DDO And PnP 4th Edition

[Roziel_Longblade]

MT does not lose caster lvls if it uses Practiced spell caster. MT does lose the top spell lvl but those few casts of 9th lvl spells are just that - few uses. If MTs really need a 9th lvl spell, they can buy a scroll.

I also have to say you guys have some mighty nice GMs who always let casters go back and get their nights rest to be at full power for every encounter.

[RictrasShard]

Someone's sarcasm detector is broken. Come on now, could I have really been more over the top there?

I, for one, find it difficult to tell.

To Rictras:

+6 to hit is 30% chance to hit. Given that your base chance to hit is considerably lower than 125% it does indeed lower your accuracy. In fact since your accuracy is around 60% you do lose half or more.

It is extremely rare for a character below the epic levels to have a +6 weapon. By that time, your character's BAB alone is at least +10, before you add on all the other bonuses a character of that level would have. If your character is lucky enough to have a +6 magic weapon at that point, the bonus is nice, but hardly essential.

Identify is absolutely useless for catching the cursed items. See, if you had read the spell you would know it says something to the effect of 'To Identify an item, you must attempt to use it normally.' Well, cloaks are normally worn. It even cites this sort of thing as a specific example. And if that's a Cloak of Poison, you die. Identify or no Identify, you find out you got the poison cloak when someone drops dead from trying it on.

I was partially mistaken there. It has been so long since I've seen a DM use the unaltered form of Identify, I'd forgotten it was like that. Most use a less harsh version of the spell that was in an old edition of Dragon magazine. As for the Cloak of Poisonousness, that is such a rare item that in 15 years of playing first edition, and scores of modules I have read, I have never seen it mentioned or put into use.

Of course, you are neglecting to notice that the Identify spell, as I pointed out, is just one way of many to figure out the properties of a magic item.

If the ref is discouraged from counting a crazy roll, why not just set the system up so the crazy roll can't happen?

Because it is pointless to add many pages of complicated charts and rules when you can just make a common sense suggestion. If the players don't have common sense, all those extra rules aren't going to do a thing to help their game.

3.5 does not have anything like that. 3.0 had DR (large number)/+x which is kind of the same thing but weaker. The closest 3.5 does to that is... DR/Magic. Wow. If for some reason you don't have a +1 weapon a 1st level spell will get you one for long enough to deal with it.

Now had you cited the various weapon special properties as an example you'd be onto something. But you didn't.

I looked through the 3.5 Monster Manual to find a monster that can only be hit by magic weapons. I didn't even make it past the A section before I found one, the Allip.

As you didn't try to refute the other parts of my post, I presume you concede the point.

[timberhick]

Anyway, the problem I see is that 3.5 (and some earlier versions) was complex for a reason, it was trying to create rules to emulate how your character would interact with the rpg world in a believable and consistent manner. 4E threw most of that out the window to create a simple combat and leveling system with little regard either for why anything worked the way it did or how that impacted things in non-combat situations or even doing non-standard things in combat.

Wha? believable and consistent manner you say of 3e?
Lets see fighter and ranger adventured together for 20 years going from level 1-20 together. After watching his ranger friend for those twenty years that fighter still could never figure out how the ranger did all of his amazing things like identifying plants, knowing which plants were edible, what a bear track looks like, and on and on.

Or how about this. Did you know the Fighter skill list is perfectly made to be a professional baby sitter or day care center worker.
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb(so you can play on the monkey bars and jungle gym with the kids) , Craft (fingerpainting, macaroni faces), Handle Animal (feeding the fish, petting the occasional dog), Intimidate (need to get rid of those bullies or use your angry face on a baaad child), Jump (hopscotch), Ride (seesaw, piggyback ), and Swim (pooltime).

Why can't a player use a magic item of a higher level then he is?

Guess you never actually played the game then.

Why do players "forget" earlier powers once they reach a certain level? Why is there no attrition or any effect that can't be reset in a day at most? What happens if I want to craft something, make a magic item or research a ritual? These just seem to be a few things thrown out either in the name of simplicity or because the system designers didn't trust either the players or the DM.

You upgrade your abilities
why do you need one?
you craft something, why do you need to roll some dice in order to craft something?
You make a magic item, done
spenmd the oney on researching the ritual, done
These things are still there you just ignored them.

But just what does having Craft: Bowyer really do for a character? Does this skill somehow add depth? Does putting points into the skill somehow make the player a better player for doing so?

[timberhick]

I didnt say either of you were wrong for liking 4E but for me and the people I play with 4E isnt fun and all characters feel the same, I will say I am the youngest person playing with my group by half(I dont get to play much) but I enjoy 3.x and even more I like 1st and 2nd edtion, we are going to try the hackmaster soon and that looks pretty cool to me.

I haven't seen that and from my point of view it is completely the opposite.

[Soulken]

I haven't seen that and from my point of view it is completely the opposite.

I have no idea what you just said.

[DoctorWhofan]

Some days ago i began to read the official books of PnP 4 edition. All the stuff (classes,races,feats,skills,etc) seems awesome. My opinion is that DDO should follow the updates of PnP as close as possible. I would like to hear some opinions about this transition in PnP and the consequences to DDO.

<<DEEP BREATHS>>

NO!

Disagree completely. It is my opinion that 4.0e is nothing more than a money-grab and has resulted in an abomination hardly recognizable as DnD.

This is, of course, only my opinion.

+1 Rep Asp!

Oh boy. You have opened a real can of worms here. You might wish you had been more careful.

Seriously, the DEVS have spoken on this and the players have too, but I am sure the discussion will resume. A quick search will reveal a ton of posts on it.

Happy hunting!

Dex was here.

Can ofWorms is an understatment

No, it's not. It's fact, and is shared by a VAST majority of intelligent life forms on the face of this planet.

EDIT: He also wanted to hear consequeneces. The consequences of updating this game to 4.0 will be that every single person with an IQ above 80 will leave this game faster than a fat man can eat a twinkie.

Ye! INT score ROCKS! +1 REp to you!

And so it begins... ROFL.

Dex was here.

YUP!

[timberhick]

I have no idea what you just said.

you said "I didnt say either of you were wrong for liking 4E but for me and the people I play with 4E isnt fun and all characters feel the same"

For me it has been the opposite. When I played 3e the characters all felt the same. After playing a couple different campaigns/adventures people stuck to what worked in their minds and never varied far from those assumptions. No matter who I played with variety was minimal the characters ended up being very cookie-cutter. With 4e, so far, there are so many options for every character class that originality is still strong.

[Soulken]

you said "I didnt say either of you were wrong for liking 4E but for me and the people I play with 4E isnt fun and all characters feel the same"

For me it has been the opposite. When I played 3e the characters all felt the same. After playing a couple different campaigns/adventures people stuck to what worked in their minds and never varied far from those assumptions. No matter who I played with variety was minimal the characters ended up being very cookie-cutter. With 4e, so far, there are so many options for every character class that originality is still strong.

..
Thats the nice thing about gaming we can all chose what we like and have fun and thats what counts. v

[SquelchHU]

It's all about maximizing things in pen and paper for you eh? I understand now. Pen and paper is about improving your character, but also about playing the role a character and the choices that character would make.

Anyways, I dont think you're worth listening to. Especially with your extremely arrogant and holier than thou tone. Goodbye.

You argued that MT makes your character more versatile. I illustrated how it does the opposite. You don't get to hide behind some sort of 'real ROLEplayer' tag when you are proven wrong. Either the MT has 'unmatched versatility' and you are right, or there are one or more things that equal or exceed its versatility and you are wrong. You don't get it both ways and as the latter is true, you are wrong.

Hold on.
Nobody implies that Mystic Theurge or Eldritch Knight were less fun to play. Initial statement was that they both are inferior to pure casters in terms of raw firepower. If you want to argue with that, don't mix roleplaying aspect in.

MT could become powerful at higher levels with some bizzare multiclass (i.e. Apostle of Peace or Ur-Priest) and via exploiting divine meta cheesyness but with the same amount of powergaming you can create wizard who shatters the earth with a move of his finger.

At which point it would be the Apostle of Peace or the Ur-Priest salvaging the Mystic Theurge, which still does not reflect well upon the MT.

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Mystic Thurge sucked. I have to disagree with that 100%. It is one of the most dominate PrCs in 3rd edition. I can only assume that you did not play one, or that you never really invested the time needed to play one to its potential.

The great thing about D&D is that campaigns vary and what may be good in one may be great in another. However I still have not seen a campaign world where Wiz dominates MysticT.

Then you either haven't seen a campaign world at all, or you have never seen a competent wizard. Just the fact the wizard will always have higher level spells beginning at level 3 makes him automatically both more powerful and more versatile.

You want to talk dominant PRCs? Here are some ones that actually boost the power of full casters instead of detracting from it:

Arcane:

Incantrix.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
Archmage (sometimes).
Master Specialist, in the right build.
Malconvoker if done right, for a summoner. This one is borderline.

Divine:

Planar Shepherd.
Radiant Servant of Pelor.
Church Inquisitor.
Planar Shepherd. Yes I did list it twice. It is that good.

I may be forgetting some, but MT does not even come close to making that list. It is a weak class that makes you and your character weak both.

And I stated that the Mystic Theurge (MT) could be very versatile... to which I was told that a pure would be more versatile. I cannot see how. A Pure would be more powerful in one or more aspects, but more versatile?

Wizard wants to heal... can't. MT can.

Cleric wants to haste/invis/displace... can't (in most cases). MT can.

I'm not saying that in a pure sense they are stronger, but I am saying that they can be as strong, or even moreso through judicious use of their versatility.

I was also trying to point out the fact that in pen and paper, it's not always about maximizing every single point to your maximum advantage. Ever hear of "optimizing the fun out of it". Well I find that adage applies sometimes when you try to maximize everything to its fullest... not for the sake of that it makes sense with the character, but just for the sake of having the most power you can possibly get.

Hope that made sense.

All full casters can cast off all other full caster's lists. That's why they're all about the same power. And it has nothing to do with not getting 9th level spells until level 20, if then.

I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out why, but here's a hint: It's all core only.

There are also two other core only ways a wizard can heal people, and this neat thing called domains that gives clerics a few spells from other lists.

Now I could just spell all this out for you, but given your lack of knowledge about 3.5 it would do you some good to do your research. It would also stop all the non sequitor arguments.

MT does not lose caster lvls if it uses Practiced spell caster. MT does lose the top spell lvl but those few casts of 9th lvl spells are just that - few uses. If MTs really need a 9th lvl spell, they can buy a scroll.

I also have to say you guys have some mighty nice GMs who always let casters go back and get their nights rest to be at full power for every encounter.

Practiced Spellcaster boosts your spell penetration and effects dependent on caster level. It does not actually give you any more spells. Though if your DM was following the rules wrong, it explains why you have came to such wrong conclusions.

Also, the DM doesn't have much of a choice at the matter. Practically, beginning at level 5 the party rests whenever it wants. Any enemy that does not have See Invisibility cannot even find them, and any enemy that does not have some form of Dispel has no chance of getting them out. Technically you could cast Rope Trick before level 5 but it would not last at least 9 hours (8 to rest + 1 to recover spells). Not that it matters, since by level 5 you can go through your requisite four combats a day and still have half power left if you're competent.

As for the scrolls, that's 3,625 gold or more each and every time you want to do it. Doesn't take long at all for that to eat up your allowance for consumable items and start gnawing on your permanent wealth. Given that 9th level spells flat out win combats, the answer to that is 'Often.' Well, unless they're named Meteor Swarm, in which case they just tickle something 10 levels lower than you.

It is extremely rare for a character below the epic levels to have a +6 weapon. By that time, your character's BAB alone is at least +10, before you add on all the other bonuses a character of that level would have. If your character is lucky enough to have a +6 magic weapon at that point, the bonus is nice, but hardly essential.

Way to take things out of context. 'Low accuracy' and '+6 weapons' are obvious references to 4th edition, which 'BAB' has no relevance to. In 3.5 you may very well have 125% accuracy so losing 30% of that may not slow you down. Losing the +6 damage would though.

I was partially mistaken there. It has been so long since I've seen a DM use the unaltered form of Identify, I'd forgotten it was like that. Most use a less harsh version of the spell that was in an old edition of Dragon magazine. As for the Cloak of Poisonousness, that is such a rare item that in 15 years of playing first edition, and scores of modules I have read, I have never seen it mentioned or put into use.

Of course, you are neglecting to notice that the Identify spell, as I pointed out, is just one way of many to figure out the properties of a magic item.

The Cloak of Poisonousness is one of many such examples, and then there's all the less severe curses. Since all the means of finding out what they do requires experimenting with them and thereby setting the curse off on yourself it is still a moot point.

I looked through the 3.5 Monster Manual to find a monster that can only be hit by magic weapons. I didn't even make it past the A section before I found one, the Allip.

As you didn't try to refute the other parts of my post, I presume you concede the point.

Assuming makes an ass out of you and me. Also, Magic Weapon.

Thanks for playing.

A few more things:

4th edition? Variety? Is today opposite day or something? Because I thought it was 'Americans become even more overweight, while everyone else laughs at us' day. You're lucky if the number of valid power options for any given level exceeds the number of slots you can take powers with, and you're lucky if you can grind the mobs down in under 45 minutes, even if you're doing everything you can to speed up combat.

'You must spread some reputation around before giving it to DoctorWhoFan again.'

[RictrasShard]

Way to take things out of context. 'Low accuracy' and '+6 weapons' are obvious references to 4th edition, which 'BAB' has no relevance to. In 3.5 you may very well have 125% accuracy so losing 30% of that may not slow you down. Losing the +6 damage would though.

I did not take things out of context, and I was talking about fourth edition. At twenty-first level, the beginning of the epic levels, a 4th character has a BAB of +10. BAB is a third edition term, you say? Yes, but people still use the term in fourth.

And the +6 damage is not that much of a loss when the character likely has a base damage bonus that is higher than that, and is rolling the weapon damage several times for each successful attack.

The Cloak of Poisonousness is one of many such examples, and then there's all the less severe curses. Since all the means of finding out what they do requires experimenting with them and thereby setting the curse off on yourself it is still a moot point.

The cloak is one of very few such examples, and there aren't all that many lesser cursed items either. And most of the means of finding out do not even require touching the item, let alone experimenting with them.

Assuming makes an ass out of you and me. Also, Magic Weapon.

And yet you still didn't try to refute my points. Looks like my presumption might be accurate.

Thanks for playing.

4th edition? Variety? Is today opposite day or something? Because I thought it was 'Americans become even more overweight, while everyone else laughs at us' day. You're lucky if the number of valid power options for any given level exceeds the number of slots you can take powers with, and you're lucky if you can grind the mobs down in under 45 minutes, even if you're doing everything you can to speed up combat.

Even skimming over the material will show you a large amount of variety. I demonstrated this variety some time ago with the description of my party.

[SquelchHU]

Which is still irrelevant, because enemy defenses progress at the same rate or a greater rate, which means you still go from 60% to 30% or so.

The +6 damage is a very big loss when it takes dozens of swings to kill the mob even with it. Know how people obsess over every little bit of DPS, even small gains like Prayer when fighting portals or Harry in the Shroud? Welcome to 4th edition. That's the whole game. Get your portal beaters.

Ignoring irrelevant tangential points, that are most likely you just pulling something out of nowhere.

The chance of getting a cursed item starts at 1 in 16 and goes up from there depending on what category it is. And there is in fact no way to tell the difference without trying it out, it even specifically tells you this. Given how many items get handed out, about the only way you're surviving is if you can read your DM's mind. Otherwise you will learn the hard way the Computer is not your friend.

Not to mention Identify has another flaw. 'You must Identify the item within 1 hour per caster level'. Don't have enough IDs today? Can't even try.

[Roziel_Longblade]

Praticed spell caster increases your caster lvl. That means it also increases the power of the spells you can cast. I never said it gave you more caster lvls.

If your DM lets you rest whenever and makes the campaign world stop while you rest then you might as well be playing a computer game. Stopping all the time should mean that the villian gets away, the portal gets opened or the outpost gets burned to the ground. A DM that cannot set the pace for an adventure does indeed give casters a big boost. That does not mean casters are that powerful, just that an overly permissive DM is running the campaign. (lol the keep buring down actually did happen in game, with us in the keep, in a rope trick.)

As for your invisiblity theory, wild animals dont track by sight. I doubt any of your arcanes would have been happy in many of the campaigns I have played in.

Back to 4e:
I do think the lack of rules for non-combat actions is a bit overblown. If you want to say you are master chef, you are a master chef. Most 3.5 games would not make you roll to make a meal anyway. It just is not that big a deal.

As others have said, it looks like 4e does strip away a lot of diversity and more importantly feels like a totally different game. 3e and previous editions were looking towards recreating realism, while 4e tries to recreate an MMO. They are starkly different. It makes for totally different game play, gaming styles and for a game that should have a different name than Dungeons & Dragons Fourth Edition.

[SquelchHU]

At which point you've blown two feats to get your spell pen up, and that's about it. How does this prove the MT is not a trap class again?

As stated before, a competent party at any level that can cast Rope Trick can go through their four fights a day and still have at least half power left. So they don't even need to hit the 'rest' button after every fight, though they can if they want. There are also numerous means to trivialize the time spent resting and to trivialize any sort of time limit as a caster. It is not unusual, or even that uncommon to complete 1, 2, or even 3 full levels worth of adventures within half of a single in game week. And that includes research time to learn what you're facing.

Wild animals still can't get in. They can track your scent up to the spot below the opening. They can't see the opening, they can't get in even if they somehow figured out to jump 5-30 feet straight up, and even if wild animals somehow have been randomly Awakened to figure it out... how many animals can threaten a level 5+ party? None of the normal ones can. Some of the dire variety might. But 'random encounter with dire awakened animal who jumps up into your safe sleeping area' is an obvious sign your DM is power tripping because he cannot handle players having actual options (and it is these sorts of people that made 4th edition) and the game changing fundamentally every few levels instead of 'same stuff, bigger numbers'.

There is a very small chance that someone will just randomly walk around with Detect Magic and See Invisibility to notice you at higher levels but by then you've upgraded to the Magnificent Mansion, which is a thousand miles or more away thanks to Teleport rendering it a moot point.

[timberhick]

Which is still irrelevant, because enemy defenses progress at the same rate or a greater rate, which means you still go from 60% to 30% or so.

The +6 damage is a very big loss when it takes dozens of swings to kill the mob even with it. Know how people obsess over every little bit of DPS, even small gains like Prayer when fighting portals or Harry in the Shroud? Welcome to 4th edition. That's the whole game. Get your portal beaters.

Ignoring irrelevant tangential points, that are most likely you just pulling something out of nowhere.

The chance of getting a cursed item starts at 1 in 16 and goes up from there depending on what category it is. And there is in fact no way to tell the difference without trying it out, it even specifically tells you this. Given how many items get handed out, about the only way you're surviving is if you can read your DM's mind. Otherwise you will learn the hard way the Computer is not your friend.

Not to mention Identify has another flaw. 'You must Identify the item within 1 hour per caster level'. Don't have enough IDs today? Can't even try.

As your blathering continues. We start to see just how much your really do not understand about both 3e and 4e. You make my reply to Soulken, "After playing a couple different campaigns/adventures people stuck to what worked in their minds and never varied far from those assumptions. No matter who I played with variety was minimal the characters ended up being very cookie-cutter." even more accurate.

One of the biggest problems 3e players have with 4e, is that 4e is based upon grouptimization and not optimization. That is something they have a hard time understanding for some reason.

I always get a chuckle when people say "3e and previous editions were looking towards recreating realism,"

[Roziel_Longblade]

At which point you've blown two feats to get your spell pen up, and that's about it. How does this prove the MT is not a trap class again?

As stated before, a competent party at any level that can cast Rope Trick can go through their four fights a day and still have at least half power left.

Practiced Spellcaster is not just penetration, it is also spell damage, duration and area of effect. The only thing a MT misses are 9th lvl spells. 4 9th lvl arcane spells is a fair trade for 40 divine spells, Divine metamagic, and 2 sphere powers.

I have no idea where you get this 4 fights a day thing. If every game you play is that structured I think you may already be playing 4e.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Which is still irrelevant, because enemy defenses progress at the same rate or a greater rate, which means you still go from 60% to 30% or so.

The +6 damage is a very big loss when it takes dozens of swings to kill the mob even with it. Know how people obsess over every little bit of DPS, even small gains like Prayer when fighting portals or Harry in the Shroud? Welcome to 4th edition. That's the whole game. Get your portal beaters.

You keep claiming this, but it's absolutely false. I, unlike you, can actually demonstrate this mathematically.

A 1st-level standard brute monster has an average of 35 HP and an AC of 15.

An average first-level fighter has +7 to +9 to hit.

Assume a first-level fighter with 18 strength, wielding a non-magical greatsword, and taking the Weapon Expertise feat.

Finally, please bear in mind that the characters used in this example are far from optimal. A Swordmage paired up with an Avenger or Assassin would deal even more damage, just off the top of my head.
Greatsword: +3 proficiency bonus to hit, 1d10 damage
18 Strength: +4 to hit, +4 damage
Fighter Weapon Talent (2-handed weapons): +1 to hit
Weapon Expertise: +1 to hit

Total: +9 attack, 1d10+4 damage

Using the at-will power Reaping Strike, he deals Strength modifier damage even if he misses.

1-5: miss (4 damage)
6-19: normal hit (9.5 damage)
20: critical hit (14 damage)

Average damage per attack: 8.5
35 (average HP of a level 1 brute) divided by 8.5 (average damage from Reaping Strike) equals (rounded to the nearest tenth) 4.1 rounds for a fighter to drop a monster all by himself, using a nonmagical weapon.

In a standard party (1 leader, 1 striker, 1 defender, 1 controller, and 1 other), the monster will likely be flanked by the fighter and a rogue, ranger, or barbarian, giving a +2 bonus to hit. This means that simply by standing there, the teammate can increase the fighter's average damage output to 8.9, meaning it will drop in 3.9 rounds (rounding to the nearest tenth again). If the teammate actually attacks, well, let's assume an average rogue:

Dagger: +3 proficiency bonus to hit, 1d4 damage
18 Dexterity: +4 to hit, +4 damage
Rogue Weapon Talent: +1 to hit with daggers
Sneak Attack: +2d6 damage

Total: +8 to hit, 1d4+2d6+4 damage

Using the at-will power Piercing Strike, which is a Dexterity attack vs. the target's Reflex, and using the average Reflex of a standard level 1 brute, which is around 13, and factoring in combat advantage:

1-2: miss (0 damage)
3-19: hit (13.5 damage)
20: critical hit (15 damage)
12.225 damage

So, using the average damage per hit of both characters, we get 8.9 + 12.225 = 21.125 damage per round. In addition, the fighter places a mark on the target with each hit, giving it a -2 to hit with attacks that don't include the fighter as a target and allowing the fighter to make a free basic attack against the monster if it tries to move, with a bonus equal to his Wisdom modifier. If he hits, the monster doesn't get to move. Assuming a 12 wisdom (low for a 4E fighter), he will hit on anything but a 1. That monster is very likely not going to escape from the flank in the 1 round of movement it gets before the fighter and rogue kill it dead:

Round 1: both move into flank position, both make an attack for a total of 21.125 damage, which is over half its HP. Monster might try to move away, taking 9.25 (5% miss chance for 0 damage, 5% critical chance for 14 damage, 90% chance for 9.5 damage) more damage and losing its movement unless the fighter rolls a 1.

The monster can choose to shift instead, moving a single square, but the fighter STILL gets a free basic attack with combat advantage, and will only miss on a 1 or 2. Average damage is (10% miss for 0, 85% normal hit for 9.5, 5% critical hit for 14) 8.775 damage.

If the monster successfully moves away, it still takes an opportunity attack from the rogue. Hits on a 7 or better, critical on a 20, average damage 4.625 without Sneak Attack (since he only gets it once per turn).

Assuming it moves away without being hit by an opportunity attack from either player (which is unlikely to put it mildly), it has still taken over 20 points of damage from its 35. Unless it's extremely fast, one more attack will probably put it down.

This doesn't even consider the (very high) probability that the controller will hit it with an AoE spell.

[RictrasShard]

Which is still irrelevant, because enemy defenses progress at the same rate or a greater rate, which means you still go from 60% to 30% or so.

Sorry, being as +6 is lower than +10 or higher, your point is the irrelevant one.

The +6 damage is a very big loss when it takes dozens of swings to kill the mob even with it.

The +6 damage is not that important to someone who is averaging 3(W) damage plus their regular bonuses on those 'dozens of swings'.

Know how people obsess over every little bit of DPS, even small gains like Prayer when fighting portals or Harry in the Shroud? Welcome to 4th edition. That's the whole game. Get your portal beaters.

No, I don't know those people. The people I play with get through our encounters with tactics, not number crunching.

Ignoring irrelevant tangential points, that are most likely you just pulling something out of nowhere.

You mean those irrelevant points where you claimed the first edition rules encouraged the DM to kill the player characters, and I showed you to be wrong? Yeah, I don't blame you for ignoring those.

The chance of getting a cursed item starts at 1 in 16 and goes up from there depending on what category it is.

I'm curious as to how your arrived at those numbers.

And there is in fact no way to tell the difference without trying it out, it even specifically tells you this. Given how many items get handed out, about the only way you're surviving is if you can read your DM's mind. Otherwise you will learn the hard way the Computer is not your friend.

Please point out where it tells us that you cannot figure out the qualities of magical items. Here are some ways I know that can be used to identify them:

Know alignment - A number of magical items, cursed or not, have alignments.
Speak with dead - Cursed items are often found near the body of their last victim. Find out from the victim what went wrong.
Commune - Speaking with the agents of the gods is likely to reveal quite a bit.
Contact other plane - Other worldly beings know a fair amount as well.
Legend lore - Really, this spell was designed for just such scenarios.
Wish - The spell can do just about anything, after all.

I got this from just a quick skim over the spell lists from the PHB. If I had gone over other books, or psionic abilities, or even other magic items, the number of ways to determine the qualities of magical items would have increased that much more.

Heck, I can think of one way right off hand to help determine if an item is dangerous, and it doesn't take any kind of special abilities to do so. You just make a prisoner handle the item, and see if anything bad happens to him.

Not to mention Identify has another flaw. 'You must Identify the item within 1 hour per caster level'. Don't have enough IDs today? Can't even try.

Low level characters do not find magic items very often, so if they rely on identify spells, odds are they will have one available. Higher level characters who rely on identify (which aren't very common, as they will usually have many other resources at that point), will have numerous such spells available to them.

[SquelchHU]

Practiced Spellcaster is not just penetration, it is also spell damage, duration and area of effect. The only thing a MT misses are 9th lvl spells. 4 9th lvl arcane spells is a fair trade for 40 divine spells, Divine metamagic, and 2 sphere powers.

I have no idea where you get this 4 fights a day thing. If every game you play is that structured I think you may already be playing 4e.

If you are using damage spells you should reroll immediately.

Saying that the only thing they lose is 9th level spells is like saying the only thing that Ferrari is missing is the internal components. While true, it really underplays the importance of having your nice looking car actually crank up and go.

4 fights a day is the standard expected number of encounters. It is not as if competent parties need to climb up the Rope Trick after every fight. Though ones that waste lots of spellslots and combat actions doing minor damage might. Anyways. They can if they want, but they have no need to. Even after doing the standard 4, competent parties still have plenty of power left, and could easily do more. And that's just at level 5. At higher levels you can go even longer, such that buffing up and zerging through the dungeon in a very DDO like fashion is both possible and very common. And by the time they finally do retire they've done a dozen or more encounters, often of higher level and still have some power left but not much.

I'm skipping a bunch of irrelevant points.

I'm curious as to how your arrived at those numbers.

Looking at the tables for item generation.

As for items:

All cursed items are true neutral. You know, same as anything else not dedicated to anything. Nice try.

The item may or may not be near its last victim. Even if it is, does the victim necessarily know what happened? Most curses have a time delay.

Wish? You mean the iconic example of DM vs player in 1st and 2nd edition? Yeah, go right ahead and play lawyer with your DM.

Prisoners? Oh, you mean those things where all your henchmen and hirelings and whatever lose a lot of morale for you doing and will betray you at the worst possible time, even though it's a prisoner?

[RictrasShard]

Looking at the tables for item generation.

I rather doubt you counted the magic items in the DMG.

As for items:

All cursed items are true neutral. You know, same as anything else not dedicated to anything. Nice try.

Most cursed items don't have an alignment. Some do, however.

The item may or may not be near its last victim. Even if it is, does the victim necessarily know what happened? Most curses have a time delay.

I cannot think of a single cursed item that works on a time delay. All the ones that come to mind either enact their curse right away, or during usage of the item at some point.

Wish? You mean the iconic example of DM vs player in 1st and 2nd edition? Yeah, go right ahead and play lawyer with your DM.

Most DMs will not twist a wish when the player is merely trying to find out vital information. The ones that do, their campaigns usually are not worth participation.

Prisoners? Oh, you mean those things where all your henchmen and hirelings and whatever lose a lot of morale for you doing and will betray you at the worst possible time, even though it's a prisoner?

The section on henchmen is on pages 34 to 37 of the DMG. There is nothing in there that supports your claim.

[Krag]

Practiced Spellcaster is not just penetration, it is also spell damage, duration and area of effect. The only thing a MT misses are 9th lvl spells. 4 9th lvl arcane spells is a fair trade for 40 divine spells, Divine metamagic, and 2 sphere powers.

That does not changes the fact that you are wasting 2 feats on what any spellcaster gets for free.