Human KOTC pally: pure or fighter splash?

[justagame]

Hi, pally build question from a dumb noob here.

I just hit 1750 with my first toon (a cleric), and have been wanting to roll a 32-point pally for a while now. I previously leveled a drow pally to level 9, then saw that I had made some poor build decisions that would limit end-game fun and decided to re-roll once I hit 1750 favor. But now that I am rolling one up, I don't know whether to stay pure or to splash 2 levels of fighter, and would appreciate some advice on this. For some relevant context, here are my goals:

1. DPS first, but without totally neglecting the ability to mitigate damage when necessary. I am a big fan of taking things down faster before they can do you much harm, but don’t want to end up in the embarrassing situation of being a Pally who ends up the biggest mana drain in the party.

2. Am definitely going THF over TWF. And yes, (sigh) I completely appreciate that TWF provides clearly better DPS. However, THF decision is based on (1) several good high-level two-handers I’ve accumulated, (2) +2 dex tomes I haven’t, but mostly (3) curiosity about improvements to THF in mod 9, and (4) desired playstyle for this toon. I am confident that, specced right (see below), I will be able to dish out respectable enough THF damage that I won’t be a drag on the party.

3. However, I would like to preserve some pally versatility and have at least a serviceable defensive mode (call it ac, dr, whatever – just a damage mitigation mode). Does not need to be max or uber-geared ac, the purpose is not to an unhittable intimitank, just make life a little easier on the cleric for those times when you don’t want nicks from a thousand trash mobs (and perhaps glancing blows in mod 9) to add up.

Other requirements:
Human preferred (better stat versatility and extra feat)
Must be able to hit tier-3 KOTC

Feats I would take as a pureP:

1. Toughness
1. THF
3. Khopesh (for respectable damage when using a shield)
6. PA
9. IC: slash
12: ITHF
15: GTHF or cleave (don’t know which would be better, would appreciate input)
18: extend (mainly for zeal and df)

Feats I would also take with a 2f splash (for a better ac mode):
Dodge
CE

Starting stats would be 17-11-14-10-10-14 as a pure pally, and 16-12-14-12-11-14 as a p18/f2. Both builds would be able to easily hit 30+ str, 22+ con, and 24-26 cha endgame.

So here’s the question: splash or not splash?

If I splash, I get:
Dodge
CE
Tower shield proficiency
(net of +8 ac while in defensive mode, and better damage reduction)
fighter haste boost (for improved burst dps, and yet one more button to click)

If I stay pure, I get:
+16 to each LOH
+6 to base smite damage
Capstone (3d6 vs evil outsiders)
Tier-3 of KOTC 2 levels earlier
Earlier access to zeal and holy sword

Is there anything else I’m not considering? I would appreciate any thoughts on this -- thanks!

[Thrudh]

Splashing two levels as a KotC paladin will only hurt your DPS a little, plus you'll gain a bit of verstility in return...

Another option would be a monk splash. You get the same 2 feats, plus evasion.

However, you lose tower-shield proficiency (you can still use normal shields) and haste boost...

You certainly won't gimp yourself with an 18/2 paladin splash.

[justagame]

Splashing two levels as a KotC paladin will only hurt your DPS a little, plus you'll gain a bit of verstility in return...

Another option would be a monk splash. You get the same 2 feats, plus evasion.

However, you lose tower-shield proficiency (you can still use normal shields) and haste boost...

You certainly won't gimp yourself with an 18/2 paladin splash.

Thanks for your response. I thought about the Monk option, but I had the impression that there would be more synergy between Monk and a high-dex, TWF build than with a high str THF build.

I suppose my main question is, is the fighter splash worth it to me? In other words, is that extra versatility going to make a difference that exceeds the lost slight loss in dps?

And secondly, if I end up going pure pally instead of splashing (and don't take dodge or CE), are there other ways of having a semi-respectable damage mitigation mode when necessary?

[Vorn]

<snip>
And secondly, if I end up going pure pally instead of splashing (and don't take dodge or CE), are there other ways of having a semi-respectable damage mitigation mode when necessary?

Gear, your own spells and abilities (like LoH), friendly casters, and twitch is about it. Elemental resitance/protection/absorbtion, stoneskin, displacement, lots of hp, healing enhancements, various guards, and so on, as well as some ability to get out of the way of things.

My favorite character is a pure fighter--he's much more challenging to play then my str based pally/monk or pally/rogue.

[captain1z]

your a human who gets a free feat already ...... that makes 7 feats you will pick and a buncha granted stuff.
Stay pure. If you need more than 7 feats to be awesome your doing it wrong.

talking only 16th level another 1 by 18th

[Mithran]

If a Paladin is going to splash anything, my favorite is Rogue for UMD and Intimidate.

[Thrudh]

If a Paladin is going to splash anything, my favorite is Rogue for UMD and Intimidate.

Yeah, me too, but then he loses two feats....

I really really can't decide to stay pure with my 16 paladin or go 18/2 paladin/rogue at end-game...

OP, just stay pure paladin for a while... You don't need to take those fighter levels early on... Decide later..

[Angelus_dead]

1. DPS first, but without totally neglecting the ability to mitigate damage when necessary. I am a big fan of taking things down faster before they can do you much harm, but don’t want to end up in the embarrassing situation of being a Pally who ends up the biggest mana drain in the party.

It's interesting to note that when not attacking Evil Outsiders, the HOTD specialty offers better DPS, and the +30% Healing Amplification makes you less of a mana sink without requiring AC-focused gear.

And yes, (sigh) I completely appreciate that TWF provides clearly better DPS. However, THF decision is based on (1) several good high-level two-handers I’ve accumulated

Be advised that paladins are the class whose fighting style should be least influenced by your available weapons, because the Holy Sword spell provides you fine items automatically. Beyond that, you will pull new weapons in the future, and as the level cap goes up it will be easier to get things equal or superior to what you have now.

And probably you know this, but to repeat: The Paladin's damage boost abilities are all biased towards TWF. Divine Favor, Divine Might, Smite Evil, Exalted Smite, Divine Sacrifice, Weapon of Good, and Knight of the Chalice... they're all nearly twice as good with two weapons.

Tower shield proficiency
(net of +8 ac while in defensive mode, and better damage reduction)

Note that you can already use Madstone Shield without needing proficiency, so the AC gained is not as high as +8. Dodge +1, CE +3, Tower +1 = 5.

[Aranticus]

Hi, pally build question from a dumb noob here.

1. DPS first, but without totally neglecting the ability to mitigate damage when necessary. I am a big fan of taking things down faster before they can do you much harm, but don’t want to end up in the embarrassing situation of being a Pally who ends up the biggest mana drain in the party.

2. Am definitely going THF over TWF. And yes, (sigh) I completely appreciate that TWF provides clearly better DPS. However, THF decision is based on (1) several good high-level two-handers I’ve accumulated, (2) +2 dex tomes I haven’t, but mostly (3) curiosity about improvements to THF in mod 9, and (4) desired playstyle for this toon. I am confident that, specced right (see below), I will be able to dish out respectable enough THF damage that I won’t be a drag on the party.

unless you are referring to +5 alignment/elemental of greater banes with appropiate DR bypass abilities, most of the weapon abilities can be replicated with shroud crafting. weapon selection is the least of your worries when making a build, the main thing is how you want to set up the attributes. a thf character need not care about dex but a twf has to have at least 17 dex (non enhancement or tome). if you do not have a +2 dex tome, then probably going thf is a very wise choice as pally is a naturally attribute stretched class

3. However, I would like to preserve some pally versatility and have at least a serviceable defensive mode (call it ac, dr, whatever – just a damage mitigation mode). Does not need to be max or uber-geared ac, the purpose is not to an unhittable intimitank, just make life a little easier on the cleric for those times when you don’t want nicks from a thousand trash mobs (and perhaps glancing blows in mod 9) to add up.

if you want to be a suitable intimitank, then you must be able to at least hit a buffed ac of about 60 in order not to be a mana sponge. the buffs would include your own auras and barkskin pots (or anything you can cast on yourself)

Other requirements:
Human preferred (better stat versatility and extra feat)
Must be able to hit tier-3 KOTC

Feats I would take as a pureP:

1. Toughness
1. THF
3. Khopesh (for respectable damage when using a shield) if you are going to be thf most of the time, an investment of khopesh for using one less than 1/2 the time is not worth it
6. PA
9. IC: slash
12: ITHF
15: GTHF or cleave (don’t know which would be better, would appreciate input)
18: extend (mainly for zeal and df)

Feats I would also take with a 2f splash (for a better ac mode):
Dodge
CE

Starting stats would be 17-11-14-10-10-14 as a pure pally, and 16-12-14-12-11-14 as a p18/f2. Both builds would be able to easily hit 30+ str, 22+ con, and 24-26 cha endgame.

So here’s the question: splash or not splash?

If I splash, I get:
Dodge
CE
Tower shield proficiency
(net of +8 ac while in defensive mode, and better damage reduction)
fighter haste boost (for improved burst dps, and yet one more button to click)

If I stay pure, I get:
+16 to each LOH
+6 to base smite damage
Capstone (3d6 vs evil outsiders)
Tier-3 of KOTC 2 levels earlier
Earlier access to zeal and holy sword

Is there anything else I’m not considering? I would appreciate any thoughts on this -- thanks!

note the capstone turns the pally weapon good aligned. a simple silver weapon will allow you to bypass DR for harry and suulo

[Aranticus]

Note that you can already use Madstone Shield without needing proficiency, so the AC gained is not as high as +8. Dodge +1, CE +3, Tower +1 = 5.

more importantly, if he wants DR, then lorriks champion will be superior with the +25 blocking DR. since its a heavy shield, it will not need a feat thou its 2 ac less than a tower

[jmonty]

more importantly, if he wants DR, then lorriks champion will be superior with the +25 blocking DR. since its a heavy shield, it will not need a feat thou its 2 ac less than a tower

who cares about proficiency for blocking?

might as well go for the defender with the bracers anyways.

edit: plus the blocking dr of lorikk's without a feat or enhancement is 23, not that that is a significant difference.

[Aranticus]

who cares about proficiency for blocking?

might as well go for the defender with the bracers anyways.

edit: plus the blocking dr of lorikk's without a feat or enhancement is 23, not that that is a significant difference.

proficiency doesnt matter when blocking but dex bonus would. 1 more ac if you are in the d20 range can be important

also

my L16 ranger without enhancements or feat has 25 blocking DR. i suspect you have it on a non max BAB toon

[Riorik]

2. Am definitely going THF over TWF. And yes, (sigh) I completely appreciate that TWF provides clearly better DPS. However, THF decision is based on (1) several good high-level two-handers I’ve accumulated, (2) +2 dex tomes I haven’t, but mostly (3) curiosity about improvements to THF in mod 9, and (4) desired playstyle for this toon. I am confident that, specced right (see below), I will be able to dish out respectable enough THF damage that I won’t be a drag on the party.

I'd ask you a question with my own statement. I've been playing DDO for a long time - since about a month after release. Yeah, not a founder, but it's certainly been awhile. I have a pretty good idea what's actually good and what's not good and that definition has changed over the years.

One thing I've encountered is differing opinions on what's good and what's not. Sometimes I'm right and sometimes I've been very wrong.

What exactly do you mean by good THF weapons to use? Just how certain are you that they're actually good? Considering that you seem relatively new to the game (months?), how about throwing up a list of those items.

It's possible that you should re-evaluate your strategy because your premise might actually be wrong.


But on your post as written. Pure Paladin has a LOT of potential with mod9. It's going to have to be your play style but you should seriously consider it.

[jmonty]

my L16 ranger without enhancements or feat has 25 blocking DR. i suspect you have it on a non max BAB toon

ahh, i see. i didn't know BAB was a factor in that. ty

[justagame]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses. On the question of equipment, it's true, I have only one capped character, and it's a cleric, so to me the only 'good' weapons are destruction, symb of stunning, and BB -- but to answer the question, already have shock silver of pg, transmuting, and 1 paralyzer in the bank (mostly great axes, but one greatsword).

But it's much more the dex requirement that pushed me to thf. Have never pulled a single +2 tome, let alone dex, and starting at 16-17 would cost more than I would like in terms of other stats (too many of which are important for pally).

Thinking I will stay pure, I would like to see the potential of a pure pally in mod 9. And if 2hf does become the style I use 90% of the time, may later on respec khopesh out for another feat.

[Aranticus]

Thanks so much for the thoughtful responses. On the question of equipment, it's true, I have only one capped character, and it's a cleric, so to me the only 'good' weapons are destruction, symb of stunning, and BB -- but to answer the question, already have shock silver of pg, transmuting, and 1 paralyzer in the bank (mostly great axes, but one greatsword).

fraid to say all these are what i would consider vendor trash, unless the shock silver is a +5

But it's much more the dex requirement that pushed me to thf. Have never pulled a single +2 tome, let alone dex, and starting at 16-17 would cost more than I would like in terms of other stats (too many of which are important for pally).

that is what i surmise as well. a twf pally will have to sacrifice stats from alot of areas, most people wont build them unless they have a +2 dex tome waiting

Thinking I will stay pure, I would like to see the potential of a pure pally in mod 9. And if 2hf does become the style I use 90% of the time, may later on respec khopesh out for another feat.

just drop khopesh straight it aint gonna help u much