Elven Falchion Barbarians

[gfunk]

Are there many people out there who have tried this on Beta? Obviously, not many people would choose Elf as a barbarian, however the elf does get the +2 falchion enhancment, and now that weapon speed is fixed they should do some pretty decent damage.

Certainly, I think the other races have better features which make a typical good barbarian, i.e.:

Dwarf: lots of Con/hp, tactics enhancments, axe enhancements, good saves/balance
WF: lots of Con/hp, tactics enhancments, PA enhancments, good immunities (esp immunity to exhaustion)
Human: human stat versatility, healing amp

I'm pretty sure that most people will continue to choose mostly one of the above races for barbarians, and Elves will continue to be a rarity even given the mod 9 changes. There just doesn't seem to be enough advantage for going elf to compete with the other races. The improved crit effects from falchion might be nice, but things like radience aren't adding a tonne of damage unless you are a halfling. And you are better off with twf for things like stat damaging.

Anyways, I rolled one up just to be a contrarian (and partially because I had been collecting falchions for the last couple of months anyways and needed to use them somewhere). If anyone has some experiences with an elven barb, I would like to hear about it.

[Thanimal]

Been discussing this recently. It seems the main reason to consider Elf, once the damage gets at least close to WF or Dwarf is the possibility of Displacement Dragonmarks.

But this ain't easy because Barbarians have just enough feats (through 16) for Toughness [all the more relevant on an Elf], Power Attack, iCrit, 3 x (TWF or THF). The extra feat at 18 is "available" for a Dragonmark, but you need two. And really it hardly seems worth it without Extend, since that works FREE on the Displacement Dragonmark, making it equivalent to doubling the number of times you can use it per day.

So it seems a splash for extra feats is needed, with the only options being Fighter (which can get many of the normally required feats as FBF) and Wizard (for Extend). Sadly, Wizard seems to have almost no other synergy with the build -- neither Repair nor Shield wand is all that useful here. But 2 Fighters levels do bring a few nice-to-haves like +1 STR and FHB1.

So I think I'd do two Fighter levels for a master feat list (through 20) of:
Fighter: iCrit, gTWF (I like these as FBFs so you can grab them exactly at the level they unlock)
Base (in no particular order): Dragonmark x 2, Extend, TWF, iTWF, Toughness, Power Attack

As you say, I'm not really convinced this is actually worth building compared to some other Barbarians. The lower CON cutting into Rage time is HARSH, and the DPS is ultimately a little less than what WF can achieve with PA (unless enemy AC is extremely high).

But I think it's at least interesting. And maybe there's something there.

[Lymnus]

But I think it's at least interesting. And maybe there's something there.

I think what we're missing is that it's, quite possibly, better to go Kensai than it in Barbarian here. Just because, as you said, feats.

[Memnir]

I think what we're missing is that it's, quite possibly, better to go Kensai than it in Barbarian here. Just because, as you said, feats.

I've been trying to come up with a good build for a TWF elven scimitar Kensai for that very reason.

I still think that with the changes to THF and the racial enhancement line - WF will be the way to go for two-handers.

[Angelus_dead]

Been discussing this recently. It seems the main reason to consider Elf, once the damage gets at least close to WF or Dwarf is the possibility of Displacement Dragonmarks.

Uh, in mod 9 an elf has definitively more damage than a dwarf.

I don't how it could be remotely worth spending feats or even class levels on something that you can make on a Greensteel helmet, or that any Bard, Sorc, or Wiz can cast on you 30 times a day.

[Thanimal]

Uh, in mod 9 an elf has definitively more damage than a dwarf.

Are you refering to THF? I can't think of how the DPS relationship in TWF has changed, since theoretically Rapier is the same DPS as Scimitar. Am I forgetting something?

I don't how it could be remotely worth spending feats or even class levels on something that you can make on a Greensteel helmet, or that any Bard, Sorc, or Wiz can cast on you 30 times a day.

Fair point. Could make you a lot more flexible for PUGing, though? Also, a build is going to have dozens if not hundreds of hours on it before it has a Greensteel helmet, given that being a lower priority than optimal DPS weapons.

[Borror0]

Are you refering to THF?

He is.

Best THF weapon: Falchion
Beast TWF weapon: Khopesh

Thus, elf is highest DPS than dwarf for THf and both are even for TWF.

[Shade]

Forget the numbers, If you like the Elf, play an Elf.

The difference in DPS between Dwarves, Warforged, Elves or any race is extremely miniscule in the grand scheme of things, so just play the one you like. Or play them all.

[gfunk]

Uh, in mod 9 an elf has definitively more damage than a dwarf.

I don't how it could be remotely worth spending feats or even class levels on something that you can make on a Greensteel helmet, or that any Bard, Sorc, or Wiz can cast on you 30 times a day.

yeah.. I have plenty of ingredients so a displacement item is the way to go form me.. I would only consider dragon marks on a fighter build as it just takes up too many valuable feats.

He is.

Best THF weapon: Falchion
Beast TWF weapon: Khopesh

Thus, elf is highest DPS than dwarf for THf and both are even for TWF.

Yeah, but is it higher where it matters? i.e. you get more vs. trash, but.. you could also be a tactics maul user (wf or dwarf) and stun your trash for more dps

Forget the numbers, If you like the Elf, play an Elf.

The difference in DPS between Dwarves, Warforged, Elves or any race is extremely miniscule in the grand scheme of things, so just play the one you like. Or play them all.

Makes sense to me..

Though I do like trying to find something that a given race/ build can do particularily well and try and focus on that. For human barbs I would max healing amp, and focus on surviveability. For dwarves and WF I would make sure to max out tactics. Elves seem to lack something to distinguish themselves with... a little more dps from falchion hardly seems a defining characteristic. I think that a large part of the reason I rolled one was to try and find something that they were extra-useful at.

[Monkey_Archer]

Have seriously considered rolling an elf barb for this very reason.

Any1 experienced in Twich THF attacking knows that every little + to hit matters. Combine the elf to hit bonuses with the best THF weapon, on the best THF class and we have something going here.

[Monkey_Archer]

I've been trying to come up with a good build for a TWF elven scimitar Kensai for that very reason.

Kensai 3 is really lack-lustre for a x2 multiplier weapon.... Best dual scimmy fighter ive found is the basic monster build for seeker bonuses.

[Twerpp]

If the best dwarven and warforged 2h barb players in DDO rolled falchion elf barbs and played with the same gear and skills I doubt a single person in their parties or guild could tell a noticeable difference.

Just come up with a good story for your elven maniac!!!!

[Dark-Star]

Has it been officially stated that falcion swing speed was fixed? I have only read that great sword and great axe were equalized.

[Shade]

Yeah, but is it higher where it matters? i.e. you get more vs. trash, but.. you could also be a tactics maul user (wf or dwarf) and stun your trash for more dps

Yea I like max dps also. I'd make an elf if I believed they could claim the title.. But the above is quite the reason I don't believe that.

Dwarf/WF + Weighted maul is the ultimate way to take down all those giants in mod8 stuff. Stun + Destroy with x3-5 crits without worry about any critical threat, you always crit. Or anything with a ton of HP you can't vorpal.. And even if you can vorpal - a more reliable way.

And for anything you can stun.. Having a greataxe equiped means a ton more dps, because x3-x5 crits utterly destroys everything almost instantly.. While x2 still takes a few seconds.

Then versus bosses.. The hardest ones where DPS matters the most have enough fortification to make Greataxes better base damage outperform falchions small critical advantage.

Then you have even more factors never considered in this "falchions does more dps" statement. Such as lower base damage also leading to lower glancing blow damage.

Other big one for me: When a Frenzied Berserker Dwarf/WF wielding a Greataxe criticals.. Quite often the mob will be straightup 1shot, as ~400-600 hp seems to be a pretty common value for high lvl non-giant/devil mobs. Falcion just won't be 1shotting anything like that. It's just really fun to be able to kill mobs instantly without stopping, without relying on a vorpal (as a DPS wep would do it twice as often 19-20 vs 20)

Then the mere fact of being an elf provides significant disadvantages vs Dwarf/WF that they don't really make up for elsewhere.. Mainly the large drop in con for allot less HP and a large drop in rage duration (~36 seconds less per rage, x10 rages = ~360 less seconds total) Then dwarven spell resist/WF immunities vs what elfs get? Sleep immunity? heh.

[Shade]

Has it been officially stated that falcion swing speed was fixed? I have only read that great sword and great axe were equalized.

Eladrin said all weapons were fixed, not just specific ones. I personally only tested Greatswords and Greatclubs. There both noticably nice and fast. Falchion is the same im sure.

[Monkey_Archer]

Yea I like max dps also. I'd make an elf if I believed they could claim the title.. But the above is quite the reason I don't believe that.

Dwarf/WF + Weighted maul is the ultimate way to take down all those giants in mod8 stuff. Stun + Destroy with x3-5 crits without worry about any critical threat, you always crit. Or anything with a ton of HP you can't vorpal.. And even if you can vorpal - a more reliable way.

Nothing is stopping an elf from using weighted mauls as well
a couple extra dc isnt that big of a deal.

Then versus bosses.. The hardest ones where DPS matters the most have enough fortification to make Greataxes better base damage outperform falchions small critical advantage.

Actually, at 50% fort, falchions and greataxes do about the same dps. Falchions do higher at less then 50%, greataxes do higher on more then 50%.

Then you have even more factors never considered in this "falchions does more dps" statement. Such as lower base damage also leading to lower glancing blow damage.

approximately 1 less damage per glancing blow

Other big one for me: When a Frenzied Berserker Dwarf/WF wielding a Greataxe criticals.. Quite often the mob will be straightup 1shot, as ~400-600 hp seems to be a pretty common value for high lvl non-giant/devil mobs. Falcion just won't be 1shotting anything like that. It's just really fun to be able to kill mobs instantly without stopping, without relying on a vorpal (as a DPS wep would do it twice as often 19-20 vs 20)

No, falchion wont be 1 shotting anything... but it will consistently 2 shot it.
While the greataxes will consistently 3 shot it, and get lucky some times with 1 shots.

Then the mere fact of being an elf provides significant disadvantages vs Dwarf/WF that they don't really make up for elsewhere.. Mainly the large drop in con for allot less HP and a large drop in rage duration (~36 seconds less per rage, x10 rages = ~360 less seconds total) Then dwarven spell resist/WF immunities vs what elfs get? Sleep immunity? heh.

Cant argue there. Ye old dps vs survivability question....

[Angelus_dead]

Also, a build is going to have dozens if not hundreds of hours on it before it has a Greensteel helmet, given that being a lower priority than optimal DPS weapons.

To build a good weapon takes larges (and lots of them), while a Displacement clicky only uses med and small. Because for about a year mediums dropped more and were spent less, there are many players with a big supply that they'll trade away with very little encouragement needed. (Even the fact that they can now spend mediums on TOD rings won't raise the demand much)

[sigtrent]

Forget the numbers, If you like the Elf, play an Elf.

The difference in DPS between Dwarves, Warforged, Elves or any race is extremely miniscule in the grand scheme of things, so just play the one you like. Or play them all.

I almost can't believe you said that! I happen to agree. The stats might slightly favor one or the other but they will all work well.

[cforce]

To build a good weapon takes larges (and lots of them), while a Displacement clicky only uses med and small. Because for about a year mediums dropped more and were spent less, there are many players with a big supply that they'll trade away with very little encouragement needed. (Even the fact that they can now spend mediums on TOD rings won't raise the demand much)

I think the time that Thanimal's referring to is the time it takes to level a character to being Shroud-ready in the first place, not the actual Shroud runs. A displacement clicky doesn't help from levels 6-14, because it doesn't exist yet.

Of course, who cares about non-end-game-content?

[kodiak974]

Kensai 3 is really lack-lustre for a x2 multiplier weapon.... Best dual scimmy fighter ive found is the basic monster build for seeker bonuses.

I think your wrong about the x2... You take a triple positive Falchion and consider 30% of swings are crits and that will over take any x3 crit weapon. And lets face it, end boss fights are where we want the damage. Lest not forget that all those burst effects that require a crit hit always land even if the mob has 100% fort.