Drow Fighter 12/ Ranger 6/ Blank 2?

[EinarMal]

So the rogue will manage with 7 less will save then? On a fighter? Please...

+5 prot
chaosgarde
teir 3 shroud item

That's the only three on that breakdown.
If you can find something better than DT armor or Icy, please let me know.

Believe it or not sometimes will saves don't matter and sometimes they do....

[Yargore]

Believe it or not sometimes will saves don't matter and sometimes they do....

lol. Now that's a solid argument.
Make usre to keep that inmind when you're dispelled and greater commanded!

[EinarMal]

lol. Now that's a solid argument.

Some fights = no casting of spells at you that use will save = no need for wisdom item = rogue who doesn't have wisdom bonus to AC = take off item for some other item

Fighter with monk splash = committed to AC = never take off wisdom item

Dumbed it down for you...

[Yargore]

Some fights = no casting of spells at you that use will save = no need for wisdom item = rogue who doesn't have wisdom bonus to AC = take off item for some other item

What other item exactly?

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Some fights = no casting of spells at you that use will save = no need for wisdom item = rogue who doesn't have wisdom bonus to AC = take off item for some other item

Fighter with monk splash = committed to AC = never take off wisdom item

Dumbed it down for you...

1. Nothing says that the monk HAS to have ac, he can use all the guards possible and still be +3 saves, +2 feats, +2 flank tohit +1 wisdom.
2. Every smart player has a pos+neg teir 2/3 for +6 wisdom, hp and other stuff. +6 wisdom is for FREE, there is NOTHING you can have instead of it.

[Monkey_Archer]

On a drow? Yes, will save is important. Maybe a WF could afford to neglect it

UMD takes 0-3 item slots (cartouche/7FG + shroud item + charisma 6) and dont need to be worn all the time.

AC takes 3-7 items/item slots
Prot 5
Chaosguards/Armor bracers
Insight item
Chattering
Icy
(Wisdom 6 + Dex 6) - Technincally can be dropped but most likely would be used on the rogue version anyway.

[EinarMal]

1. Nothing says that the monk HAS to have ac, he can use all the guards possible and still be +3 saves, +2 feats, +2 flank tohit +1 wisdom.
2. Every smart player has a pos+neg teir 2/3 for +6 wisdom, hp and other stuff. +6 wisdom is for FREE, there is NOTHING you can have instead of it.

Sure eventually if you are not tired of grinding shroud you can have an item like that.

You forgot the negatives for the monk splash:
Minus 1d6+3 DPS
Minus UMD

Two things must be true for the Monk build to be better, you have to really need the feats, and you have to be getting some use out of the wisdom AC bonus.

The feats are make or break, if you NEED the two feats monk makes sense, in most builds I see they are fluff and taking 2 feats out wouldn't affect the build. The one exception is the dragonmarked Halfling.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Sure eventually if you are not tired of grinding shroud you can have an item like that.

If that is how you see it, then you are completely different than I am, and you value different things. I value perfection you do not. Hence Arguing is futile, but know that I advocate the best.

You forgot the negatives for the monk splash:
Minus 1d6+3 SA damage.
Minus UMD

Corrected it for you. 6,5 sa damage on a very high damage build without any -threat isn't exactly reliable.
Though still useful, just not enough.

[EinarMal]

If that is how you see it, then you are completely different than I am, and you value different things. I value perfection you do not. Hence Arguing is futile, but know that I advocate the best.


Corrected it for you. 6,5 sa damage on a very high damage build without any -threat isn't exactly reliable.
Though still useful, just not enough.

I wonder if it is theoretically possible for you to not post last in a thread.... Perfection what a joke...your big problem is you think things are way more black and white than they actually are.

[ryingar]

I've currently got a toon with the 12/ftr/6rng/2misc in mind. I personally went with rog and not monk, specifically for the UMD and the trap skills. Currently sitting with 9ftr/6rng/1rog, UMD is sitting at 35 with a few pieces of situational gear, AC sits at 54 standing,no CE on, no icy or chattering yet...had a lot of bad luck with loot. I Have had a lot of fun with this toon, though I have had a bit of trouble keeping the skill points properly allocated. only boost search on rog/rng lvls, umd on all, DD on all, and diplo when you can (really just to agro a bunch and drop them right on top of the pali). I'd have to check my toon and builder for more specifics but thats about the gist of it. I remember the skill points being the most difficult to juggle more than anything though. And that the ton didn't really come into his own until about lvl 14/15, being rather equipment dependent.

Hope this info helps the OP.

Cheers

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I wonder if it is theoretically possible for you to not post last in a thread....

Theoratically, yes. Pratically, not really.
Well not until my US sub runs out anyways.

Perfection what a joke...your big problem is you think things are way more black and white than they actually are.

Your big problem is that you do not have enough game experience.

[EinarMal]

Theoratically, yes. Pratically, not really.
Well not until my US sub runs out anyways.



Your big problem is that you do not have enough game experience.

Hah maybe, although part 1 of the reason why you must post last is highly correlated with your diagnosis of my problems (at least your answer to part 1).

Not everyone likes to grind for items, I simply re-roll or take a break when there is nothing interesting left to do. Unfortunately I was "fooled" a bit by thinking something new was coming or I would not be posting here at all

Just because someone chooses to play a different way, does not make your way better. I have no desire to grind for a shroud item so I can have some extra stoneskin clickies, I will just have UMD and use the wands. That is why things are not as black and white as you make them out to be.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Just because someone chooses to play a different way, does not make your way better. I have no desire to grind for a shroud item so I can have some extra stoneskin clickies, I will just have UMD and use the wands. That is why things are not as black and white as you make them out to be.

You are very correct. No way is superior to another.
What I mean is that the person with stacked shroud items and the best raid loot and non-raid loot in the game will have a superior character to the guy who do not have anything.

PS: Last post, I promise!

[EinarMal]

PS: Last post, I promise!

Lies! Ha-ha, how about we say that if you go Fighter 12/Ranger 6 and choose either Rogue or Monk it will work out well either way? For that matter you could pick Fighter or Barbarian and still work out well.

The truth is Fighter 12/Ranger 6 is just good period, and anyone with any kind of build acumen can figure that out and make it work.

[Thucydides04]

I think the monk might be better for the above stated reason (ac, feats,...), but also consider this: UMD is cross class so base umd will be 11 (11.5 if you want to us the skill point)
so we have
UMD = 11 base + 4 GH + 6 Shroud Item (which can also be a min 2 item giving heavy fort and +5 prot and extra sp) +5/3 7fingered Gloves/Cartouche + 2 Head of GF + 4 CHA bonus + 4 Skill boost = 36/34 UMD when you need to wand whip a stoneskin or shield wand your hitting 90+% of the time, same on raise scrolls. Just my $.02.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

I think the monk might be better for the above stated reason (ac, feats,...), but also consider this: UMD is cross class so base umd will be 11 (11.5 if you want to us the skill point)
so we have
UMD = 11 base + 4 GH + 6 Shroud Item (which can also be a min 2 item giving heavy fort and +5 prot and extra sp) +5/3 7fingered Gloves/Cartouche + 2 Head of GF + 4 CHA bonus + 4 Skill boost = 36/34 UMD when you need to wand whip a stoneskin or shield wand your hitting 90+% of the time, same on raise scrolls. Just my $.02.

Actually, with rogue level at first level it's a crossclass with full ranks. So it'll be 19(21) ranks.

PS: I failed my promise!

[Aerendil]

PS: I failed my promise!

Yes, you did.

PS - there, I saved you

PPS - no no, don't thank me - you'll ruin it again

[Yajerman01]

The one exception is the dragonmarked Halfling.

I always pop my head every now and again when it comes to UMDvs Two extra feats and I will tell you that I HAD to take 2 monks levels over 2 rogue levels because I wanted my current halfling 11/3/2 Fighter/Pally/Monk to achieve Kensai II while maintaining his to-hit AND keeping all his Dragon Marks.

Depending on whether respect comes into play for skills or not may help me in the UMD department but not make it game breaking (I can see my character having a 25UMD potential)

Insofar as UMD is concerned it has its moments. One thing UMD cannot compete against is Casting Heals on the fly during battle because the dragon marks have no concentration checks.

I currently get between 1500 - 1950 in total heal/hps from all my dragon marks and my 2 LOH's. I have heal pots I haven't used in over 2 months and two wands I havent used either. as such, UMD is feckless against dragonmarks in-battle and cost expenditure.

The only use I wish to have for UMD is for the 10th Level SHield wand because of course, while being a strength based character I also have very decent AC - current base/sustained of 56 and a TOTAL raid buff of 73. I currently use shield clickies and titan cookies to reach my maximum, but clickies are a pain and turn off my CE when im going max AC.

As such, while UMD can play a significant role, it truly depends on the build and how usefull two extra feats will be for your character.

[Clawkin]

Without CE, 48. Still very useful. And as he is drow already, I doubt that he is all too dps focused.
You mean 2-3 items, right? Else you don't count very well.

Did I miss something? How does rolling a Drow mean I'm not DPS focused? With the Rapier racial maxed, Weapon spec into piercing, take rapiers as a kensai sig weapon. I do alot of shooting to soften up my targets as well, so + piercing should help that. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to make a MAX DPS toon because i enjoy the solo game most of all and know that survival needs to be balanced in there too. So far I've been working on two versions of this both have hit lvl 4 (I know that is just the tip of the iceberg). I do have to say that I can tell how the one with Rogue is squishier compared to the Monk but finaly being able to disable traps and pick locks is kind of nice as well. I do favor the Monk splash for my playstyle by a small margin. I do hate the "!" uncenterd thing alot though. I have been trying to map out the build with character planner v3.06 but for some reason I can't get it to recognise that I've take all of the requirements for Tempest. Other wise I'd just show you what i'm trying to do.

edit: PS this will be a 28 point toon, if I stumble across any + tomes they will more than likely be put into str.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.06
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Chaotic Good Drow Female
(12 Fighter \ 2 Rogue \ 6 Ranger) 
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 25 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Stats          Modified Stats
Abilities        (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             17                    22
Dexterity            16                    19
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               11                    11
Charisma             10                    10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     4
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         1                     1
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device        4                    13
Haggle                0                     0
Heal                  0                     0
Hide                  7                    16.5
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  3                    10
Listen                0                     2
Move Silently         7                    16.5
Open Lock             7                    12
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                4                    14.5
Spot                  4                    15.5
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                7                     9
Use Magic Device      4                     8

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Defense I
Enhancement: Rogue Tumble I


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I


Level 5 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence II
Enhancement: Ranger Hide I


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II


Level 8 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Mobility I
Enhancement: Ranger Move Silently I


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Spring Attack
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence III


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Armored Agility II


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Rapier Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Rapier Specialization I


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Critical
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost IV


Level 19 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Improved Drow Spell Resistence IV


Level 20 (Fighter)

here's a rough version of the Rogue splash, I could not get tempest to take and there seem to be some other bugs that won't let me take kensai II since 12 fighter was my last level. you'll have to imagine those in there. =P

[GunboatDiplomat]

Umd is amazingly useful on a tank. You can't underestimate the usefulness of being able to fully rebuff yourself after debuffs without going crying to a huffy caster who would rather save his sp for 'real spells' like finger of death or blade barrier. Of being able to heal yourself while running between fights without slowing down. Or doing both when seperated from the party/soloing. Here are some of the scrolls/wands my tank has access to all the time with his umd:

Greater Heroism
True Seeing
Heal
Restoration
Raise Dead
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Displacement (30 sec)
Level 11 resist energy
Level 10 protection from energy
Level 10 shield
Level 7 stoneskin

Of course all of these can be replicated, with a ton of grinding and a ton of item slots. How many shield clickies can you carry? How many planar girds? How much raid farming do you need to get true seeing goggles? How many shroud runs?

You need to do precisely zero of such farming to reliably use all of the above abilities - through the magic of umd, even at level 16! Here show my drow evasion tank did it:

19 Skill rogue splash
3 Skill focus feat
7 charisma (16 base, +6 item, +1 paladin, +1 tome)
4 GH (heroism pot to jump start to GH)
3 Deleras necklace
1 Voice of the master
37 Total with zero grinding

+1 Head of Good fortune
+1 Charisma tome +3
39 with only reaver raids

As a tank, I find umd to be the single most useful ability I have, other than intimidate. I'd argue its even better than evasion.

One more thing: Being able to use Race Required weapons without having to switch items can be extremely useful. That is a pain, especially with the 'clickie bug' and will become more so in the next mod.