Definition of a DPS Build

[Borror0]

Borrow i dont usually disagree with you so strongly but man are you off on that second point

How so? Nothing you've said contradicts that point: Visty's categorization is too simplistic.

[Vivanto]

Borrow i dont usually disagree with you so strongly but man are you off on that second point - snip -

And what's that gotta do with Borror0's statement?

You only showed that they are good to dps, nothing with being a bad supporter.

[rimble]

This is purely an imagined discourse but, the reason for posting, is that I want to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Yes, I know TWF is better than THF in current end game. But does that mean that THF is no longer considered a DPS build option? What percentage of the melee population should be considered DPS builds - top 30%? Or just the top 2%?

I usually consider it relative to the build itself.

You can make a 'DPS Rogue' or an 'Assassinate Rogue'.

You can make a 'DPS Fighter' or a 'Tactics Fighter'.

You can make a 'DPS Sorcerer' or a 'CC/Buff Sorcerer'.

You can make a 'DPS Paladin' or 'Balanced Paladin'.

And so on.

It's more about defining your personal goals for the character, and not how they stand in relation to other characters.

Now when you start throwing 'Max DPS' and 'Uber DPS' and 'Monster/Exploiter/God' and other silly monikers in front, then you're throwing yourself into the overall DPS comparison.

Guess I pretty much agree with people that are along these lines:

dps build - a build that focuses on damage. This does not say whether the build is good or not, whether it is high enough dps to be called a successful dps build, or even if it is effective enough to be wanted in party - all of these thing are measurable on a toon-by-toon basis ONLY, because so much of their dps is gear based.

[Thrudh]

I use a weird benchmark to think about DPS. I ask myself: if there were 8 clones of this character fighting the pit fiend on Part 4 of the Shroud on norm--how long would it take to get him down. If it is less than one round--uber dps. If it is between 1 and 1.5 rounds, solid DPS. If it is less then 2 rounds--ok DPS. If it is more than 2 rounds--I would not consider this a DPS character (it might become one with better gear, etc.; but it isn't one yet).

That's an interesting way of looking at it...

The problem is, it's still hard to tell how good YOU are... I've been in 1 rounders and 3 rounders with the same character. Was he carried in the 1 rounder? or was he dragged down by others in the 3 rounder?

The only thing I go by is the FIRST number.. I'd love to see the ubers give us some numbers on DAMAGE PER SWING... My understanding is that seeing a red 70-80 per swing (first number) on the Pit Fiend with a great axe (and 220-240 on crits) equals good DPS...

Is that true or not?

What numbers should TWF be seeing to be considered good? Again, first number only... What's a good damage number for THF and TWF against the Pit Fiend?

[Aranticus]

I usually consider it relative to the build itself.

You can make a 'DPS Rogue' or an 'Assassinate Rogue'.

or you can make a DPS assassinate rog

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.06
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(20 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 242
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 18
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            15                    20
Constitution         13                    16
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              8                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning III
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning IV
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile III
Enhancement: Halfling Guile IV
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabber I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II

You can make a 'DPS Fighter' or a 'Tactics Fighter'.

or you can make a DPS tactics fighter

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.06
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 362
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 9
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    28
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         13                    18
Intelligence         13                    14
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 20

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Iron Will
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 15 (Fighter)


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Trip
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery II
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

You can make a 'DPS Sorcerer' or a 'CC/Buff Sorcerer'.

You can make a 'DPS Paladin' or 'Balanced Paladin'.

And so on.

It's more about defining your personal goals for the character, and not how they stand in relation to other characters.

Now when you start throwing 'Max DPS' and 'Uber DPS' and 'Monster/Exploiter/God' and other silly monikers in front, then you're throwing yourself into the overall DPS comparison.

Guess I pretty much agree with people that are along these lines:

it doesnt meant that if you decide to specialize on 1 area, it means that you have to drop the DPS portion. one can still maintain high DPS with another function. a good build is a build great at doing something. a great build is a build great in 1 function and is good in another

[rimble]

or you can make a DPS assassinate rog

Of course you can. My list wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list of possibilities.

it doesnt meant that if you decide to specialize on 1 area, it means that you have to drop the DPS portion. one can still maintain high DPS with another function. a good build is a build great at doing something. a great build is a build great in 1 function and is good in another

Again, though, it says where you're focusing your character. If you make a 'DPS/Assassinate' Rogue, as opposed to an 'Assassinate/DPS' Rogue, when conflicts arise and you need to make a build choice...one build will choose the DPS choice and the other the Assassinate choice...it's just a general description of where your priorities are at.

[Aranticus]

Again, though, it says where you're focusing your character. If you make a 'DPS/Assassinate' Rogue, as opposed to an 'Assassinate/DPS' Rogue, when conflicts arise and you need to make a build choice...one build will choose the DPS choice and the other the Assassinate choice...it's just a general description of where your priorities are at.

agree but for some classes its easier to dual role ie a dps wiz can be a cc wiz. main stat is int and a wiz has like 11 or 12 feats. similarly for a fighter, the abundance of feats allow one to be good in more than 1 area

[Drfirewater79]

How so? Nothing you've said contradicts that point: Visty's categorization is too simplistic.

I am just saying rangers dont need support its really monks who are the only ones who need it ... palis got there boost by getting cap stone that kicks ass

monks completely lack support while all the other classes you listed are totally fine the way they are ..... do awesome damage and are great in parties and not hated on at all most of the time

i have seen great shroud parties that where 60% ranger and people say "oh low dps party" and then we kick his ass early 2nd round.

as for wining the only people i feel have need to truly wine about how gimped there are DPS wise from PnP to DDO is the monk .. in PnP its easy to create a monk that does near same damage as a barb .. in DDO we cant even keep up with rangers and palidans.

that is all i am saying ..... as far as poor support for classes monks get the short end of the stick every time.

and that is why monks aren't ever gonna be seen as a DPS class ..... even at lvl 20 with 2d10 fists .....dont even get me started on greensteel.

[Borror0]

I am just saying rangers dont need support

I know. I said that.

No, actually, I pushed it even further. I said that rangers can't support.

its really monks who are the only ones who need it

Monks could be DPS, tanking or support. The class design is quite open.

Sadly, they are nothing but an unshaped class with no specific goal or anything to make them contribute much.

[cluedout]

this is really not complicated, a DPS build is a build that can deal an amount of damage per second, reguardless of what anyone says, as per definition of dps

now, my wizard can dps with spells, my 2 rangers can dps with swords, my upcoming WF wiz/rog/ftr can dps with both swords and spells, my cleric can dps with his spell penn scepter/devotion 8 shield. so all my builds are now dps builds.

so for your DPS take the amount of damage you do in 1 min and divide by 60 and that is your dps.

have a good and wonderful day.

[Yargore]

as for wining the only people i feel have need to truly wine about how gimped there are DPS wise from PnP to DDO is the monk .. in PnP its easy to create a monk that does near same damage as a barb .. in DDO we cant even keep up with rangers and palidans.

Not even barbs can keep up with rangers right now though.

[Shade]

Not even barbs can keep up with rangers right now though.

Perhaps in your magical fairy land.

In the real game, no other class can keep up with Barbarians.

You know - DDO.. The game where even the Devs themselves finally acknoledge that Barbarians are overpowered so they nerf them by removing critical rage from the game. (the most massive increase to DPS ever)

[BlackSteel]

Perhaps in your magical fairy land.

In the real game, no other class can keep up with Barbarians.

You know - DDO.. The game where even the Devs themselves finally acknoledge that Barbarians are overpowered so they nerf them by removing critical rage from the game. (the most massive increase to DPS ever)

meh, crit rage is being nerfed more for the abuse of on crit effects than for damage. If it was solely for damage then you wouldnt be getting a crit multiplier addition with FB

[Borror0]

If it was solely for damage then you wouldnt be getting a crit multiplier addition with FB

...especially since it leads to equal DPS on khopesh. You know, the highest DPS one handed weapon.

As for THF, Critical Rage II is far less DPS than FB III on the best two-handed weapon; falchion.

[78mackson]

...especially since it leads to equal DPS on khopesh. You know, the highest DPS one handed weapon.

50%+ fort on stuff that really matters doesnt help crits that much either... IMHO I think they could let the barbs keep the crit-range and just let em(em? .. eurm.. I also got one ofc) pay more AP for it..

[Borror0]

I think they could let the barbs keep the crit-range and just let em [...] pay more AP for it..

There were two identifiable problems with Critical Rage:

1. It was strongly biased toward high critical hit multiplier
2. It was improving barbarians' ability to kill outside from DPS (Puncturing, Banishing, etc.)

Frenzied Berserker do neither; it benefits equally to all weapons and does not improve barbarians' ability to kill outside of their DPS.

Simply increasing the AP cost would not have sufficed.

[bobbryan2]

I consider every melee who isn't actively trying to keep aggro a DPS build. You can differentiate between tanks and DPS... but anything else is a stretch.

There really aren't utility or support builds in my opinion. There's just good DPS builds and bad DPS builds.

[78mackson]

There were two identifiable problems with Critical Rage:

1. It was strongly biased toward high critical hit multiplier
2. It was improving barbarians' ability to kill outside from DPS (Puncturing, Banishing, etc.)

Frenzied Berserker do neither; it benefits equally to all weapons and does not improve barbarians' ability to kill outside of their DPS.

Simply increasing the AP cost would not have sufficed.

ye wop barbs were uber mod8 but not in next... and the new viscious thinghy is certainly not as great as con-drainers were in mod8..

what I mean is...
its sad to see the cool class with an axe symbol going way down the list in terms of DPS.. oh well.. atleast you know what u get when u take a barb.. or w8 you dont(u can still get the sword n board type and the thf-non twitcher)....

[Borror0]

its sad to see the cool class with an axe symbol going way down the list in terms of DPS..

Way down? If THF, its DPS went up quite a bit with Module 9.

If TWF, then Frenzied Berserker III is still an improvement over Critical Rage II but not enough to make up for what other classes got.

[78mackson]

Way down? If THF, its DPS went up quite a bit with Module 9.

If TWF, then Frenzied Berserker III is still an improvement over Critical Rage II but not enough to make up for what other classes got.

makes up(frenzied) vs rangers imho.. and seriously, THF?

to be close to par, u need to twitch:
* non-stop twitching is for ppl who needs ritalin. my wrists gets sore enough from not doing it.

* Lag issiues makes it close to impossible to twitch correctly.(and usually/ofc it lags where it really counts :P)

* THF:er is also lousy at stat dmging and vorpalise. makes stuff like mod6 really funny to run when your friend got the wops n banishers, smiters going for him... thank god for the wop nerf thou!