2 handed kensei

[Clawkin]

Has anyone tried out Kensai using a two handed weapon? Or is TWF superior?

[Shade]

2Handed is awesome. An all around superior weapon style to TWF thanks to it's greater attack range, easier aquisition of strong weapons (half as many needed as twf) and overall higher base damage to help you get through DR.

For Kensai it is even better because you can get a very high DC on your tactical feats, and add the chance for them to go off on a multiple mobs at once..

Stunning blow on 3+ mobs at once is quite awesome.

[Monkey_Archer]

An all around superior weapon style to TWF

your oppinion.

and overall higher base damage to help you get through DR.

unfortunatly, DR hurts glancing blows too much for this to be a big advantage.

For Kensai it is even better because you can get a very high DC on your tactical feats, and add the chance for them to go off on a multiple mobs at once..

Stunning blow on 3+ mobs at once is quite awesome.

Has this been confirmed? Tactical feats actually do have a chance to go off on glancing blows?

Remember that TWF gets 2 rolls for each tactical feat, meaning TWF have twice the chance to succeed.

2Handed is awesome.

i do agree with this though ... both my pure kensai and archon are THF.
And they are only effective if you know how to twich attack though.

[Memnir]

Stunning blow on 3+ mobs at once is quite awesome.

Has this been confirmed? Tactical feats actually do have a chance to go off on glancing blows?

My question exactly. If it is indeed confirmed - then my choice between which Kensei to build will be much easier...

[Shade]

your oppinion.

Oh my personal earands boy is here to add a disclaimer to everyone one of my posts. Why thankyou.

Has this been confirmed? Tactical feats actually do have a chance to go off on glancing blows?

I don't talk out of my ass. I always post based on personal expirence. I have stunned 3 mobs at once on Lamannia.

Remember that TWF gets 2 rolls for each tactical feat, meaning TWF have twice the chance to succeed.

Disclaimer: Only if you have GTWF feat.
Counter: Not true in this discussion. It will be higher per swing - as the chance to proc speical effects on 2handed will never be 100%.. But it will never be "twice the chance" as I've said, 2handed can proc on glancing blows.
Situationally:
Single mob: TWF = ~25-75% higher chance.
2 Mobs: TWF CAN stun both, but must be lined up very very carefully. 2handed chance ~1-10%, but doesn't require lining them up.
3 mobs+: THF has a infinetely higher chance.. As it's quite impossible for TWF

Future outlook:
TWF double proc is a known bug as stated by the devs and will be fixed at their discretion.
THF chance to proc is by design.

i do agree with this though ... both my pure kensai and archon are THF.
And they are only effective if you know how to twich attack though.

Your own math has shown THF to be around ~20-30% higher DPS then TWF for Berserkers (dunno for kensai havent looked).. And thats not even calculated things in correctly whichi would bring THF even higher.. Consider twitch adds roughly 40% swingrate.. So 100 -40 +20% = 80% the dps of TWF.. Still very effective consdiering it's many other advantages. So I'd state it as a fine style even for those who cannot effectively do the stepping attacks. Infact for players new to the game who haven't learned it yet, its often a superior style due to the fact they won't have much coin of ingredients to get 2 weapons, so only needing to buy/craft 1 good weapon is much easier for them.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

THF = inferior and in my eyes gimped dps. Roll a TWF, you wont regret it.

[Ryss]

For Kensai it is even better because you can get a very high DC on your tactical feats, and add the chance for them to go off on a multiple mobs at once..

Stunning blow on 3+ mobs at once is quite awesome.

If this is true and intended and proc rate is reasonable then maybe I'll build a THF Kensei (and/or a FB barb).

I am so sick of TWF that it's not even funny. THF is still inferior though.

[Shade]

THF = inferior and in my eyes

Everyone knows how single minded and biased you. Filling every thread with your garbage isn't nessasary. Either add something constructive to the discussion or just remain silent, we don't care to hear your nonsense unbacked biased opinions.

[Ryss]

Everyone knows how single minded and biased you. Filling every thread with your garbage isn't nessasary. Either add something constructive to the discussion or just remain silent, we don't care to hear your nonsense unbacked biased opinions.

He might be a lot of things but at least he backs his opinions with math. Or his soul mate does. Whatever.

The thing is that you don't need a lot of number crunching to see that TWF > THF vs. a single mob. People are too raid boss focused and therefore dismiss THF entirely. In that context the conclusion is true.

In contrast I value beating trash mobs more than the average crowd. That's why I'm happy with my WOPs on my barb. Killing trash way faster equals faster completion most of the time. If THF helps in that regard, cool. If not... No help there. This also partly depends on the upcoming reduced effectiveness of stat damaging. If WOPs stay relatively the same, there is no way I'm going to roll a THF toon. If we'll encounter trash mobs with bazillion HP then WOPs aren't going to help a lot. In that case THF might shine. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

With mod 9 THF vs. a lot of mobs gets better. How better is the question.

[Twerpp]

Hey man. I personally can't wait for this Kensai to hit my guy. I have been playing a max str 16th level WF fighter, THF spec, stunning blow spec for the longest time. I built basically a barbarian with feats and no crit rage... so 2nd rate dps. Then when 2wf greensteels took over, 3rd rate dps. I dont have any illusions about being the #1 raid boss DPS'er by any means. I am excited about the glancing blows, Kensai, and WF greatsword combo, and the fact he will have every good feat on the list. Easily hitting everything even with maxed out WF powatk, weapon procs on not only glancing blows but cleaves of course, and the whole WF glancing blows % should stack with the THF % is that correct?

I haven't followed it so closely because this guy has been my 2nd, no 3rd string hitter for a long time. But I am excited about this, I think once we experience it all, a build specifically set up for it will be very sick.

As far as the negativity and the TWF thing... well, good point, TWF is pretty sick. But the gameplay on THF is very, very fun. Also fairly straightforward. Diablo barbarian style slash,chug,slash,chug baby! Tackling a ton of mobs with cleaves and sick weapon procs is FUN!!! Lightning strikes, paralyze, and vorpals proc'ing multiple times on one roundhouse swing is FUN!!!! A twf spec barb is hurting for feats, so is a rogue, a fighter not so much and kensai 2wf well we should see a lot of those soon enough. Ranger well they got freebies up the yingyang even if they grab the feats for tempest they got it good. However if you're melee crazy like me you may try a few of them.

Well I ranted a bit long but you get the idea. If you think THF is your style and going to be fun, its viable through all levels of the game and you will have fun. If you want numerically superior, without doing the math I think a very well planned and geared TWF is going to win. Rogue at least. But they are worlds apart in gameplay.

[Shade]

He might be a lot of things but at least he backs his opinions with math. Or his soul mate does. Whatever.

He didn't back anything, or add anything useful - in this thread at all is my point. Neither did you. Or are you his "soulmate" By the sounds of your post, being nearly 100% identical to his words I imagine you are. PS: Thats gross, keep it off the forums.

The thing is that you don't need a lot of number crunching to see that TWF > THF vs. a single mob. People are too raid boss focused and therefore dismiss THF entirely. In that context the conclusion is true.

You do need a brain that doesn't function tho. Monkey archer has already done the number crushing here to prove THF > TWF for single mob DPS so get a clue.

[Twerpp]

Hey thats neat to see. Was he using a program for that? I'd like to see how the fighter compares.

[VKhaun]

You can't use a two hander and a shield... With all those feat picks you should be a capable shield user, swapping from PA to CE and holding up that tower shield when things get hairy or you should have just gone barbarian and gotten the same DC bonuses indirectly through rage strength.

Any Kensai I build will be TWF for this reason.
I can still maintain my weapon's usefulness when I bust out my shield.

[Monkey_Archer]

Oh my personal earands boy is here to add a disclaimer to everyone one of my posts. Why thankyou.

You shouldnt belittle one of the few people that will actually defend THF dps with facts and numbers

I don't talk out of my ass. I always post based on personal expirence. I have stunned 3 mobs at once on Lamannia.

Very interesting... i might have to pick up stunning blow on my kensai now

Disclaimer: Only if you have GTWF feat.
Counter: Not true in this discussion. It will be higher per swing - as the chance to proc speical effects on 2handed will never be 100%.. But it will never be "twice the chance" as I've said, 2handed can proc on glancing blows.
Situationally:
Single mob: TWF = ~25-75% higher chance.

Ok fine.. if i must do the math...
100 THF swings....
100 stunning blows at 50% chance, with 20% glancing blow procs.
50 successful stuns + 10 successfull glancing blow stuns
= 60 stuns per 100

100 TWF swings...
200 stunning blows at 50% chance
= 100 stuns per 100 attacks

100/60 = 66% more stuns with TWF on single target

Your own math has shown THF to be around ~20-30% higher DPS then TWF for Berserkers (dunno for kensai havent looked)..

Not quite.... the refence here, While a bit out dated (the glancing blow base damage was overestimated, but glancing blow procs were not included) only puts THF ~16% ahead of TWF. With more accurate glancing blow damage it is ~20% higher then TWF.

Remeber though, this is best case for the THF... (ie. a max str WF barb with max powerattack that never misses) When you consider errors in twitch skill, possible misses, and missing str buffs they probably come out about equal.


Kensai though are a different ball game....
-They dont have vicious on 100% of glancing blows, they have less strength, and less powerattack. (all of which benefit the THF more then TWF)
-They do however have seeker and damage bonuses that benefit THF more then TWF.
-The capstone + hasteboost make perfect twich skill alot more difficult as well... (i have enough trouble with just hasteboost as it is )
-They do have a very high attack bonus though, which will result in less missing while twich attacking

I dont have the numbers in front of me, but the TWF kensai does do more dps then THF kensai (although i havent checked falchion dps with the new attack speed), but not by that much.


For those interested in real THF dps, check out the Archon

[Twerpp]

Whats the best weapon for THF Kensai? Currently I am running greatswords since it was the best 2 handed slasher available on greensteel at the time.

It would have to be a big margin for me to toss the Lightning II and Mineral II and make new ones.

[Vivanto]

Whats the best weapon for THF Kensai? Currently I am running greatswords since it was the best 2 handed slasher available on greensteel at the time.

It would have to be a big margin for me to toss the Lightning II and Mineral II and make new ones.

The swing rates are fixed come next week so greataxe and greatsword should be now essentially the same. They have the same crit profiles, 20x3 and 19x2.

Unless you're a dwarf, it shouldn't really make a difference.

Tough on a berserker the greataxe is slightly better due to the prc only working on natural 19-20, not on every crit, kensai shouldn't have this problem.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Whats the best weapon for THF Kensai? Currently I am running greatswords since it was the best 2 handed slasher available on greensteel at the time.

It would have to be a big margin for me to toss the Lightning II and Mineral II and make new ones.

For thf kensai greataxe/maul is best, because the expanded crit range takes it to 18-20/x3 so one extra x3 chance. All other two handed weapons only expand by one extra x2 chance.

For thf frenzied bezerker, who will also tend to have more str than kensasi, falchion works out best up until mobs with around 50% fortification at which point it's worth switching to greataxe.

Of course, depending on your race you might end up with racial enhancements, such as an elven kensai fighter might consider falchion just because of the racial enhancements, and a dwarven frenzied bezerker might consider greataxe. It also depends on the fortification of the mobs we're going to see in upcoming mods.

Note that in mod9 the swing speeds of these weapons has been normalised so there is no longer the clear advantage to maul and greataxe that there was before.

Garth

[Monkey_Archer]

For thf kensai greataxe/maul is best, because the expanded crit range takes it to 18-20/x3 so one extra x3 chance. All other two handed weapons only expand by one extra x2 chance.

Not quite true...
greataxe 3x3 crits = 6 extra hits
falchion 7x2 crits = 7 extra hits
greataxe with bloodstone = 126 seeker damage
falchion with bloodstone = 196 seeker damage

I ran the numbers with min2's fully buffed and the falchion does ~3% more dps at 0% fort, and they are about equal at 50% fort.

But it is safe to say that Dwarves are still best with axes, elves best with falchions.

[Monkey_Archer]

Whats the best weapon for THF Kensai? Currently I am running greatswords since it was the best 2 handed slasher available on greensteel at the time.

It would have to be a big margin for me to toss the Lightning II and Mineral II and make new ones.

I would not worry about it...
the crit range benefits the greataxe, but the seeker benefits the greatsword. In the end there is only about a 1-2% difference between them.
Falchions beat both, but do worse on high fortification targets.

[Kambuk]

So where does the sword of shadow come in?

I have made a warforged 2H rogue with a radiance II falchion so far.
Was going to make a Mineral 2 Maul next mainly for sorjek.

I think the sword of shadow beats either the radiance II or a +5 transmuter of puregood on normal vs pit fiend.

Currently i'm going with radiance II falchion vs trash, sword of shadow vs stuff with no DR and a +5 transmuter of puregood against pit fiend etc.

With the mod 9 changes should i go for a Mineral 2 falchion instead?

Kambuk