Figuring out Fighter AC

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Alright, with Mod 9 coming, and given the recent trend in the game, I figure it's time to build myself a real Intimitank. So I've been doing some rough calculations, and looking that the Mod 9 PrE's, and loot, and I think I have a good start, but I want to throw it out for some ideas. I also recently hijacked a different thread on this board, so I figured I would separate it out.

WARNING: This is really rough, and early design stage... don't build anything off this yet!

So, if we start with the PrE's, we see that Stalwart Defender has some nice perks... take it to Stalwart Defender 3, and we get +3 AC, +3 MDB for Shields, +2 MDB for Armor, and a "Defensive Stance" for +4 AC (but the reports I have heard say you move so slow, that Tumble is the only way to move).

So if we start with Fighter 18, and go Dwarf to start, for DAM, and let's assume some +3 Tomes, and the loot we know about. I know we *should* get +4 tomes if not +5's by Level 20, but I haven't seen them confirmed. Also, this is going to assume a LOT of Raid loot, which just kinda has to happen for this build.

Level 18 Dwarf
18 Fighter

DEX: 16 (Base) + 3 (Tome) + 3 (Exceptional 1 & 2 from new Rings) + 6 (Item) = 28 (+9)

AC Calculation:
--------------------------
10 - Base
15 - DT Heavy Armor - MDB:1 + 2 (Stalwart 3) + 3 (DAM3) + 2 (FAM3) = 9
9 - +5 MTShield - MDB:4 + 3 (Stalwart 3) + 2 (FTSM) = 9
9 - DEX
3 - Stalwart Defender Bonus
4 - Insight (Green Steel)
5 - Protection +5
1 - Dodge Feat
3 - Chattering (Ring/DT Armor)
2 - Rituals
2 - Chaosguarde
5 - Combat Expertise
----------------------------------
68 Standing BAC (Beholder Armor Class)
----------------------------------
3 - Barkskin +3 Pot
1 - Haste
----------------------------------
72 Self-Buffed AC
----------------------------------
2 - Ranger's Barkskin
5 - Paladin 15+ Aura
4 - Bard AC Song
2 - Recitation
----------------------------------
85 "Raid Party" AC
----------------------------------
1 - Defender of Syberis Paladin Aura
4 - Defensive Stance
----------------------------------
90 "Max" AC


Different Race Options:
----------------------------------
Elf/Drow = -2 MDB = Net -2 AC, Lower CON
Halfling = -2 MBD, +1 Size = Net -1 AC, Size Penalty to Intimidate
Warforged =
-15 DT Heavy Armor, +8 Adamantine Body, +7 DT Docent, -3 MDB = Net -3 AC
-15 DT Heavy Armor, +5 Mithral Body, +7 DT Docent, +1 MDB = Net -2 AC
MDB Armor: 5 (Mithral Body) + 2 (Mithral Fluidity x2) + 1 (Stalwart) + 3 (FAM3) = 10
MDB Tower: 4 (MTS) + 3 (Stalwart) + 3 (FTSM3) = 10

So Dwarf still seems the best choice here, unless I am missing something on Warforged. Of course, for 10 Dex, you are up to 17 Starting and a +4 Tome, or other things that may gimp the rest of the build. I am comfortable with 16 Starting, but I think 17 Starting is really pushing the limits.


Ok, so then I thought, what would happen if I wanted this build to take Rogue 2 for Evasion and UMD at the end. So drop to Light Armor... hrmmm

In Light Armor for Evasion
----------------------------------
Dwarf
-15 - DT Heavy Armor
+10 - +5 Mithral Breastplate
+2 - DEX (18 Base + 3 Tome + 2 Levels + 3 Exceptional + 6 Item = 32 (+11) 11-9=2
MDB: 5 (Base) + 0 (Stalwart) + 3 DAM + 3 FAM = 11

Net -3 AC

Ok, that didn't work...
Let's try Elf/Drow, for higher Dex, and see where we get

Unarmored for Evasion
----------------------------------
-15 - DT Heavy Armor
-2 - Chaosguarde
+4 - Icy Raimnent
+8 - +8 Armor Bracers
+5 - Dex - 19 (Base) + 5 (Levels) + 3 (Tome) + 2 (Race) + 3 (Exceptional 1&2) + 6 (Item) = 38 (+14) 14-9=5

Net 0 AC, and gaining Evasion
Halfling gains +1 Size AC, so a Net +1 AC

... Interesting.

Now, going 18 Fighter / 1 Rogue / 1 Monk has an interesting option for Unarmored... no Evasion, but the Monk's Wisdom Bonus might come into play.


----------------------------------

Overall, not a bad start. But I want to know, what am I missing?
Yes, I need to look Ranger 18, with Tempest 3, to do a good comparison, and I will in another post.. have to run those numbers first.

[rimble]

So Dwarf still seems the best choice here, unless I am missing something on Warforged. Of course, for 10 Dex, you are up to 17 Starting and a +4 Tome, or other things that may gimp the rest of the build. I am comfortable with 16 Starting, but I think 17 Starting is really pushing the limits.


Ok, so then I thought, what would happen if I wanted this build to take Rogue 2 for Evasion and UMD at the end. So drop to Light Armor... hrmmm

Mithral Body is Light Armor, so you need 2 x Mithral Fluidity to get to +10 MDB. Don't think the PrE helps Light Armor any.

I'm not sure if I'm following your subtractions correctly...but don't forget to take off 2 AC for going down to a Heavy Shield from a Tower Shield if you want a Dex over 30...basically want to get to at least a 34 to make up for it.

Halfling has -4 Intimidate to worry about.

The Monk variant gets all goofed up if he needs to get out a shield and go into DR mode, don't think that's a great idea.

I think Dwarf is going to stay on top, but I'm all over -2 AC (but -3 Feats too, ugh...) to gain Evasion.

[Borror0]

RE:Heavy Armor
I don't agree that the 16 Dex and the 9 MDB are justifiable. Too much for too little.

PS: If you want to talk about this, you can bug me over IM any time.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

RE:Heavy Armor
I don't agree that the 16 Dex and the 9 MDB are justifiable. Too much for too little.

PS: If you want to talk about this, you can bug me over IM any time.

Bor, you are right that 16 Dex and 9 MDB are probably far too much of a starting stat investment as well as AP investment... but I wanted to play with the idea. Of course, the other option would be go all out with Dex, and add Weapon Finesse... but then you wouldn't hold aggro when Intimidate runs out (I know... but it was amusing to think about).

Just trying to stretch the realms of possiblity. I really need to run up the Ranger/Monk alternative (with either Fighter or Rogue to get the Intimidate full)...

Basically, I'm wanting to put together the specs on a Uber-AC Intimidate build, and trying to find a good way/reason to go mostly Fighter instead of Ranger/Monk. I know that in theory the Ranger/Monk has a higher AC potential (even though I keep believing in my heart that something is fundamentally WRONG with that). I dreamed for a moment that DoS Paladin would have a chance, but no. I want to roll a Fighter, I really do, but I am having a hard time justifying it, even with the new PrE's. Maybe if the WIS bonus is fixed to only work with Handwraps/Monk Weapons... but still, how/why should an unarmored, unshielded, TWF build out-AC the Heavy Armor/Tower Shield Fighter? What is wrong with the world?

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Mithral Body is Light Armor, so you need 2 x Mithral Fluidity to get to +10 MDB. Don't think the PrE helps Light Armor any.

Fixed

I'm not sure if I'm following your subtractions correctly...but don't forget to take off 2 AC for going down to a Heavy Shield from a Tower Shield if you want a Dex over 30...basically want to get to at least a 34 to make up for it.

Which is why I stopped at 30 Dex (+10)

Halfling has -4 Intimidate to worry about.

Which, while it hurts... I am starting to wonder if it really hurts that much

The Monk variant gets all goofed up if he needs to get out a shield and go into DR mode, don't think that's a great idea.

I haven't even tried to figure that one out... but I guess I need to. But then, keeping the aggro with Monk Weapons gets a bit tricky. And mostly, the one thing I hate about my Monk, is the Range of Monk Weapons vs. all the rest. I hate having to be THAT close!

I think Dwarf is going to stay on top, but I'm all over -2 AC (but -3 Feats too, ugh...) to gain Evasion.

I agree, Evasion is AMAZING for survivabilty. And it isn't -3 Feats, it is actually -1 Feat for Rogue 2 or Monk 2 for Evasion. Fighter gets 1 Bonus Feat every 2 Class Levels.

[Aranticus]

with 16 base dex, you better have twf feats for dps when not tanking. the loss of capstone is a very serious loss of dps

[Borror0]

Of course, the other option would be go all out with Dex, and add Weapon Finesse... but then you wouldn't hold aggro when Intimidate runs out

More importantly, you would hit like a wet noddle if Intimidate is not needed like the Shroud, a beholder or if there is two intimitanks in the party.

The strength of a fighter, and why it will be the best tank class in Module 9, is that it can grab TWF while being spec'd for S&B intimitanking.

I really need to run up the Ranger/Monk alternative (with either Fighter or Rogue to get the Intimidate full)...

If we assume Exploiter stats:
10 Base
+4 Shield (Tempest III)
+8 Armor
+1 Alchemical
+9 Dexterity
+8 Wisdom
+5 Protection
+7 Dodge (IR+CR)
+1 Centered
+1 Dodge feat
+1 Two Weapon Defense
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
+3 Favored Defense
67 unbuffed AC
+5 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
+2 Luck
75 self buffed AC
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Dodge
85 buffed

Ability score calculations:

• Dexterity: 15 base + 4 tome + 3 Ranger's Dexterity III + 6 item = 28 Dex
• Wisdom: 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 Exceptional Wisdom = 24 Wis

You can play with the ability scores and race if you'd like but human 15/14 was about were I liked it most.

By the way, the Tempest ring was not included in my calculations and may mess things up a bit.

I know that in theory the Ranger/Monk has a higher AC potential

First, let's make it clear that Dex-based ranger/monk is a very, very bad build with no DPS and no close to no capacity to grab aggro on raid bossses unless no one is beating on them. I think that, comes Module 9, S&B and Exploiter will be close to even on Armor Class.

Then, grazing hits will do the job. From my calculations, there will be a significant advantage for S&B if both build only get hit on 20s.

We also get the 6 DR/- from Stalwart/DoS which helps a quite a bit with grazing hits.

In that respect, I think that Str-based pure fighter will be the most solid intimitank build there is unless saves requirement are very high and make a big difference, in which case 18f/2p will be better. He will have 300% aggro generation, which the ranger/monk will not and that will make keeping aggro much easier for the fighter. The fighter will also have up to +10 to Intimidate from class abilities over the Explotier and higher Cha which will probably be at least +2 to Intimidate.

Oh, and then you've got the possibility for more intimidate from feats, too.

I dreamed for a moment that DoS Paladin would have a chance, but no.

You just changed your mind or you realized it would not work? I didn't play much with a DoS paladin yet.

Just enough to realize it won't be easy to put together.

[...] but still, how/why should an unarmored, unshielded, TWF build out-AC the Heavy Armor/Tower Shield Fighter? What is wrong with the world?

In before "Agile character dodge hits better!!!111"

[Borror0]

Which, while it hurts... I am starting to wonder if it really hurts that much

Current end game: If you want to intimitank raid boss, quite a lot.
Module 9: It depends on too many factors to answer so we,ll have to wait and see. Probably matters a lot, though.

But then, keeping the aggro with Monk Weapons gets a bit tricky.

Monk AC does not require you to wield monk weapons or remain centered.

with 16 base dex, you better have twf feats for dps when not tanking. the loss of capstone is a very serious loss of dps

If your intimitank does not have TWF, you're doing it wrong. The adaptability is just too much to consider passing on.

The only exception might be on a paladin. In that case, THF might be the preferable option. More on that whenever I get to play with DoS builds.

[Aranticus]

If your intimitank does not have TWF, you're doing it wrong. The adaptability is just too much to consider passing on.

The only exception might be on a paladin. In that case, THF might be the preferable option. More on that whenever I get to play with DoS builds.

lol tell that to riot

[ryingar]

... but still, how/why should an unarmored, unshielded, TWF build out-AC the Heavy Armor/Tower Shield Fighter? What is wrong with the world?

First I want to say that I really like this thread and the discussions within.


Think in the realm of DnD and the like, AC is representative of a toons ability to not take damage either through armor/shield to mitigate that damage or by deflecting/dodging the attack. So a toon that is highly armored won't take that much damage, like knights; and on the flip side a toon that is far more agile won't get hit, similar to a samurai. You get the idea.

[BoBoDaClown]

Current end game: If you want to intimitank raid boss, quite a lot.

I have a halfling tank, who will run very little of 'elite' raiding; just the normal. I was wondering if the -4 penalty to intimidate will be offset by the 300% threat production of stalwart defender. i.e. the intimidate is high enough for all the trash, and then single target bosses will be held by the increased threat, if not the intimidate.

Just wondering

[Borror0]

I was wondering if the -4 penalty to intimidate will be offset by the 300% threat production of stalwart defender.

I am thinking the same as you: probably the threat generation will be enough and Intimidate will be used for trash mobs.

However, there are a few situations that could change everything:

• Intimidate+Shield Blocking being the optimal tactics at times
• Running into situations where you lose aggro often and then need to regrab aggro quickly
• Unusual aggro patterns (such as aggro clearing)
• 300% hate generation not being enough for some odd reason
• Needing to tank two (or more) mobs with high DCs at once

[Monkey_Archer]

You just changed your mind or you realized it would not work? I didn't play much with a DoS paladin yet.

My Drow TWF dps pali (originally planned to go KOTC) just pulled a +3 int tome so I've been playing around with changing him to a DOS hatetank/trash intim.

IMO, DOS got the shaft as far as max AC tanking is concerned

3 reasons:
1) They dont get the +3 AC that Stalwart defender gets
2) They cant get as high MDB as Fighters
3) They loose a further 2 ac by not being able to wear the daggertooth belt and DOS set (which includes a belt... I wonder if they did this on purpose or it was just an oversight )

On the bright side, the self buffed/beholder AC is the same as a fighter though...

10 Base
15 DT (1 Dex +3 DAM + 2 DOS = 6)
9 MTshield (4 + 3 DOS = 7)
6 Dex
4 Insight
5 Prot
3 Chattering
2 Rituals
2 CG
5 CE
6 Aura
2 DOS set
1 Dodge (if you can fit it in )
---
70 unbuffed
3 bark pot
1 haste
---
74 self buffed
4 ac song
2 ranger
2 recitation
---
82 raid buffed
4 stance
---
86 stance

[Borror0]

IMO, DOS got the shaft as far as max AC tanking is concerned

That was my impression as well.

3 reasons:
1) They dont get the +3 AC that Stalwart defender gets
2) They cant get as high MDB as Fighters
3) They loose a further 2 ac by not being able to wear the daggertooth belt and DOS set (which includes a belt... I wonder if they did this on purpose or it was just an oversight )

Allow me to add a fourth: Paladins gain a lot of their class Armor Class from Aura of Good, which they then share with the rest of the party.

2) They cant get as high MDB as Fighters

I made a suggestion of giving Armor Mastery to paladins and clerics for twice the cost, over a year ago, but it never saw the day as you can see. I also had suggested the alternative to give Armor Mastery to everyone but restrict each tier per proficiency (first tier for light, second for medium and third for heavy).

[Aranticus]

First I want to say that I really like this thread and the discussions within.


Think in the realm of DnD and the like, AC is representative of a toons ability to not take damage either through armor/shield to mitigate that damage or by deflecting/dodging the attack. So a toon that is highly armored won't take that much damage, like knights; and on the flip side a toon that is far more agile won't get hit, similar to a samurai. You get the idea.

actually, the samurai is the most armored class in the oriental adventures. the kensai is the unarmored one

[rimble]

I agree, Evasion is AMAZING for survivabilty. And it isn't -3 Feats, it is actually -1 Feat for Rogue 2 or Monk 2 for Evasion. Fighter gets 1 Bonus Feat every 2 Class Levels.

Oh right, I had forgotten to account for that so really it's four Feats for 2 Rogue (or two Feats for 2 Monk since they get two back):
-1 Fighter Feat (compared to pure Fighter)
-1 Mithral Body
-2 Mithral Fluidity x 2

However, he'd not have to pay for DAM III, but he'd also have to squeeze in more Dex than versions that can stop at 26 or 28. The Rogue version makes it a tiny bit easier to get that Dex up with their +1 Enh.

Granted, Fighter is the one class able to afford that the most, but it's still a cost to evaluate.

[BoBoDaClown]

I am thinking the same as you: probably the threat generation will be enough and Intimidate will be used for trash mobs.

However, there are a situations that could change everything:

• Intimidate+Shield Blocking being the optimal tactics at times
• Running into situations where you lose aggro often and then need to regrab aggro quickly
• Unusual aggro patterns (such as aggro clearing)
• 300% hate generation not being enough for some odd reason
• Needing to tank two (or more) mobs with high DCs at once

Thanks dude

[xberto]

2 - Rituals

Is this the armor and shield rituals? They stack?

[Borror0]

Is this the armor and shield rituals? They stack?

Yes, they do.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

More importantly, you would hit like a wet noddle if Intimidate is not needed like the Shroud, a beholder or if there is two intimitanks in the party.

The strength of a fighter, and why it will be the best tank class in Module 9, is that it can grab TWF while being spec'd for S&B intimitanking.

If we assume Exploiter stats:
10 Base
+4 Shield (Tempest III)
+8 Armor
+1 Alchemical
+9 Dexterity
+8 Wisdom
+5 Protection
+7 Dodge (IR+CR)
+1 Centered
+1 Dodge feat
+1 Two Weapon Defense
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
+3 Favored Defense
67 unbuffed AC
+5 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
+2 Luck
75 self buffed AC
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Dodge
85 buffed

Ability score calculations:

• Dexterity: 15 base + 4 tome + 3 Ranger's Dexterity III + 6 item = 28 Dex
• Wisdom: 14 base + 2 tome + 6 item + 2 Exceptional Wisdom = 24 Wis

You can play with the ability scores and race if you'd like but human 15/14 was about were I liked it most.

By the way, the Tempest ring was not included in my calculations and may mess things up a bit.

Calcs are a hair off, but that's ok. I don't count situationals, like Favored Defense, plus Wis is 7 not 8... but whatever.

First, let's make it clear that Dex-based ranger/monk is a very, very bad build with no DPS and no close to no capacity to grab aggro on raid bossses unless no one is beating on them. I think that, comes Module 9, S&B and Exploiter will be close to even on Armor Class.

I agree that Dex-based has a real problem with keeping Aggro. Even with splashing 1 Monk 1 Fgt/Rog for full Intimidate, the problem is keeping that Aggro, I agree... and I wish I had a better solution for it...

Then, grazing hits will do the job. From my calculations, there will be a significant advantage for S&B if both build only get hit on 20s.

We also get the 6 DR/- from Stalwart/DoS which helps a quite a bit with grazing hits.

Yeah, and DR 6/- looks to be VERY valuable... too bad DR doesn't stack, cuz a WF version would rock then!

In that respect, I think that Str-based pure fighter will be the most solid intimitank build there is unless saves requirement are very high and make a big difference, in which case 18f/2p will be better. He will have 300% aggro generation, which the ranger/monk will not and that will make keeping aggro much easier for the fighter. The fighter will also have up to +10 to Intimidate from class abilities over the Explotier and higher Cha which will probably be at least +2 to Intimidate.

Oh, and then you've got the possibility for more intimidate from feats, too.

Again, I agree... I was just wishing more than anything

You just changed your mind or you realized it would not work? I didn't play much with a DoS paladin yet.

No, I haven't played with a DoS Paladin, but what can DoS give a Paladin to catch up? Pally is behind no matter what you do today, and DoS is almost identical to Stalwart Defender... and even the +1 Aura doesn't give enough to catch up. If they gave Pally's AM & TSM, or something that benefits just the Pally... but alas!

Just enough to realize it won't be easy to put together.

In before "Agile character dodge hits better!!!111"

[/quote]
I know the theory, it is just messed up in my mind... or the fact that wearing Heavy Armor and shield doesn't inherently grant some stacking DR! Let's look at it from that stance... the Heavy Armor guy can't move as well, but you have to hit a LOT harder to really hurt him... whereas the unarmored guy may be nimble, but if you connect, it's really gonna hurt him!