Pure Monk DPS build?

[wolfy42]

Ok....I have read a few posts about monk DPS blowing etc.....that is fine...but I want to make the highest DPS monk build possibly anyway. I have two pure monks already (one bumped dex as much as possible and the other bumped wisdom). I also have a 2 monk/12 cleric (also bumped wisdom as much as possible and started with a base 10 strength).

I already started the monk as a human with the following stats:

Str 16 (10)
Dex 16 (10)
con 14 (06)
Int 08 (00)
wis 14 (06)
Cha 08 (00)

I can reroll though and will eventually anyway because this character is on the beta server to test it out first This was just my current test run (probably just run through to lvl 12 quickly to see how it starts and get ITWF.

First level I took:

TWF
Power Attack
Dodge

Currently running in wind stance...which boosts my AC and attack speed.

Adding human bonuses to strength and all level up points into strength as well.

Don't seem to be having a problem hitting and damage is fairly decent as well.

AC amazingly is not that horrible at low lvl still (running with mage armor for now mainly...but with shield clickes as well in a pinch). Lower dex will make evasion less useful long term...but my saving throws should still be decent enough to make it useful end game.

Any suggestions/idea or changes you think would help make a higher dps monk (has to be a pure monk....no multiclassing).

I could have gone with 2 more strength to start but it didn't seem worth the sacrifice. Admitingly with a +3 tome (I don't have one) I could start with a 14 dex...drop con to 12...and start with an 18 strength instead of a 16....but that seems pretty extreme...and requires something I don't currently have to be used in order to get ITWF and GTWF (all for just +1 more damage and AB).

Human versatilities damage bonus will also be nice especially in combo with Wind stances bonus attack speed. Even at my current level I have 1d8+14 damage per strike (3 attacks every 2 swings). Average damage per attack is 18....so 27 average damage per attack (and I attack faster then normal due to wind stance). I went with pure +3 handwraps right now to get the largest AB boost (to compensate for power attack).

Once I get GTWF though.....and a decent strength (16+5+6+2+3+2+2=36 without madstones) damage should increase significantly.

Anyway what else should I do to pump damage if anything?

[Samadhi]

Seems pretty good to me. There are three main beefs against monk DPS.

1) No transmuting on handwraps (sad but valid; kamas are pretty useless)

2) Poor crit range (an issue but not nearly as huge as it is often made out to be)

3) No Greensteal (mostly just a nuisance, since instead of crafting 1 awesome handwrap, you instead need a collection of high end Grtr bane's to do top notch damage).

My build is pretty similar to yours and I have no complaints on it; it definitely does higher DPS than most people believe.

The only other thing to master for max DPS is timing your special hits as you level. If you have ki left, you are doing it wrong.

[bobbryan2]

Seems pretty good to me. There are three main beefs against monk DPS.

1) No transmuting on handwraps (sad but valid; kamas are pretty useless)

2) Poor crit range (an issue but not nearly as huge as it is often made out to be)

3) No Greensteal (mostly just a nuisance, since instead of crafting 1 awesome handwrap, you instead need a collection of high end Grtr bane's to do top notch damage).

My build is pretty similar to yours and I have no complaints on it; it definitely does higher DPS than most people believe.

The only other thing to master for max DPS is timing your special hits as you level. If you have ki left, you are doing it wrong.

These are problems. But they are NOT the three main beefs with monk DPS. At best, they are secondary concerns.

The biggest concerns are the monk class themself. Even if monks used greensteel khopeshes or the like... they would still be behind in DPS. Having to use lower weapons is just being kicked while they're down.

[Angelus_dead]

Anyway what else should I do to pump damage if anything?

Change to a halfling or warforged.

[Tanka]

Change to a halfling or warforged.

x2

[Lithic]

Change to a halfling or warforged.

Don't go pure halfling though, you get all the necessary DPS enhancements by lvl 14. 6 levels of WF will round out your DPS with WF power attack 1 and 2.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Don't go pure halfling though, you get all the necessary DPS enhancements by lvl 14. 6 levels of WF will round out your DPS with WF power attack 1 and 2.

hmm



Garth

[Kiranselie]

hmm



Garth

+1 rep for Munchkin Card

[wolfy42]

Lol!

You guys rock.

Yeah I have the stance powers down...but for some reason I don't seem to be able to quick key them anymore. Works fine if I click on em with my mouse...but I used to be able to just press 1/2/1/3 to get off a quick walk on the sun combo for instance.

Now I have to use auto attack, target an enemy, and then manually click them.

Weird.

AC for low end content is still absolutely fine at this point as well. It looks like the build may only suffer AC wise for mid level content really compared to more defensive monks like my dex and wis builds. I actually have robes of invulnerability on so I don't even worry about the glancing blows at all (seems glancing blows even made by magic weapons don't pass /magic dr). AC is at 30 most of the time but can be pumped higher with potions if I need...which is plenty at this point considering how fast I kill everything.

[GlassCannon]

Don't go pure halfling though, you get all the necessary DPS enhancements by lvl 14. 6 levels of WF will round out your DPS with WF power attack 1 and 2.

Take 14 levels of Halfling and 6 of Warforged. You'll be fine and dandy after that.

[BlackRage]

I want to make the highest DPS monk build possibly anyway.

I could have gone with 2 more strength to start but it didn't seem worth the sacrifice.

Anyway what else should I do to pump damage if anything?

Pretty much answered your own question there...

[wolfy42]

Pretty much answered your own question there...

True, but the point is to have the highest DPS build that works well....I could eek out 1 more damage per attack with a higher starting strength, but would need a specific item (+3 tome) eventually to make it actually do more damage...otherwise the damage would drop significantly without ITWF and GTWF (not to mention it would be awhile before I got the +3 tome so ITWF would probably not happen).

So boosting strength 2 more points would probably reduce damage of the build at least for most of it's life.

[Tanka]

Do make note: +3 tomes are going to be easier to get with M9. No confirmation on if they're unbound on Elite runs through those quests, but I wouldn't discount it.

+4s will be in the new raid, presumably as random raid loot and on 20th completions.

[BlackRage]

Do make note: +3 tomes are going to be easier to get with M9. No confirmation on if they're unbound on Elite runs through those quests, but I wouldn't discount it.

I would - not going to happen.

[BlackRage]

True, but the point is to have the highest DPS build that works well...

Well, that is not what you said initially

Min/maxing requires a level of commitment to grinding - make it happen and you will do more damage in the end.

[redspecter23]

Not sure if this idea has been given much thought yet, but have you considered taking a weapon proficiency feat for rapier, scimitar or khopesh and crafting up greensteel versions for endgame? Use your unarmed attacks for trash, etc. but switch to dual rapier for boss fights where transmuting and high crit range are much more important. I was going to roll up a test toon after mod nine hits to try it out. Not sure how much your "to hit" would suffer and if it would be worth the trade. I suppose in any raid boss fight where you'd use these weapons, you would probably have a bard around for the attack bonus.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Not sure if this idea has been given much thought yet, but have you considered taking a weapon proficiency feat for rapier, scimitar or khopesh and crafting up greensteel versions for endgame? Use your unarmed attacks for trash, etc. but switch to dual rapier for boss fights where transmuting and high crit range are much more important. I was going to roll up a test toon after mod nine hits to try it out. Not sure how much your "to hit" would suffer and if it would be worth the trade. I suppose in any raid boss fight where you'd use these weapons, you would probably have a bard around for the attack bonus.

(these numbers are based on level 20 monk)

monks are also proficient in handaxes and daggers. One feat could be spent on getting improved crit slash, and then crafting 2xgreensteel handaxes.

Being unbalanced, the monk would lose access to all their stances (e.g. wind stance) which would reduce their enhancement bonus to speed (15% at grandmaster) - also lose your flurry of blows BAB boost of 5, along with losing 4 DEX (from lack of wind stance). This would mean a total of -7 to attack, 15% slower dps and -2 to AC. In addition all Ki strike abilities would be lost but if you're a lazy monk who doesn't use these then you might not miss them.

To be honest, even with those disadvantages - this isn't as mad a plan as it sounds - on elite (high DR) content it might be worth a monk using 2xmineral II handaxes and using a feat on improved crit slash, as long as the monk can get their to-hit high enough. Alternatively if you can afford two feats, then going exotic proficiency khopesh might be even better. But the cost of two feats rather than using kamas and getting all the monk benefits, I'd have to do the math to see if it's really worth it.

Garth

[Xionanx]

Ok....I have read a few posts about monk DPS blowing etc.....that is fine...but I want to make the highest DPS monk build possibly anyway. I have two pure monks already (one bumped dex as much as possible and the other bumped wisdom). I also have a 2 monk/12 cleric (also bumped wisdom as much as possible and started with a base 10 strength).

I already started the monk as a human with the following stats:

Str 16 (10)
Dex 16 (10)
con 14 (06)
Int 08 (00)
wis 14 (06)
Cha 08 (00)

Adjust to:
STR 17
DEX 15 (Find a +2 Tome to qualify for ITWF and GTWF)
CON 13
INT 09
WIS 13
CHA 08
Why? +1 Tomes all around at level 1 makes you better then your original stats, +3 Tomes later down the road makes you a powerhouse. (slightly more efficient use of point buy)

I can reroll though and will eventually anyway because this character is on the beta server to test it out first This was just my current test run (probably just run through to lvl 12 quickly to see how it starts and get ITWF.

First level I took:

TWF
Power Attack
Dodge

Currently running in wind stance...which boosts my AC and attack speed.

Adding human bonuses to strength and all level up points into strength as well.

Don't seem to be having a problem hitting and damage is fairly decent as well.

AC amazingly is not that horrible at low lvl still (running with mage armor for now mainly...but with shield clickes as well in a pinch). Lower dex will make evasion less useful long term...but my saving throws should still be decent enough to make it useful end game.

Any suggestions/idea or changes you think would help make a higher dps monk (has to be a pure monk....no multiclassing).

I could have gone with 2 more strength to start but it didn't seem worth the sacrifice. Admitingly with a +3 tome (I don't have one) I could start with a 14 dex...drop con to 12...and start with an 18 strength instead of a 16....but that seems pretty extreme...and requires something I don't currently have to be used in order to get ITWF and GTWF (all for just +1 more damage and AB).

Human versatilities damage bonus will also be nice especially in combo with Wind stances bonus attack speed. Even at my current level I have 1d8+14 damage per strike (3 attacks every 2 swings). Average damage per attack is 18....so 27 average damage per attack (and I attack faster then normal due to wind stance). I went with pure +3 handwraps right now to get the largest AB boost (to compensate for power attack).

Once I get GTWF though.....and a decent strength (16+5+6+2+3+2+2=36 without madstones) damage should increase significantly.

I dont follow your numbers there:
16 Base
+5 Im' assuming from levels to 20?
+6 From Item?
+2 From Tome maybe?
+3 From Exceptional Stat Item?
+2 from mysterious unknown source (perhaps human stat increase? limited to +1 though)
+2 from yet another mysterious unknown source

By my math you would be at 33 (perhaps 34 with a +3 Tome) Please clarify the bonus's you list there as you have gotten me curious

Anyway what else should I do to pump damage if anything?

Your pretty much on the right track with going for MAX STR to get the most DPS from your monk. I personally would have gone WF for the extra immunities over other races, not to mention its EASY to get +9 Armor bonus on a WF monk(2 Body + 7 Dragon Touched Docent) leaving your "bracer" slot free for other uses.

On the merits of whether to Power Attack or not... Ahem... I like math, I use math a lot to "prove" things.. so what your about to see may come as a slap in the face to all those power attack zealots out there.. Or, it could simply confirm what a lot of people already know.

Level 16 and 20 Monk DPS with and without Power Attack

As you can clearly see, when Fighting monsters with AC less then 32, power attack is the way to go. When fighting monsters with AC greater then 32 its better to not use power attack. Since the largest majority of end game content has you fighting monsters with an AC of 35 or better, it might be wise to NOT invest in the power attack feat. Note that reducing your BaB reduces the AC that power attack is effective as well, so at level 16 (16 BaB) its actually better to NOT USE power attack when fighting monsters with AC 30 or better, and lets face it almost 90% of the monsters in the game have an AC of 30 or better! What I'm trying to get across to you is, yes your damage numbers when you hit will be bigger, but your overall DPS actually drops when using power attack.

[bandyman1]

I dont follow your numbers there:
16 Base
+5 Im' assuming from levels to 20?
+6 From Item?
+2 From Tome maybe?
+3 From Exceptional Stat Item?
+2 from mysterious unknown source (perhaps human stat increase? limited to +1 though)
+2 from yet another mysterious unknown source

I'm guessing one of those +2s is from rage, and the other's most likely madstone. But still, it'd be nice to see the OP confirm.

[rimble]

As you can clearly see, when Fighting monsters with AC less then 32, power attack is the way to go. When fighting monsters with AC greater then 32 its better to not use power attack. Since the largest majority of end game content has you fighting monsters with an AC of 35 or better, it might be wise to NOT invest in the power attack feat. Note that reducing your BaB reduces the AC that power attack is effective as well, so at level 16 (16 BaB) its actually better to NOT USE power attack when fighting monsters with AC 30 or better, and lets face it almost 90% of the monsters in the game have an AC of 30 or better! What I'm trying to get across to you is, yes your damage numbers when you hit will be bigger, but your overall DPS actually drops when using power attack.

You're using that tool really really wrong. It was made before TWF with Handwraps was in the game, it doesn't account for the nuances with that, such as no TWF Hit penalty, and full Strength damage to offhand.

Looking at absolute base damage isn't right either. It's not 2d8, it's most likely 2d8+5 (if you're using +5 Handwraps), and possibly more if you've got a good Greater Bane on.

This also doesn't do anything to account for Stunned or Unbalanced mobs...most things are easy to Unbalance (or I'm just doing normal flanking), and then I'm like +9 ToHit and +16 Damage (Halfling w/ Tharne's Goggles)...and the mob is either -2 AC for Unbalanced or there's an additional +2 Hit for normal flanking.

You didn't account for any common buffs, not even a regular Heroism potion, though more realistically Greater Heroism and/or Bard songs, and almost certainly Haste.

Certainly you need to toggle your Power Attack as appropriate to the situation. I can tell you as a Level 16 Halfling Strength-based Monk (in Wind stance) I have it on 95% of the time, and don't suffer excessive misses.

The basic conclusion (after a certain AC threshhold, Power Attack lowers your DPS) is absolutely correct, but the tipping point, in practice, is much higher than 32 AC.