Monk DPS has a bad wrap?

[Lerincho]

I don't think people intentionally want to be the gimps of the party -- I think you find yourself there and then throw up redundant/useless buffs while pumping out weak dps and call it "support" so you don't have to reroll quite so soon.

actually i have been told not to reroll my monk because of his EFFECTIVENESS. what my monk brings to the party has always been a benefit, never a liability. Come to Argonnessen and back your claims if you feel that my monk so gimped compared to anything you have. I will enjoy having your soul stone in my backpack until I have cleared the entire shrine area.

[Mobeius]

actually i have been told not to reroll my monk because of his EFFECTIVENESS. what my monk brings to the party has always been a benefit, never a liability. Come to Argonnessen and back your claims if you feel that my monk so gimped compared to anything you have. I will enjoy having your soul stone in my backpack until I have cleared the entire shrine area.

QFT, cant rep ya... LOL wish I could, Aren too.

[Delt]

I disagree completely, what other class can dual weild 2d8 weapons with full str damage with full compliment of swings, hasted, wind haste, and bonus haste for unarmed AND change out the effects of what ever they desire (ergo Holy and Greter Bane, or Maladroit and Weighted. Not adding the fact they can enhance those attacks further with 12 Damage 3D6 acid on crit every 6 seconds?

Not counting "support" function.

Wow...that's some "killer damage" every 6 seconds... And weighted too (that doesn't enhance SF)? Awesome, no other classes have access to those weapons. I guess I really didn't think this through.

Being able to take care of your own with crazy ac/saves/hp and soon dr10 epic, self healing, rez, buffs, etc all the while of holding your own in melee, cleaning up trash and pickin up after others (not to mention your soul stone, trolling guy) does seem pretty gimp. All these abilities take for granted, in the background, ya know gimp style. Stunning and vorping mobs left and right, self sufficent, being untouchable, putting out decent dps, picking up slack of trolls... average day in the life of a monk.

Easy there turbo...

Sweet. Your monk is specced for soul stone gathering - that's pretty useful I guess. Did you also take the enhancements in door blocking?

actually i have been told not to reroll my monk because of his EFFECTIVENESS. what my monk brings to the party has always been a benefit, never a liability. Come to Argonnessen and back your claims if you feel that my monk so gimped compared to anything you have. I will enjoy having your soul stone in my backpack until I have cleared the entire shrine area.

Nice. Looks like you took the same enhancements as Maegin. Killer bro.

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I won't participate in such a silly back and forth. If you think your monk is useful, while labelling his contribution to the party as "support", more power to you gim...I mean, guys.

[Lerincho]

Wow...that's some "killer damage" every 6 seconds... And weighted too (that doesn't enhance SF)? Awesome, no other classes have access to those weapons. I guess I really didn't think this through.



Sweet. Your monk is specced for soul stone gathering - that's pretty useful I guess. Did you also take the enhancements in door blocking?



Nice. Looks like you took the same enhancements as Maegin. Killer bro.

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I won't participate in such a silly back and forth. If you think your monk is useful, while labelling his contribution to the party as "support", more power to you gim...I mean, guys.

Come to Argonnessen, I will enjoy carrying you on my back because you'll be in the backpack.

[Thanimal]

FWIW, I am a number cruncher, and I've tried really hard to find some magic combination where a mostly-Monk can get DPS matching the top builds. And I have failed. Best I found was WF (for PA enhancements) with a heavy Fighter "splash" for DPS-oriented feats, more STR, and Haste Boost. Then add in a Rogue level for +6.5 Sneak attack, which I assumed was always on. Then I assumed +3d6 handwraps (which don't really exist except Greater Bane), unlimited ki, and optimal button mashing to maximize ki strikes (also grossly optimistic). And I used the faster base attack rate and higher base damage of handwraps.

End result was a "tolerable" 80%-ish of Monster DPS. With more realistic assumptions it's probably less. Surrounded by random builds, this can lead in kills. But it's far from optimal in a DPS role.

Worse yet, getting there required giving up a lot of what makes Monks seem worthwhile -- AC and saves were both only "OK." If you set the bar at 80% of Monster DPS, then you can get much better defenses as a Ranger.

A Halfling STR Monk is pretty similar. Gives up some STR and the PA enhancements, but has the extra racial sneak attack. Under optimal circumstances it can deal a touch more DPS (still the same rough 80%-ish, though), but realistically probably less.

It's always possible I've made a mistake (more likely several!), but as far as I can figure, the Monk DPS rep is accurate.

The rest of what Monks bring to the table has highly subjective value. You may love it or you may find it useless. I can't help you on that part.

[QuantumFX]

That's absurd.

Well, at least one finisher is based off CHA.
LINK

Shining Star
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Usage: Active
Target: Foe, Directional, Breakable
You use the combined power of Earth, Wind, and Fire to set up harmonic vibrations within your enemy that force them to dance. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC 10 + Monk Level + Charisma mod)

And just in case you’re too young to get the joke: LINK

[Lerincho]

<snip>.

thanks. none of us are claiming to be the gods of DPS, just stating factually we can hold our own, and not a drain on the party as some would have you believe.

[rimble]

And just in case you’re too young to get the joke: LINK

Yeah, was gonna say, I thought that was a Compendium joke...?

[valorik]

Well, at least one finisher is based off CHA.
LINK



And just in case you’re too young to get the joke: LINK

IS that real?!! if so that is awesome! Though I doubt it, but why is there an official game entry?

[Aerendil]

^^ It seems to be real, yeah. It's in the compendium and is listed as one of our level 20 abilities.

However, I haven't heard anyone mention it with regards to testing on Lammania.
And, for the sake of continuity, I feel it should be changed to WIS-based.

Stunning Fist = DC of 10 + 1/2 monk level + WIS mod, and may eventually benefit from weighted equipment (up to a +10 bonus).

It seems silly that a level 20 ability may end up with a lower DC than Stunning Fist, yet does a similar effect (i.e. removes a target from the fight).

[Mobeius]

It's always possible I've made a mistake (more likely several!), but as far as I can figure, the Monk DPS rep is accurate.

The rest of what Monks bring to the table has highly subjective value. You may love it or you may find it useless. I can't help you on that part.

I never said, nor will I say, that monk DPS is the best DPS, I am saying that monk DPS from other attacks factored in not usually thought about as well. I would say Strike of the Enduring 2 (and soon 3) is great additional DPS on top of your own monk DPS. Then add the support funtion of a monk by other things buffs/debuffs and their value to a raid or group is grossly underestimated and ineffictiveness exagerated beyond belief.



I am not even going to respond to Delt anymore.

[Mobeius]

Well, at least one finisher is based off CHA.
LINK



And just in case you’re too young to get the joke: LINK

Really? thats great LOL, I completely get the name and description LOL. showing my age a little I guess. but that rawks LOL.

[QuantumFX]

IS that real?!! if so that is awesome! Though I doubt it, but why is there an official game entry?

The compendium info is supposed to be parsed from the DDO game files. It wouldn’t be the only monk finisher named after a song. LINK

[Thanimal]

thanks. none of us are claiming to be the gods of DPS, just stating factually we can hold our own, and not a drain on the party as some would have you believe.

Np. Hope it was relevant.

If anybody is really saying a good monk is a "drain on the party" then I label them as silly. Monks are very self-sufficient, so very hard to be a liability.

However, that's not usually the decision to be made. If the choice is between running with 5 and adding a Monk, then adding the Monk will almost never be a bad thing. But if the choice is between adding a Monk and adding a Ravager, Monster, Exploiter, intimitank, or other "known good" melee, then it's a different story. In my opinion, in most cases, the Monk would be bringing the least net utility to the party out of those choices.

So that's the "problem" in my mind -- it's not that the Monk is some ubergimp who destroys your party. It's that if you're looking for the best party you can manage, it usually won't include any builds that are mostly Monk.

Obviously, this is a very elitist way of describing the situation, and it's not what I actually do in practice. In my own guild, we have Monks and I will *always* invite them to join me. And I don't think I've ever rejected a Monk from a join request. (Hm, I may never have rejected anyone....) But personally I derive a lot of enjoyment from optimal building, and I haven't yet found a mostly-Monk that fits that criteria.

[Aerendil]

The compendium info is supposed to be parsed from the DDO game files.

Yeah :/ Just seems, I don't know, redundant given that we already have 2 abilities that render an enemy helpless (QP and Stunning Fist). Now they've added a third, but changed the effect and the attribute modifier. Silly, IMO.

I'd have much rather had something that allowed burst dps, such as a "ki blast" attack which translated ki directly into damage (even perhaps at a 2:1 ratio) and wasn't subject to DR. Maybe even make it a ranged attack, subject to a to-hit roll.
/shrug.

That new ability just seems... meh to me. Aside from the name, of course

[rimble]

I never said, nor will I say, that monk DPS is the best DPS, I am saying that monk DPS from other attacks factored in not usually thought about as well. I would say Strike of the Enduring 2 (and soon 3) is great additional DPS on top of your own monk DPS. Then add the support funtion of a monk by other things buffs/debuffs and their value to a raid or group is grossly underestimated and ineffictiveness exagerated beyond belief.

But your thread was inquiring about Monk DPS. Thanimal has proven himself to be pretty reliable with his analyses in the past, and I trust his optimal 80% DPS of The Monster figure. That leaves us probably realistically around 70%, and note he did assume optimal use of strikes and such, so your SotE's were accounted for.

So we're starting at 70%, strikes and all.

Where do we go from there? Reduce the enemies AC a bit...does it matter much on the Raid boss with all those Bard buffs up and most everyone already getting flanking? Maybe on Elite (if you can even land it then), and maybe for some poor Low Hit builds, but most likely not much. Doesn't matter much on Normal, can't really land it on Elite.

On the flip-side, does +2 ToHit from Walk of the Sun help much...maybe, hard to say, probably not a whole lot on Normal. Definitely on Hard and Elite though, this is a good one, always.

Aligning the Heavens, has it ever mattered to a caster? I don't know, I think they usually can't even tell I dropped it on them. This is really hard to assign a value to.

Blur is easily covered by someone else.

The 1d2 retributive healing is cute, but MCLW's are being dropped on the party, overshadowing any actual effect it has.

So, we're still at 70% DPS...at least (hopefully) we're not taking a lot of damage, so at least not being a direct-Heal sponge on the healers...but everyones already getting MCLW's dropped on them anyways, so everybody taking a little damage is okay anyways.

I dunno, I'm still at 70% DPS.

However, that's not usually the decision to be made. If the choice is between running with 5 and adding a Monk, then adding the Monk will almost never be a bad thing. But if the choice is between adding a Monk and adding a Ravager, Monster, Exploiter, intimitank, or other "known good" melee, than it's a different story. In my opinion, in most cases, the Monk would be bringing the least net utility to the party out of those choices.

[Drfirewater79]

I have two mains

1) Hacknslash = dual weilding (ac 49-55 when buffed depending on what i have at the time) lightning III dwarven axes ...(cause the 600 points every now and then still makes up for the 15 dr i lose per hit by far usually hit 3-5 times on harry per fight)

2) Confusious = handwrap or dual weilding kamas(no lightning III yet ... YET) wind stance (ac 64-80 depending on buffs and palidan closeness) using handwraps +2 shocking Burst handwraps of greater lawful outsiderbane ...

while its true hack does more DP per hit his attacks are easily half that of my monk per second

so if confusious had greensteel handwraps (which we dont have yet) he would out DPS even the best barbarian two hander cause of frequency of lightning strikes based on a per hit ratio of chances.

put lightning III aside and with a weapon with same properties and thus not breaking DR damage is the same until crits per second .... and if i am feeling generous i am using malidroit bone breaking against mobs so that those fighter types can steal my kills with auto crits.

Monks are the single greatest support fighters in the game .... only think close is tempest rangers using dual weilding weakening enfeebling or wounding puncturing weapons and really they should be nerfed a bit cause everyone is starting to splash 6 ranger into there melee types making there attack speed equal to monks

I have seen lots of 6 ranger 3 pali rest fighter dwarven dual weilders these days ... even i am thinking of respecing hack (cause respecs are coming soon) to take tempest with my lightning III's.

Over all monks are under rated because there are so many bad monks in DDO and they see them and think "that is stupid"

if you know what you are doing monks are awesome and should be at least one in everyones play list.

But they are hard to build well and require lots of thought and maybe a couple re rolls ... i am lucky with confusious i never had to re-roll but that is cause i knew what i was looking for to begin with

i went straight dex and wis

ended up with 38 dex 28 wis with no exceptionals from Shroud (+1 exceptional wis on DT armor)

only problem i have is not enough slots for raid equipment cause i need +6 dex +6 con chattering ring +6 wis thranes goggles resistance 5 cloak (until i can get it onto my DT armor)

right now i often have to decide between chattering ring and con item but think i am gonna craft wis 6 boots to force me to not use my madstones for special power ability.

P.S

dont forget about halfling guile and thranes goggles i do an extra 16 points of damage per hit against harry which makes up for the dr

[QuantumFX]

Yeah :/ Just seems, I don't know, redundant given that we already have 2 abilities that render an enemy helpless (QP and Stunning Fist). Now they've added a third, but changed the effect and the attribute modifier. Silly, IMO.

I'd have much rather had something that allowed burst dps, such as a "ki strike" which translated ki directly into damage (even perhaps at a 2:1 ratio) and wasn't subject to DR. Maybe even make it a ranged attack, subject to a to-hit roll.
/shrug.

That new ability just seems... meh to me. Aside from the name, of course

Due to the design of the feat I have a feeling that the dev that coded it wasn’t thinking about the players. More than likely it was a way of getting back at the guy who was humming Smashmouth all day during the development of the monk class.

Though they could always change the DC to 10 + Monk level + CHA mod to give it some punch.

[Aerendil]

One other thing I should mention, right now our fists are treated as "magic" (level 4), "lawful" (level 10), and "adamantine" (level 16), which... does nothing for us, really. Our handwraps are already magical 99% of the time (they're "magic" in PnP because Monks didn't use handwraps!!), so the level 4 ability is completely redundant.

If Turbine changed the "magic" or "lawful" properties to, say, "good", and "adamantine" to "transmuting" instead, that would solve 99% of our DR problems.

[Mobeius]

But your thread was inquiring about Monk DPS. Thanimal has proven himself to be pretty reliable with his analyses in the past, and I trust his optimal 80% DPS of The Monster figure. That leaves us probably realistically around 70%, and note he did assume optimal use of strikes and such, so your SotE's were accounted for.

So we're starting at 70%, strikes and all.

Where do we go from there? Reduce the enemies AC a bit...does it matter much on the Raid boss with all those Bard buffs up and most everyone already getting flanking? Maybe on Elite (if you can even land it then), and maybe for some poor Low Hit builds, but most likely not much. Doesn't matter much on Normal, can't really land it on Elite.

On the flip-side, does +2 ToHit from Walk of the Sun help much...maybe, hard to say, probably not a whole lot on Normal. Definitely on Hard and Elite though, this is a good one, always.

Aligning the Heavens, has it ever mattered to a caster? I don't know, I think they usually can't even tell I dropped it on them. This is really hard to assign a value to.

Blur is easily covered by someone else.

The 1d2 retributive healing is cute, but MCLW's are being dropped on the party, overshadowing any actual effect it has.

So, we're still at 70% DPS...at least (hopefully) we're not taking a lot of damage, so at least not being a direct-Heal sponge on the healers...but everyones already getting MCLW's dropped on them anyways, so everybody taking a little damage is okay anyways.

I dunno, I'm still at 70% DPS.

Oh I a not doubting his ability and I appreciate his input, really I do, its just that things are udner estimated in value.

Like the healing curse thing, you think its "cute" you dont realize how much it actually heals you until u see it. I think when mod 9 comes out and people see the flurry of 1's and 2's fly up their screen when they are hitting mobs they will realize healing curse is a lot better than think. Especially when healing curse effects Harry and Sally.

Give you an idea. on Sorjek in SOS, with his Blue shield up, my Monk, can fight him and not take any damage. I think that has to do with Clever Monkey too and Healing Curse.

I mean people dont keep out bards or clerics because their melee DPS is lacking right?