35 or better, it might be wise to NOT invest in the power attack feat. Note that reducing your BaB reduces the AC that power attack is effective as well, so at level 16 (16 BaB) its actually better to NOT USE power attack when fighting monsters with AC 30 or better, and lets face it almost 90% of the monsters in the game have an AC of 30 or better! What I'm trying to get across to you is, yes your damage numbers when you hit will be bigger, but your overall DPS actually drops when using power attack.

[bandyman1]

I dont follow your numbers there:
16 Base
+5 Im' assuming from levels to 20?
+6 From Item?
+2 From Tome maybe?
+3 From Exceptional Stat Item?
+2 from mysterious unknown source (perhaps human stat increase? limited to +1 though)
+2 from yet another mysterious unknown source

I'm guessing one of those +2s is from rage, and the other's most likely madstone. But still, it'd be nice to see the OP confirm.

[rimble]

As you can clearly see, when Fighting monsters with AC less then 32, power attack is the way to go. When fighting monsters with AC greater then 32 its better to not use power attack. Since the largest majority of end game content has you fighting monsters with an AC of 35 or better, it might be wise to NOT invest in the power attack feat. Note that reducing your BaB reduces the AC that power attack is effective as well, so at level 16 (16 BaB) its actually better to NOT USE power attack when fighting monsters with AC 30 or better, and lets face it almost 90% of the monsters in the game have an AC of 30 or better! What I'm trying to get across to you is, yes your damage numbers when you hit will be bigger, but your overall DPS actually drops when using power attack.

You're using that tool really really wrong. It was made before TWF with Handwraps was in the game, it doesn't account for the nuances with that, such as no TWF Hit penalty, and full Strength damage to offhand.

Looking at absolute base damage isn't right either. It's not 2d8, it's most likely 2d8+5 (if you're using +5 Handwraps), and possibly more if you've got a good Greater Bane on.

This also doesn't do anything to account for Stunned or Unbalanced mobs...most things are easy to Unbalance (or I'm just doing normal flanking), and then I'm like +9 ToHit and +16 Damage (Halfling w/ Tharne's Goggles)...and the mob is either -2 AC for Unbalanced or there's an additional +2 Hit for normal flanking.

You didn't account for any common buffs, not even a regular Heroism potion, though more realistically Greater Heroism and/or Bard songs, and almost certainly Haste.

Certainly you need to toggle your Power Attack as appropriate to the situation. I can tell you as a Level 16 Halfling Strength-based Monk (in Wind stance) I have it on 95% of the time, and don't suffer excessive misses.

The basic conclusion (after a certain AC threshhold, Power Attack lowers your DPS) is absolutely correct, but the tipping point, in practice, is much higher than 32 AC.

[Xionanx]

You're using that tool really really wrong. It was made before TWF with Handwraps was in the game, it doesn't account for the nuances with that, such as no TWF Hit penalty, and full Strength damage to offhand.

Looking at absolute base damage isn't right either. It's not 2d8, it's most likely 2d8+5 (if you're using +5 Handwraps), and possibly more if you've got a good Greater Bane on.

This also doesn't do anything to account for Stunned or Unbalanced mobs...most things are easy to Unbalance (or I'm just doing normal flanking), and then I'm like +9 ToHit and +16 Damage (Halfling w/ Tharne's Goggles)...and the mob is either -2 AC for Unbalanced or there's an additional +2 Hit for normal flanking.

You didn't account for any common buffs, not even a regular Heroism potion, though more realistically Greater Heroism and/or Bard songs, and almost certainly Haste.

Certainly you need to toggle your Power Attack as appropriate to the situation. I can tell you as a Level 16 Halfling Strength-based Monk (in Wind stance) I have it on 95% of the time, and don't suffer excessive misses.

The basic conclusion (after a certain AC threshhold, Power Attack lowers your DPS) is absolutely correct, but the tipping point, in practice, is much higher than 32 AC.

I can agree with some of that, however I dont think I'm using the tool "really really wrong". Its easy to make the adjustments for the things you mentioned just by adding in those numbers yourself on the tool. And while it wont give an "exact" account of the DPS of a monk, it still gives a correct accounting of the DPS curve. The only real difference would be the DPS numbers would be higher because of offhand damage and higher attack rate. However if you really want to see a more accurate look, then take the chart I created and add +5 damage to the offhand weapon to cover the Full STR bonus monks get to offhand. As far as the TWF chain and swings per minute, those are still accurate and relevant to a monk so you dont need to adjust that.
As far as "outside factors" such as being stunned, unbalanced, tripped, held, commanded, stat damaged, using banes, etc.... Whether you use power attack or not in those situations is a non issue as you get the benefits with and without power attack.. In other words they enhance the base equally on both sides of the issue and would only serve to confuse the issue of comparing base damage with and without power attack. (crits are already factored into the chart btw)

I had factored in a 30 STR (which is reasonably obtainable), but its not hard to figure out that for each additional +1 to hit you obtain, the effective AC target for power attack goes up by +1. So +5 Handwraps would raise it by 5, Bard songs and other buffs would take it even higher.

Personally I have always been a fan of "Dont Miss" philosophy so I tend to go for as much +HIT as I can find. However I guess it couldn't hurt to apply some of that to damage when its not actually needed.

[rimble]

Personally I have always been a fan of "Dont Miss" philosophy so I tend to go for as much +HIT as I can find. However I guess it couldn't hurt to apply some of that to damage when its not actually needed.

Exactly. You can only miss on a 1 and do 10 damage. Or you can only miss on a 1 and do 15 damage. Sometimes, it's just free damage.

[bobbryan2]

I can agree with that. However its easy to make the adjustments for those things just by adding in those numbers yourself on the tool.

I had factored in a 30 STR (which is reasonably obtainable), but its not hard to figure out that for each additional +1 to hit you obtain, the effective AC target for power attack goes up by +1. So +5 Handwraps would raise it by 5, Bard songs and other buffs would take it even higher.

Personally I have always been a fan of "Dont Miss" philosophy so I tend to go for as much +HIT as I can find. However I guess it couldn't hurt to apply some of that to damage when its not actually needed.

So... when factoring in a 34 str, +5 handwraps, and full on Bard songs.... that number leaps to 48 ac pretty easily.

Not too many things have a 48 ac in this game. That's not even counting recitation, prayer, flanking, the +5 and +10 from attack chains, sneak attack (another +5 from tharnes), destruction (+4), haste...

Power attack is THE way to go.

[Xionanx]

I have a STR based WF monk I recently finished leveling to 16 (yesterday).

Stats:

STR 17 +1 Tome +4 Levels +6 Item = 28
DEX 15 +2 Tome +6 Item = 23
CON 13 +1 Tome +2 WF Enhancements +6 Item = 22
INT 8
WIS 15 +1 Tome +3 Monk Enhancements +6 Item = 25
CHA 6

So far at 16 I'm doing a LOT more damage then my Dex based monk. I still have a decent AC of 49 unbuffed, with a few raid buffs I hit 57. With a +2 Wis tome, and a few gear drops I can take it higher, but for a non AC build its not bad.

Damage is 2d8+14 while using +5 Handwraps making my base damage range 16-30 and crits 32-60; not counting energy type damage. A bloodstone helps bump up my crit damage a fair amount to 44-72.

HW's I prefer using: Maladroit, Paralyzing, Anything Burst, Anything Weighted, Bane/Greater Bane's. Best combos' are Energy Burst of Bane or Energy Burst of Weighted. (this is a reversal of my previous opinion that weighted isn't that usefull, I still find it doesn't go off often enough but its better then NOT having it)

Activiting Power Attack doesn't seem to effect my ability to hit enemies enough to warrant turning it off except in extreme cases. Fighting Sorjek in SoS with power attack on I was only missing on a 3 or lower. I have yet to finish shroud flagging the toon, but I'll check the numbers there once I do. Needless to say the extra 5 damage a hit adds up fast.

With some of the changes/fixes coming in mod9 I expect monks to start to shine a little more.

[wolfy42]

Sorry I didn't check into this thread for awhile, I moved on to testing another build before beta ended and then got distracted!!


Rage was one of the +2's, and exceptional was +3. I also have a +2 strength tome and don't have a +3 (thought I mentioned that). Since I don't know if +4's are going to be available or how hard they are to get, I only used a +2.

Let me see if I can break down the bonuses:

Once I get GTWF though.....and a decent strength (16+5+6+2+3+2+2=36 without madstones) damage should increase significantly.

16 base + 5 from levels + 6 from item + 2 from tome + 3 from exceptional + 2 from rage...oh I counted the last +2 the human bonus...I was told you could take both as the same stat....but now I know better. You could snag a +3 tome eventually and +1 strength enhancement from human and reach the same number though.

As far as power attack being baaaad...well as human I can boost my AB or damage.....both have the same effect of adding 5 damage....but if I am already hitting 100% of the time...then the damage boost is better in combo with power attack.

Also at 20 you have 20 base BAB, + 5 from handwraps, + 13 from strength (without mad's) + 1 from weapon focus, +1 from haste, +2 from WoTS (or more with GH of course..but this is self buffed only). So already you have a base 42 AB.....-5 from power attack means you still hit 38 AC monsters on a 2 or higher...without using human attack boost. If your fighting a high AC monsters you can pump that up 5 points with human attack boost to make you instantly hit a 43 ac monster on a 2 or higher!

And again thats not including anything you can put on yourself....bard songs, greater heroism or at low lvls the insight bonus from googles and set bonus (+3 more AB)....all can help boost you up a higher easily.

I certainly agree that hitting more often is more important that boosting damage a tiny be (10 more per attack with GTWF), but I think even self buffed you'll be able to hit most enemies. With madstones factored in (might as well since they will be) you can hit a 39 ac monster on a 2 or better non-stop. You can buff that up to a 44 AC monster multiple times as needed as well so you don't have to drop your power attack. What is more you can use the damage boost instead to boost your damage another 10 points per attack if your already hitting 95% of the time (which is most of the game since not that many monsters have higher then 39 AC).

More importantly, it is highly likely that vs those monsters that do have over 39 ac you will have at least GH going (+2 more to hit) meaning you auto hit 41 ac monsters without your boost...and 46 with. Vs the highest ac monsters you'll probably have a bard song going as well...which means you'll auto hit everything at that point with power attack on and can use your human versatility boosts for extra damage as well.

It should also be mentioned that for a huge portion of the early game you'll have way more then enough AB to hit everything anyway with PA going while only self buffing. The damage difference is significant as well...especially going with wind stance for the extra boost of speed. Between power attack and Human damage boost thats another 20 damage per attack....which is certainly enough to make a difference especially with hyper attack speeds!!

[toughguyjoe]

WF Monk with a q-staff, WF power attack, Cleave. Only way to go. If you're going to make a Monk for DPS, which is obviously not the best DPS class in the game my suggestion is make it as fun as possible.

Imho, the WF stick wielding room sweeping cleave guy is fun to play. I'll be leveling one to twenty once i buy new slots.

Watch out Argo!

[poonce]

Pure Monk and DPS can be mentioned in the same sentence?

[The_Ick]

I have a STR based WF monk I recently finished leveling to 16 (yesterday).

Stats:

STR 17 +1 Tome +4 Levels +6 Item = 28
DEX 15 +2 Tome +6 Item = 23
CON 13 +1 Tome +2 WF Enhancements +6 Item = 22
INT 8
WIS 15 +1 Tome +3 Monk Enhancements +6 Item = 25
CHA 6

So far at 16 I'm doing a LOT more damage then my Dex based monk. I still have a decent AC of 49 unbuffed, with a few raid buffs I hit 57. With a +2 Wis tome, and a few gear drops I can take it higher, but for a non AC build its not bad.

Damage is 2d8+14 while using +5 Handwraps making my base damage range 16-30 and crits 32-60; not counting energy type damage. A bloodstone helps bump up my crit damage a fair amount to 44-72.

HW's I prefer using: Maladroit, Paralyzing, Anything Burst, Anything Weighted, Bane/Greater Bane's. Best combos' are Energy Burst of Bane or Energy Burst of Weighted. (this is a reversal of my previous opinion that weighted isn't that usefull, I still find it doesn't go off often enough but its better then NOT having it)

Activiting Power Attack doesn't seem to effect my ability to hit enemies enough to warrant turning it off except in extreme cases. Fighting Sorjek in SoS with power attack on I was only missing on a 3 or lower. I have yet to finish shroud flagging the toon, but I'll check the numbers there once I do. Needless to say the extra 5 damage a hit adds up fast.

With some of the changes/fixes coming in mod9 I expect monks to start to shine a little more.

Think you need 18 for the top windstance enahancement. Are you planning on getting to that or just skipping it? Do you think you will miss it?

I am going ot build a simliar monk and i was trying to figure out where to start with a 15 or 18 dex.

Also trying to figure out Human or Halfling. I know people talk about WF, but i have leveled a WF barb and it was a SLOW level. The healing thing makes it tough and expensive.

I know Halflings get the Sneak attack damage, but that is an expensive enhancement line... Not sure if it is worth it?