Figuring out Fighter AC

[Borror0]

I don't count situationals, like Favored Defense

Favored Defense is hardly situational in module 9. It'll protect you versus 905 of what you'll face.

DoS give a Paladin to catch up?

It has a few redeeming factors:

• +2 turn attempts
• +1 extra Lay on Hands
• +25% increased hate generation
• bonus to defensive aura
• Magic Circle
• Mass Shield of Faith
• Glorious Stand
• Divine Righteouness

Of course, the problem is that none of these truly is impressive.

Glorious Stand could have been quite good but it's too powerful for a short amount of time. To be more appealing, it should have a greater duration and reduced powers but that would go against the design goal of glorious Stand (ie short duration near invincibility) and would make of DoS a very back-loaded PrE.

Another thing that could have helped was Mass Shield of Faith, which saves an item, but my intimitank made Mineral II goggles which covers the +45 HP, Heavy Fortification and +5 Deflection all at once so there is no real item slot gain there.

The only possible advantage I see comes from Divine Righteousness, really.

While both Stalwart Defender and DoS gain +200% hate generation from defensive stance, paladins can gain hate generation thanks to Divine Righteousness, the DoS equipment set and DoS II which amounts to 287.5% hate generation for as long as we assume that positive bonus to hate generation apply the same as negative ones. That might be enough to grab aggro while not being crippled by the movement penalty from defensive stance.

That is a plus for the paladin if the movement penalty is a significant issue and the +4 AC is not a huge loss.

An interesting point about this is that, for a paladin in Defensive Stance to lose aggro, a character would have to deal 8.625 times more damage than the paladin which basically mean it is impossible for the paladin to ever lose aggro. That's something that all MMO developers want to avoid since allowing means that playing becomes very systematic.

Thus, I hope that my assumption is wrong and that it stacks differently.

Though, just an hypothetical situation underlines what I have been saying for a long time now: percentage-based aggro generating bonuses are short-sighted. Sooner or later, you'll hit a wall where tanks will be able to keep aggro all the time without any problem.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Interesting... that means that the 18 Pal / 2 Fighter (or 18 Pal / 2 Mnk or Rog for Evasion) Intimitank based on DoS might actually be a viable build for Intimitanking...

But does the loss of FAM hurt too much? DoS gives +3 MDB to Tower Shield, so +7 MDB on a MTS is usually good enough...but unless you go Dwarf, you cap at +3 MDB on Full Plate, +4 on MFP, and +5 for MBP (I guess +5/+6/+7 if you wear Daggertooth Belt)... but Dwarf with the -2 Cha will penalize the higher-level smite and Divine Righteousness... Grrr...

Something I will have to look at.

Because, on the surface, the Pally and the Fighter should come out close to each other in AC, especially if you assume the Pally Aura for the Fighter. The Pally probably evens out or comes out a point higher if you don't give the Fighter the Pally's aura... so it is all a wash

But Pally Saves are a LOT higher, plus LoH, Wands, and the other benefits of Paladin are nice bonuses... plus the CHA for UMD...

[RTN]

If you want a top end intimitank, you should really be human. The House D dragonmarks give you more intim than any other race and you won't lose any for size. If you drop AC a little as a result, that's really not a raid issue since you'll have healing. You can't make up the lost intim.

[Borror0]

But does the loss of FAM hurt too much?

If dwarf, that's a loss of 1-2 points of AC. Thanks to DoS and DAM, a MDB of 5 while wearing DT armor is easily possible and 6, too, although most likely too expensive.

Of course, you have to add that to the +3 AC that Stalwart Defender gives over DoS to have a true gap of 4-5 AC.

However,when looking at the difference between ACs, we have to ask ourselves how often will we really have an aura-bot in the party? It's a known fact that paladins are very tight on APs right now and KotC will make this even truer. I don't think that it'll be that common for a non-DoS paladin to have much Bulwark of good ranks. Maybe the first or second one, but not the upper two.

Thus, while it's obvious that a Stalwart Defender will be superior AC-wise to a Defender of Siberys, if judged in two different parties, the difference between the two builds is smaller. If the "improvement to defensive aura" translated to a +1 AC bonus, DoS and Stalwart Defender will be on, more or less, even footing.

I guess +5/+6/+7 if you wear Daggertooth Belt

That would be a mistake since the DoS set has a belt and give +2 AC.

The Pally probably evens out or comes out a point higher if you don't give the Fighter the Pally's aura... so it is all a wash

I somehow missed this sentence on my first read. Seems like you knew what I wrote above.

Oh well, I'll leave it up there for others to see.

[Yargore]

If you want a top end intimitank, you should really be human. The House D dragonmarks give you more intim than any other race and you won't lose any for size. If you drop AC a little as a result, that's really not a raid issue since you'll have healing. You can't make up the lost intim.

The lost intimi isn't really a problem if you're a fighter.
You'll have enough of it anyways, and it's not the only way to tank.

Dwarf can give up to +5 to all saves and higher AC.

Pure dwarf with TWF and khopesh is the way to go.

[rimble]

Pure dwarf with TWF and khopesh is the way to go.

Taking a Halfling splash would help your saves even more!

Sorry, those typos always crack me up...

I'm still kinda surprised by the utter lack of interest in the WF Mithral Body Evasion version.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Taking a Halfling splash would help your saves even more!

Sorry, those typos always crack me up...

But halfling takes -4 to Intimidate, which hurts... and -2 STR.

[Yargore]

Taking a Halfling splash would help your saves even more!

Sorry, those typos always crack me up...

Bah:P
Better now? : "Dwarven pure fighter with TWF and khopesh is the way to go."

[Yargore]

But halfling takes -4 to Intimidate, which hurts... and -2 STR.

They don't get better saves either, but I don't think that's what he meant.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Thanks to krud in one of my other threads for posting a format that inspired me to look at things and post build comparison a different way...

Ok, trying to look at Fighter 18 (Stalwart3) vs. Ranger 18/Mnk 2 (Tempest3)
Yes, I know it isn't quite a fair comparison as it is non-Evasion vs. Evasion and full Inimidate vs. non-full-Intimidate... but just looking at AC potential at the moment.

Fighter 18 ........................ Ranger 18 / Monk 2
__________________________________________________
10................Base............. 10
15 (DT Heavy).....Armor............ 8 (+8 AC Bracers)
9 (+5MTS).........Shield........... 4 (Tempest III)
7* ...............Dexterity........ 11*
- ................Wisdom........... 7** (Monk Wis Bonus)
5 ................Deflection....... 5 (+5 Protection Item)
5 ................Dodge............ 5 (Combat Expertise)
- ................Dodge............ 4 (Icy Raimnent)
3 ................Dodge............ 3 (Chattering Ring/DT)
2 (Chaosguarde)...Dodge............ 0
1 ................Dodge............ 1 (Dodge Feat)
- ................Dodge............ 1 (Two-Weapon Defense)
4 ................Insight.......... 4 (Green Steel)
3 (Stalwart III)..Misc............. -
- ................Misc............. 3*** (Favored Enemy)
2 ................Alchemical....... 1 (Alchemical Rituals)
- ................Centered......... 1 (Monk Centered Bonus)
__________________________________________________
66 ...............Solo BAC......... 68 (Solo Beholder Armor Class)
__________________________________________________
3 (Barkskin Pot)..Natural.......... 5 (Barkskin Spell)
1 (Haste).........Dodge............ 1 (Haste)
__________________________________________________
70 ...............Self-Buffed AC... 74
__________________________________________________
2 (Rng Barkskin)..Natural.......... -
5 ................Misc............. 5 (Paladin 15+ Aura)
4 ................Dodge............ 4 (Bard's Inspire Heroics)
2 ................Luck............. 2 (Recitation)
__________________________________________________
83 ...............Raid Party AC.... 85
__________________________________________________
1 ................Misc............. 1 (Paladin DoSIII Aura)
4 (Def Stance)....Dodge............ -
__________________________________________________
88 ...............Max Raid AC...... 86
__________________________________________________
5 (AC Boost)......Misc............. -
- ................Dodge............ 6 (Uncanny Dodge)
__________________________________________________
93 ...............Max 20 Sec AC.... 92



*Armor MDB: 1 (DT Heavy) + 2 (Stalwart III) + 2 (FAM) + 2 (DAM) = 7
*Shield MDB: 4 (+5 MTS) + 3 (Stalwart III) = 7
*Fighter Dex: 15 (Base) + 3 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)
*Ranger Dex: 17 (Base) + 3 (Tome) + 3 (Ranger) + 3 (Exceptional) + 6 (Item) = 32 (+11)

**Wisdom: 14 (Base) + 2 (Tome) + 2 (Exceptional) + 6 (Item) = 24 (+7)

***Given that Ranger 18 gets 4 Favored Enemies, it isn't hard to plan these so that it is almost always in effect

NOTE: I realize that I might be missing a small bonus or two, as I'm not completely familiar with the Mod9 Set Items. I did include some Exceptional +1 and +2 from the Rings.

What I find most interesting, is that properly equipped, and with the Mod9 Rings, the 2 builds end up VERY close to each other in AC... with the Ranger taking the BAC Lead, and the Fighter only leading with the Defensive Stance turned on. Now, I also understand that the Fighter has a *LOT* more hate generation potential and Intimidate.... but Intim isn't everything...

Now, I also need to add in the Racial variations, and what that does, as well as options for the final 2 levels on the fighter build.

[Mavakith]

sorry for mini-hijacking the post OP..
but wt starting stats am I looking for if I'm gonna play a pure Ftr WF variant of this?

I'm still quite new to ddo (2 months) so i wunt be making this toon as of now..
but certainly i hav my interest in a WF intimitank Stewart defender..

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

This was never intended to be a full out build... more of an exercise...
I mean, I guess with the Dex requirements, and CE... you just figure out the Tomes and work backwards.

Assume +2 Tomes for DEX & INT

STR:
DEX: 16 + 2 (Tome) + 6 (Item) = 24
CON:
INT: 11 + 2 (Tome) = 13
WIS:
CHA:

Then work out the rest.... say 16 STR, 14-16 CON, screw WIS, and maybe try to get CHA up to 10...?

[Aerendil]

That was my impression as well.

Allow me to add a fourth: Paladins gain a lot of their class Armor Class from Aura of Good, which they then share with the rest of the party.

I made a suggestion of giving Armor Mastery to paladins and clerics for twice the cost, over a year ago, but it never saw the day as you can see. I also had suggested the alternative to give Armor Mastery to everyone but restrict each tier per proficiency (first tier for light, second for medium and third for heavy).

The other option here would have been to add +1 to aura per DoS tier (instead of only on tier 3), to match the Fighter flat out +1 AC per tier.
Keeps them more or less even while solo, but the Fighter still wins out in a group situation when he/she can benefit from the Paladin aura.

Also - thanks for that comparative chart, Dworkin. Very useful, but also somewhat saddening to note just how easily a Ranger with monk splash can compare to Fighter AC. And they retain dps (via TWF) whereas the Fighter build was S&B :/ Oh well. Maybe one day they'll find a balance for that.

[Aerendil]

__________________________________________________
15 (DT Heavy).....Armor............ 8 (+8 AC Bracers)
9 (+5MTS).........Shield........... 4 (Tempest III)
7* ...............Dexterity........ 11*
- ................Wisdom........... 7** (Monk Wis Bonus)
- ................Dodge............ 4 (Icy Raiment)

One further comment - this part is quite saddening :/
All other things being assumed equal, the armour bonus alone here = 31 for the Fighter fully specced in sword and shield with armour mastery 3 and stalwart defender 3; whereas the Monk splash Ranger has 34, while losing absolutely nothing in terms of dps, and having no penalties to any skills due to wearing armour.

Surely this should be a red flag to the devs, no?

And heaven forbid some poor sod tries to dual wield as a Fighter - they'd lose about 5 more AC. And imagine if they didn't have DoS3 - they'd be even further behind!

Devs - give us a reason to wear armour!!!