A Taoist monk?

**piggiecrdf2** · 08-06-2009, 02:18 PM

I had a madstone elite lfm up, opened to all classes, with a couple people already in group. Then a monk clicked the lfm and I prompted accepted his request. After he joined the group, I realized his name is Taichixxxxxx (won't give full name here). Here's the funny conversation:

Me: hm...how are monks gonna play tai chi? That's like telling Muslims read the Bible
Monk: im sorry i am able to play madstone lol, i mean i have paralazers and vorpals. i just got done with madstone elite 30 minutes ago
Me: lol. you didn't get what i said. you know what tai chi is, since your name is named after it?

(Party): Taichixxxxxx has left your party.

Guess that monk really doesn't know what his name means...

**JakLee7** · 08-06-2009, 04:53 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi_chuan
Tai chi chuan (traditional Chinese: 太極拳; simplified Chinese: 太极拳; pinyin: t�*ij�*quán; Wade-Giles: t'ai4 chi2 ch'üan2) is an internal Chinese martial art often practiced for health reasons. Tai chi is typically practiced for a variety of other personal reasons: its hard and soft martial art technique, demonstration competitions, health and longevity. Consequently, a multitude of training forms exist, both traditional and modern, which correspond to those aims. Some of tai chi chuan's training forms are well known to Westerners as the slow motion routines that groups of people practice together every morning in parks around the world, particularly in China.

The term t'ai chi ch'uan literally translates as "supreme ultimate fist", "boundless fist," "great extremes boxing", or simply "the ultimate" (note that 'chi' in this instance is the Wade-Giles of Pinyin j�*, not to be confused with the use of ch'i / qì in the sense of "life-force" or "energy")

**Kezn** · 08-06-2009, 07:58 PM

I don't get it... What does Tai Chi Chuan have to do with Taoism?

**Cedrica-the-Bard** · 08-06-2009, 08:14 PM

Yeah, I'm confused too.

From wiki:

Taoist Tai Chi is an exercise form of tai chi chuan which is taught in more than 25 countries by the non-profit Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada and associated national Taoist Tai Chi societies. It is a modified form of Yang style Tai Chi Chuan developed by Taoist monk Moy Lin-shin. Moy incorporated principles of Lok Hup Ba Fa and other internal arts to increase the health benefits of practising the form.

Now I'm no expert but it looks to me like Taoist and Tai Chi are related and those who follow this can be referred to as Monks. So, I don't understand what it is you said to him about "playing" tai chi.

Oh well...

**Emili** · 08-06-2009, 08:27 PM

'et Bean tá mearbhall air ... Bloody all I remember is "serve the pizza."

**markymarksta** · 08-06-2009, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Kezn

I don't get it... What does Tai Chi Chuan have to do with Taoism?

I don't consider myself an expert in much. However I have been training for 14 years in three forms of internal Kung fu and Tai Chi Chuan is one of them (Hsing i and Pa Qua is the other two). I am only going on the information my Master has told me and he teaches that Tai Chi Chuan was developed by Taoist monks.

You will be surprised by what other wonderful things the Taoist's also developed and left as a legacy.

**Aranticus** · 08-06-2009, 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by piggiecrdf2

I had a madstone elite lfm up, opened to all classes, with a couple people already in group. Then a monk clicked the lfm and I prompted accepted his request. After he joined the group, I realized his name is Taichixxxxxx (won't give full name here). Here's the funny conversation:

Me: hm...how are monks gonna play tai chi? That's like telling Muslims read the Bible
Monk: im sorry i am able to play madstone lol, i mean i have paralazers and vorpals. i just got done with madstone elite 30 minutes ago
Me: lol. you didn't get what i said. you know what tai chi is, since your name is named after it?

(Party): Taichixxxxxx has left your party.

Guess that monk really doesn't know what his name means...

taichi and taoism are 2 separate things. i'm guessing his taichi refers to the martial art form whereas taoism is a religion. many people consider the taoist "clergy" to be priests and monks to come from shaolin. this is probably where your confusion starts

taichi is reputed to be created by zhang san feng who combined the taoist breathing exercises with buddhist martial art which he learned when he was young. thus to attribute taichi entirely to taoism is incorrect

**piggiecrdf2** · 08-07-2009, 02:07 AM

First of all, I'd introduce myself a bit to avoid a lot challenges that might come in later without this. I'm a Chinese, living in Hong Kong SAR, a small but one of the most populated city with 95% population being Chinese.

Most non-Chinese would have a lot misunderstanding when Chinese originated words and phrases are translated into English. First of all, from a Chinese perspective, those who follow Taoism are never called "monks". You can call them "Dao Shi", a direct translation from Chinese, or rather loosely translated as "Taoist priests" most of the time. "Monks" are more strictly directed to Buddhist followers or similar type of religious followers.

A lot non-Chinese (A Chinese here refers to someone who speaks Chinese and knows Chinese history well here, an American who's grown up in a Chinese family in China might qualify for this, but not a lot American born Chinese running around out there) got a simple word translation from Chinese to English and always take that word as full and correct. Give you a simple example; everyone heard that Chinese got "dragons", right? But do you guys know the way most Western people understand "dragons" are totally different from the "dragon" Chinese have in mind? They're two different creatures. The Chinese community always has a petition to properly translate the "Chinese dragon" to "Long", because "Long" and "dragon" are two totally different things. This is like when you guys see a man walking around and he looks like a monkey, then you start to think that's a new type of monkey.

To conclude this, "Long" is different from "dragon" as much as "Dao Shi" is different from "monk". No matter how you guys search through the internet filled with English words or a few Chinese characters doesn't make this right, because the whole thing started off false translation. Maybe that was because the English speaking people are too proud of themselves and never tried to understand other cultures. Though I do notice there’s a trend of more Chinese words translated into English with the best effort of expressing the original meanings recently. Some universities even have new courses called “Guanxi”, commonly translated as “connections” and “relationships” back then.

Back to the topic of Taoism and Tai Chi. Taoism has been there for a long time, at least longer before Buddhism, Christian and a lot other religions. Zhang San Feng, a known figure who's referred to the person that developed the Tai Chi martial arts theory was a Taoist Dao Shi. From the novels, it's said that he was in Shaolin temple when he was little and later dug into the Taoist theories and developed the Tai Chi martial arts, including "Quan" and sword. Please be noted, the Tai Chi martial arts are different from the Shaolin temple martial arts, the theories and all that are different. Zhang San Feng “was” a monk at one time, but for the rest of his life, he’s a Taoist and that’s when his well-known martial arts were developed. All his students were supposed to be Taoist who attained the Tai Chi martial art skills. In the later series of the novel, it’s described that a deep understanding and following of Taoist believes favor the Tai Chi martial arts.

I don’t want to get too deep into this subject, or have links up full of Chinese characters, as it’ll be rather hard to explain something originated from Chinese in English. I tried to put it simple and explained the way most can understand. If any of you is really interested deep in “Long” & “dragon”, “Dao Shi” & “monk”, as well as how “Tai Chi” related to “Taoism”, I’m glad to share with you. Just remember one thing, a lot stuff you’re told are not correct, especially when it’s from another culture.

**piggiecrdf2** · 08-07-2009, 02:10 AM

If you read my quotes of original conversation with that monk, you'd understand more why I'd post this. He really didn't understand what his name meant as I talked to him about Tai Chi. I bet he started to think that I was questioning his ability to do the quest...lol

**Aranticus** · 08-07-2009, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by piggiecrdf2

If you read my quotes of original conversation with that monk, you'd understand more why I'd post this. He really didn't understand what his name meant as I talked to him about Tai Chi. I bet he started to think that I was questioning his ability to do the quest...lol

there are much better ways to correct a person's misunderstanding of a culture rather than the confrontational approach you adopted. i can see how he got the wrong meaning since many people doubt monk abilities

**Jakuren** · 08-07-2009, 08:26 AM

oh i don't think you should take his words as confrontational, i think he was making a joke. as he said, it was a mix up of cultures, saying his monk was taoist. i thought it quite entertaining, thanks for the lesson also.

**Draccus** · 08-07-2009, 08:27 AM

So you're OK with trolls and dwarves and invisibility and fireballs being summoned from thin air. You've got no problem immersing yourself in a game where dragons fight giants, where warforged live with dark elves, where people teleport around in the blink of an eye, and dying simply means reappearing at the last tavern you visited.

But the fact that someone uses opposing Chinese cultures in their character's name is worth calling him out in teh game and posting it on a message board?

/boggle

**piggiecrdf2** · 08-07-2009, 10:48 AM

My words weren't meant to be confrontational, and indeed the whole conversation had nothing to do with it. I was simply out of curiosity why he took that name and felt kinda funny, so I asked. He answered something totally not relevant to my question, I tried to rephrase my question, and asked more specifically to avoid misunderstanding. He left promptly. Aranticus, you're the one taking confrontation approach to my words. That's probably why you think I was trying to "correct a person's misunderstanding of a culture". I did not think of this until I put up the post and you guys asked about it.

For Draccus, I didn't consider this as "calling him out in teh game and posting it on a message board" as he "uses opposing Chinese cultures in their character's name". That's your perception. I shared a story that I thought funny here, which followed by an long educational post when people asked. So the long-lived post of Funniest DDO player quotes (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189554), which contained even more evil conversations, was accepted, but not this little quote sharing. That's biased. Maybe I should rename my title as "funny quote"...

**Aranticus** · 08-07-2009, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by piggiecrdf2

My words weren't meant to be confrontational, and indeed the whole conversation had nothing to do with it. I was simply out of curiosity why he took that name and felt kinda funny, so I asked. He answered something totally not relevant to my question, I tried to rephrase my question, and asked more specifically to avoid misunderstanding. He left promptly. Aranticus, you're the one taking confrontation approach to my words. That's probably why you think I was trying to "correct a person's misunderstanding of a culture". I did not think of this until I put up the post and you guys asked about it.

For Draccus, I didn't consider this as "calling him out in teh game and posting it on a message board" as he "uses opposing Chinese cultures in their character's name". That's your perception. I shared a story that I thought funny here, which followed by an long educational post when people asked. So the long-lived post of Funniest DDO player quotes (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=189554), which contained even more evil conversations, was accepted, but not this little quote sharing. That's biased. Maybe I should rename my title as "funny quote"...

actually the way i see it is that you were trying to make fun of his ignorance on the topic. communication is not as simple as just typing words and that others will be able to understand. it involves other elements such as tone of voice, expression and other body language. your reply to me just said it all. i wasnt being confrontational and you said i was. could the same thing have happened in your conversation with the taichi guy?

i'm a chinese too and i'm very proud of it. however, i do not go about trying to poke fun at people who do not understand my culture. coming in here and acting so high and mighty about chinese culture will not help others understand chinese culture. furthermore, there are also minor mistakes in your 2nd post

Back to the topic of Taoism and Tai Chi. Taoism has been there for a long time, at least longer before Buddhism, Christian and a lot other religions.

this part is not exactly verified. most people attribute taoism to the writings of laozi of which no one could exactly determine the era he lived in. historical writings come up with 2 different times, 6th century BC and 4th century BC. if he lived in 6th century BC, then taoism existed longer than buddhism which started in 5th century BC. the important point here is laozi writings are not the start of taoism religion. taoism only began in the han dynasty, 200 BC.

furthermore in current context, taoism is not longer the taoism of old. over times, people have merge taoism with buddhism. one can see the elements of buddhism in taoist folklore. ie buddha, monkey god, etc.

Please be noted, the Tai Chi martial arts are different from the Shaolin temple martial arts, the theories and all that are different. Zhang San Feng “was” a monk at one time, but for the rest of his life, he’s a Taoist and that’s when his well-known martial arts were developed.

it is a well established fact, even in taoist and taichi circles that taichi while is based on taoist teaching have buddhist influences in the moves

there are much better ways to do "educate" others on our culture. try this

Lunar New Year Special

Little Jodie's Bash

**piggiecrdf2** · 08-08-2009, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Aranticus

actually the way i see it is that you were trying to make fun of his ignorance on the topic. communication is not as simple as just typing words and that others will be able to understand. it involves other elements such as tone of voice, expression and other body language. your reply to me just said it all. i wasnt being confrontational and you said i was. could the same thing have happened in your conversation with the taichi guy?

i'm a chinese too and i'm very proud of it. however, i do not go about trying to poke fun at people who do not understand my culture. coming in here and acting so high and mighty about chinese culture will not help others understand chinese culture.

The fact is that some other readers of this post didn't take it the way you did. As I've said before, it's your perception. Of course, you have every right to do that, as much as others considering your words being confrontational against me. Why not just relax and look at it this way. Someone doesn't know there's a trap (don't know the difference between Dao Shi and monk), run into it then die (use a rather taoist name on monk) and get laughed. Again, this is a post supposely just to share a funny story but not to start a flame war like this. If you have the need for it, we can do it over PMs.

furthermore, there are also minor mistakes in your 2nd post. this part is not exactly verified. most people attribute taoism to the writings of laozi of which no one could exactly determine the era he lived in. historical writings come up with 2 different times, 6th century BC and 4th century BC. if he lived in 6th century BC, then taoism existed longer than buddhism which started in 5th century BC. the important point here is laozi writings are not the start of taoism religion. taoism only began in the han dynasty, 200 BC.

furthermore in current context, taoism is not longer the taoism of old. over times, people have merge taoism with buddhism. one can see the elements of buddhism in taoist folklore. ie buddha, monkey god, etc.

it is a well established fact, even in taoist and taichi circles that taichi while is based on taoist teaching have buddhist influences in the moves

You have some facts being correct, but the most important points are totally wrong. As much as you've talked about Taoism here, you should know that part of the Taoist theory is to include everything, to absorb others. It's very true that Taoism has absorbed other cultures all that, which is part of Taoism. That's the main stream of Taoism developed long long ago, long before the birth time you mentioned of Lao Zi. 黃老道, Huang Lao Dao, the early start of Taoism, included two important persons, Huang Emporer and Lao Zi. Huang Emporer lived in Mysterious Periods of China. Even though we don't have an exact time of Huang Emporoer's presence, but it's estimated at least two to three thousand years before Christ. Taoism and Taoist theories were there long before the birth of Lao Zi. Taoism actually started and developed along with Chinese cilvilization.

It's well-known and obviousl that Tai Chi is fully based on Taoist teachings, so it should be put under the name of Dao Shi, even though it has absorbed Buddhist influence in the moves. Buddhism has altered a lot in terms of behavior after entering China. All those monks with Chinese cultural elementals, how do we call them? We call them "monks".

**Aranticus** · 08-08-2009, 09:35 PM

i could go on and on but have no wish of infractions so i'll jump out of the thread. note that i'm not against the purpose of the thread but rather your actions

**Angelus_dead** · 08-08-2009, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by piggiecrdf2

Why not just relax and look at it this way. Someone doesn't know there's a trap (don't know the difference between Dao Shi and monk), run into it then die (use a rather taoist name on monk) and get laughed.

Because you have provided exactly zero support as to why there's anything inappropriate with a DDO monk using "Tai Chi" in his name. Your position is based on the FALSE belief that a "monk" is attached to some certain religious tradition, when really that character class covers anyone with a strict devotion to unarmed martial arts.

The person who would be laughed at in the following exchange is you:

Originally Posted by piggiecrdf2

Me: hm...how are monks gonna play tai chi? That's like telling Muslims read the Bible
Monk: im sorry i am able to play madstone lol, i mean i have paralazers and vorpals. i just got done with madstone elite 30 minutes ago
Me: lol. you didn't get what i said. you know what tai chi is, since your name is named after it?

**Cedrica-the-Bard** · 08-08-2009, 10:09 PM

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Because you have provided exactly zero support as to why there's anything inappropriate with a DDO monk using "Tai Chi" in his name. Your position is based on the FALSE belief that a "monk" is attached to some certain religious tradition, when really that character class covers anyone with a strict devotion to unarmed martial arts.

The person who would be laughed at in the following exchange is you:

See, now that was actually my original thought as well... I guess I was right?

**darkrhavyn** · 08-09-2009, 08:47 AM

Not really about RL here, but IIRC in most of the DnD books Ive read, monks arent any more religious than the next guy....they are called monks because they devote themselves to the study of a particular philosophy....one based in fighting. ts flavored Since it seems that Tai Chi and Taoism have similar roots, they guys name for his character doesnt seem so bad.....but it may have been more that TaiChi was the only martial arts flavored name he could think of right then.

We call men who devote themselves to the study of a religion, particularly catholicism, monks in Western culture so its easy for us to assume that is the meaning of "monk" in DnD or in other cultures...it isnt necessarily the same.

Catholic monks could easily be called "aesthetics" or "hermits" at times....I have not seen a monk from the DnD books really treated in that fashion.....they always sturck me more as a high level martial arts practictioner...say a black belt in karate or judo, though I guess a Shoalin monk might be much the same as long as its the Carradine version from TV

(Note I know nothing about what a Shoalin monk truly is, just the portrayal on an old tv show, and I doubt they got very much right, tv usually doesnt

)

**piggiecrdf2** · 08-09-2009, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Because you have provided exactly zero support as to why there's anything inappropriate with a DDO monk using "Tai Chi" in his name. Your position is based on the FALSE belief that a "monk" is attached to some certain religious tradition, when really that character class covers anyone with a strict devotion to unarmed martial arts.

The person who would be laughed at in the following exchange is you:

So according to your understanding, a DnD monk really has nothing religious related. Let me point out something for you. Do you realize when you try to create a monk, your alightnment is locked in LAWFUL? You may think that being lawful doesn't have to be religious, but you have to admit that the lawful path leads to a strong belief for the monks themselves. Too bad that the believes of DnD monks don't fit in Tai Chi believes. They might be experts of some or a lot martial arts, but not Tai Chi. A Tai Chi master is True Neutral. Some even believe that the reason of lacking real Tai Chi masters nowadays is because of lacking true neutral persons. Do you read my first question on that monk? "How are monks gonna play Tai Chi?"

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