Vision of Destruction

[Roman]

Actually when I lead I prefer a Flesh tank, one thing about most flesh tanks is that they can be healed with a Wand by a Ranger or anyone with UMD--most flesh tanks rarely take damage and if they do take damage they have healing amp. It sure makes single clericing easier. With High Ac they are not getting cursed as long as they are not getting hit. When I lead, I only use a WF if no one else is guild or Friends list has a High AC fleshie. I've run too many times with WF that cost the casters too much--no one should have to use a ton of resources. Ive also joined pugs where the WF takes so much damage that 2 casters cant keep them up.

Sally can be debuffed, but your right some of those spells don't work on her. I use prayer to boost damage--I know it does nothing for Sally. In some groups I use Solid Fog if the caster does not have acid, but not for Sally.

But thats whats wonderful about this game, we can use so many different strats to be the same raid

Please don't make blanket statements about warforged. My main is warforged and I can self buff to 68AC and raid buff to 80AC. Being warforged does not mean low AC. I can also hit 94% healing efficiency if needed. So no, warforged are not hard to heal either.

[Paladin20]

75-80?! Runs I've been on we wait for 48 then DPS down for Orothons, wait for Orothons to drop (52) and DPS Sally down for bats.

You're probably right... been a while since I last checked.

[Kalari]

Have to agree with Roman only because I know a of a high ac wf tank but then again the person behind it really knows his stuff. And when hes tanking Sally its really easy on my casters with the reconstruct cause Sally barely hits him. Fleshy tanks as long as they know what they are doing are fine if they can hold aggro. But I have liked the wf method as well specially since I prefer my casters to my clerics still. I dunno to each his/her own ive yet to fail a vod and ive played back in the day when I was on satellite and unsure if my heals were even going off. I think if you have a strong group going in the raid is a cake walk. And in a pug people who listen and dont panic if things get a little hairy can turn things around if something bad happens. As for my track record I have 20 or nearly 20 completes on over 6 girls and ive run with many guilds threw this my first one being a hard on my cleric with a pug and one guildie of mine.

[kuro_zero]

Agree with ya Moops. Reason I don't run my Sorc more often through there (even tho I would very much like those items). The majority of pug strategy rely on a WF sally tank and an Orothon intimi-tank. I don't run if I don't recognize the two full-filling that role (and prefer guildies, of course).

Being a WF isn't the be-all, end all req for tanking Sally. Without some form of damage mitigation (looking at respectable AC or a DoD) you'll just end up being a mana drain leaving casters with no mana (and minus 150 reconstruct scroll) for when they need it most (kamikaze bats).

The way I see it is the WF no-AC tank strategy is for PUGs that in fact need 4 clerics to keep up with healing. Its just helluva lot easier getting two arcanes to play cleric and a WF melee then convincing 4 clerics to join a VoD...

The two Wave spells should work (Fatique, Exhaustion, lvl 5 & 7 respecfully) but I rarely see casters use em. Not sure if Symbols work on Raid bosses (Pain and hopefully Weakness come mod-9). Also not sure if Sally goes to her perch if that globe effect completely removes any debuffs requiring re-casting when she drops down again. That would be annoying.

My hope is that Disjunction will remove that spell mantle effect from her (or Sor'jek's Command, etc) but probably not since an easy raid would become even easier.

[moops]

Please don't make blanket statements about warforged. My main is warforged and I can self buff to 68AC and raid buff to 80AC. Being warforged does not mean low AC. I can also hit 94% healing efficiency if needed. So no, warforged are not hard to heal either.

I didnt make a blanket statement---I pointed out my experiences, I never said that all WF are low AC mana sponges--I simply that said I Prefer High AC Fleshies because they rarely take damage, can be healed by Rangers and anyone with UMD and usually have healling AMP--I guess I should've added that most UMD non casters do not carry repair wands and cure wands just don't work as well on WF--My Bad.

I should've also add that since I primarily run 3 clerics through here, I like to be able to not have to pay close attention to the main tank, and to be able to take care of them myself if **** hits the fan--and while there are definitely WF exceptions, many are cursed the entire time, don't bother to remove them, and then when I go to throw a heal on them because the caster just died or tapped, it doesn't work.

But I did add in my post that the the wonderful thing was that we can all use a diff strat for the raid, and still be successful. Now for fun, You could try to beat our SPeed Record using a WF tank though We used a Fleshie That would be great Fun. 7 Min Normal, 15 Min ELite.

[gfunk]

Please don't make blanket statements about warforged. My main is warforged and I can self buff to 68AC and raid buff to 80AC. Being warforged does not mean low AC. I can also hit 94% healing efficiency if needed. So no, warforged are not hard to heal either.

Well, I think its fair to say that most WF tanks take up a tonne of healing resources. For some reason, high AC warforged melees are few and far between. I know there are WF, AC builds are out there (your ranger for example, or some monk splash WF's), but I've never encountered one in any of my VOD runs (though I have tanked on my WF, who currently gets to ~67 AC which is enough to significantly reduce the amount of resources required). It does seem that a large proportion of people who have WF have gone the DoD route, and not bothered with AC.

Anyways, the point is that whatever the race, a good AC tank is way easier to run with than a HP/DR tank.

[kuro_zero]

I didnt make a blanket statement---I pointed out my experiences, I never said that all WF are low AC mana sponges--I simply that said I Prefer High AC Fleshies because they can be healed by Rangers and anyone with UMD and usually have healling AMP--I guess I should've added that most UMD non casters do not carry repair wands and cure wands just don't work as well on WF--My Bad.

*shrug* I didn't read it as a blanket statement concerning WF, and has been my experience as well trying to run my sorc through VoDs. And GlaDOS is a high AC WF (well, high-ish, still need Chattering ring, +1 Except Dex on DT Tempest, and a +3 Dex Tome for a total +5 to AC)

Problem with healing amp is that its available to fleshies as well and there is no equivalent for WF and reconstructs. A WF needs it to just break-even, a fleshie with same and high AC can now be healed through with cure lights and cure mods, or wands.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

yup you're right prayer and ray aren't going to work, but waves of exhaustion (even from scrolls) and waves of fatigue (although I'm still not sure they stack, I need to test that!) along with CK and, if you're lucky, a symbol of pain are still very good debuffs in VOD.

Every time I've run with a WF 'tank' it's been a high dps low AC - maybe I was just unlucky all 20 times I ran it; I do agree that running with a high AC WF tank would be the best of both worlds, especially as a WF can 'hate boost' to get that initial aggro.

I for one, just can't stand having to use any resources during a (normal) VOD run, and it seems that in a group with a WF 'tank' - the leaders expect the sorcs to spam reconstruct scrolls on the WF. And if a wizard is along and tasked instead, then they're likely to run out of mana and have to drink pots. I suffered through VOD pugs for 20 painful runs to get my glacial bracers, and now I'm happy to pick and choose my runs, where the tank can be kept up with a single ranger/bard with a CSW wand (or simply doesn't need any healing at all), and my conjuration speced sorc can use his specialisation to full potential (webs, tts etc etc) rather than just mashing the same button for 15 minutes.

Once again, people willing to do the AC tank method (be it fleshy or WF) let me know and I'll be happy to bring someone - even my cleric! - along.

Garth

[Roman]

You could try to beat our SPeed Record using a WF tank though We used a Fleshie That would be great Fun. 7 Min Normal, 15 Min ELite.

I think your original post shows a gross ignorance of the race (personal opinion). And your speed record is not impressive. I have run three Chinese pugs that matched or beat your time. I guess they aren't out for the glory and never bothered to post it on the forums.

[Kalari]

I think its been your luck Garth but I do admit to being spoiled. I run this raid guild only now so the scrolls I do admit to using are most of the time given to me if I dont buy them myself. my mana is used for debuffs and web and other cc for the trash. I dont think Kal has ever used a pot in that raid though Kam my cleric has during hairy runs.

I still think its to each their own. If there was one guaranteed successful way to run this raid everyone would be doing it and it would probably be boring. OP I hope you have more successful runs in the future. And friday night if the guild is not bursting with people sometimes Lost Legions throws up lfm's for the quest. Like I said most of the time we get to it were really tanked from doing the drinking game and I dont think I can remember failing that raid with them ever. Granted I dont remember much come morning but definitely dont remember ever whiping a vod even with hella lag

[moops]

I think your original post shows a gross ignorance of the race (personal opinion). And your speed record is not impressive. I have run three Chinese pugs that matched or beat your time. I guess they aren't out for the glory and never bothered to post it on the forums.

Well ty. . ..

I was just throwing down a friendly challenge, trying to make things fun--we have one with people on Khyber server and its been great--we've even rolled alts on Khyber because of it. I do run with the Chinese as well- and they have all congratulated us, and said that they cant beat 7 mins due to lag--Im positive that if they didn't face the lag issues that they do, that they would beat us or tie us--Sally does sit on her perch a awful long time, so Im not sure that 6 Mins is attainable.

It was their Records that we set out to beat, they posted screenies in Sarlona and Acheivement forums.

[Roman]

Anyways, the point is that whatever the race, a good AC tank is way easier to run with than a HP/DR tank.

Gfunk, I have a great feal of respect for your opinion, and I agree. The real point is that AC > HP/DR. and it has NOTHING to do with race, as you stated. Prefering fleshy over WF is silly. Prefer AC over Hp/DR, sure. but race has nothing to do with it. And healing amp on a high AC tank is irrelevent.

[kuro_zero]

yup you're right prayer and ray aren't going to work, but waves of exhaustion (even from scrolls) and waves of fatigue (although I'm still not sure they stack, I need to test that!)

{snip}

They stack. Tested with a wizard friend of mine in the brawling PvP pits

I think your original post shows a gross ignorance of the race (personal opinion).

All entitled to our own opinions. And majority of the time they're better held to one's self.

And your speed record is not impressive. I have run three Chinese pugs that matched or beat your time. I guess they aren't out for the glory and never bothered to post it on the forums.

But you could have.

Maybe too late for this thread to descend into a flame war of he-said / she-said (therefore will wash my hands of this thread). I would have liked the OP to chime in on his experience during yesterday's (around 3pm-ish PST) successful run. Maybe he can get in before the lock...

[Roman]

Well ty. . ..

I was just throwing down a friendly challenge, trying to make things fun--we have one with people on Khyber server and its been great--we've even rolled alts on Khyber because of it. I do run with the Chinese as well- and they have all congratulated us, and said that they cant beat 7 mins due to lag--Im positive that if they didn't face the lag issues that they do, that they would beat us or tie us--Sally does sit on her perch a awful long time, so Im not sure that 6 Mins is attainable.

Moops you are not special or amazing in anyway that I have personally witnessed. I've seen pugs achieve what you think is worthy of a post in the achivements forum on a regular basis. Your challenge for speed runs doesn't excite me in the least.

[Phidius]

Frankly, I think having competent players who know what they are doing and how to communicate trumps every other stategy/race/class

Which explains why the PUG experience is so unpredictable.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

They stack. Tested with a wizard friend of mine in the brawling PvP pits

Ah good to know - thanks for that info. Interestingly when I cast Waves of Fatigue then I get the 'you hit sulu with fatigued' and then if I cast the waves of exhaustion I get 'you hit sulu with exhausted' - but if I do it the other way round, I get the exhausted message, but I never get the fatigued message - that was why I had a feeling they didn't stack or there was something fishy going on. I just always make sure I fatigue before I exhaust now... or maybe I'm just remembering things badly.

Garth

[Phidius]

Roman, you seem a bit testy today... did Moops do something to your Cheerios?

Maybe I'm getting the Titan's chest of PUGs... I've never been in a PUG that was even close to the accomplishments I've seen Moops & Co. post on the Achievements.

[Turial]

Have all the melee other then the main tank kill the bats as well as the casters. Problem solved.

So true.

[Roman]

Roman, you seem a bit testy today... did Moops do something to your Cheerios?

Maybe I'm getting the Titan's chest of PUGs... I've never been in a PUG that was even close to the accomplishments I've seen Moops & Co. post on the Achievements.

My Cheerios are good. I was just posting for the edification of the minority.

[beelzebaba]

the current record is 7 minutes on norm. 15 minutes on elite. To say that a pug can beat this without specifically trying to do so is ridiculous.

BTW i can beat Micheal Phelps in a swimming race and have done it many times. I just dont need to prove it to any of you idiots.

Oh yeah i once beat Mike Tyson in a fight...because i claim it, it must be true