The Great Con game.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If you spend much time reading build advice on these forums, you will see a huge trend of players advising people that their build “needs more Con.”

The Con-men will post the same advice in just about every build post, and generally Con-trolling how people build and play the game.

If you believe the Con-artists the whole game comes down to how many HP your char has at end game.

In fact almost al respected builds will have end game HP as close second to max DPS being a requirement to even be considered a worthy char to group with. And someone will always be devising the Ghengis Con of all builds toward this end.

So, I would like to dedicate this post to be a Con-ference about high Con and low Con builds, or more correctly I will provide my ideas on why super high Constitutions are not required, if the player will just adapt a little.

I will provide as many Con-traceptives as I can about the subject. And give alternatives to those who do not wish to Con-form to the Gen-con opinions of the Con-artists and their Con-federates.

Don’t get me wrong: I do think that Constitution and HP are important. Especialy for melee heavy builds. Raging Brbs and Tin-Con Intimitanks especially need al the HP they can get. And the high Fort Save is definitely nice when getting agro from certain casters and beholders. More is always better, and chars should try to get all their stats as high as possible IMO.

But to claim that you absolutely need a huge amount of HP to be successful in this game is downright funny to me. (we’ll call these statements Comic-Con  )
Oh, I’m sure many of the Con-men will try to shut me up about this. Tell me my opinions and advice are ludicrous, that I don’t know what I’m talking about. Make me feel the Wrath of Con.
But I intend to exercise my Con-stitutional rights to free forum speech and let my opinions be known!

Ok, on a more serious note, HP are for people who expect to get hurt IMO. But the current popular zerging tactics pretty much ensure that people will get hurt.

The key to not getting hurt, is not getting agro. And yes, you can kill things and can Con-tribute to a party without getting (much) agro.

Mages can use CC spells. And just hang back and wait till they see monsters agro on someone else before casting. Or use Charms before monsters agro on party members to gain some agro free time for the party.

Chars can use stealth, esp rogues to not gain initial agro. And high Diplomacy can let you use your buddies’ HP and Con.

Chars can Range enemies from relative safety. People can block doors, fight with backs to walls…etc. They can body pull or use various tactics to limit the number of attackers that engage them at once.

Heal up between battles. Attack from behind. Back out of the fight and drink some potions. Lots of ways for low HP chars to survive.

Most of my chars have a significant investment in Dex. My newer chars usually have Cons of around 14 +/- 2 for race. But it depends on the build and what I really wanted to accomplish. I will gladly go with a 10 Con if necessary, for a non-melee focuses char.

High Ref save can give you twice your HP from every (95%) AOE spell or Trap in the game.
+ AC, +better stealth skills, + better ranged attack.

Wisdom, adds to Will saves, and Spot skill. If you never get Held or Commanded, you don’t need to worry about not having enough HP to survive the coming beating after you get held…etc.

Cha adds to UMD, lets you buy healing potions cheaper, adds to Diplo to Con-vince monsters not to beat on you…..adds to Intimidate too, but then you prob need that Con.

Int adds to skills. Lets you build up things like Stealth and Diplo to avoid taking damage.

No stat is useless. Getting all traits of your char as high as possible is a good idea of course.

In general, just slowing down in dungeons lets you take less damage.
So, if you want to do something different for a change and build your dream build like you want to…..I say go ahead, it’s certainly playable.

Or you can join the Con-artists and continue to play the great DDO Con game.

[monkeypoopie7]

God that was full of win. I agree though. If you just play as if you only have one life left in pac man, then you can easily survive with a low con.

[Freeman]

Most of your suggestions are good, and it is true that HP/Con aren't the only things that need to be considered when designing a build. However, even the stealthiest character gets spotted. Intimidates can miss, or you can just outdamage someone, drawing aggro. Not every encounter allows you to use the tactics you suggest, nor do they have places where you can back off while you heal up. Many of those times, particularly in raids, the only thing that can protect you are hitpoints. If you don't have enough, you will die. For new players in particular, who often lack the experience to pull off the suggestions you made, those HP will help keep them alive far more than anything else. In the current end-game, there are places where the damage being done to characters is simply too much for low HP characters to endure.

[Thrudh]

If only I could give +100 rep....

Great post Talon...

[BLAKROC]

+1 rep for you

[Xirxx]

+1 CON-larious!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Most of your suggestions are good, and it is true that HP/Con aren't the only things that need to be considered when designing a build. However, even the stealthiest character gets spotted. Intimidates can miss, or you can just outdamage someone, drawing aggro. Not every encounter allows you to use the tactics you suggest, nor do they have places where you can back off while you heal up. Many of those times, particularly in raids, the only thing that can protect you are hitpoints. If you don't have enough, you will die. For new players in particular, who often lack the experience to pull off the suggestions you made, those HP will help keep them alive far more than anything else. In the current end-game, there are places where the damage being done to characters is simply too much for low HP characters to endure.

True.
And I certainly know that low HP can be a handycap.
My greatest fear in this game is elite traps.
Second greatest is the Shroud leader saying "stay in" when the blades are closing.
Absolutely hate the popular "run by all these guys" tactic.
Hate being the only caster and someone expecting me to nuke something (Tor Dragons)
most my chars have a lot of trouble with the LotD force traps too.

But in general, it's not as big a deal as most people say it is.
Especially if the group will just slow down and actually try not to take damage.

Also, at lower lvls, the HP difference form high Con is minimal.
Hopefully, by higher lvls players have learned how to minimize damage they take.
(I realise this is not actually true....but it should be)

Anyway, Thx to all the rest for the Rep boosts.

[baddax]

there is no substitute for hp at end game raid boss situations, especially if you plan to melee with the likes of aristakos.

[Borror0]

Without putting any numbers, it's nothing but feel-good rhetoric.

[Zuldar]

The amount of con and hp you need is entirely subjective based on your build and style of play. Most of the time good tactics can negate the need for a lot of hp, but trying to do some of the Mod 9 stuff on elite without at least 300 hp means you'll probably die a lot.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

there is no substitute for hp at end game raid boss situations, especially if you plan to melee with the likes of aristakos.

True...
Meleeing the Pit Fiend is a major challenge with a low HP char.
I pray for no lag, and do my best to stand on his tail. And watch my own health bar with sweaty palms.

But that is only one quest.

And I'm certainly not suggesting a main tank build skimp on HP.

Just saying that you can get by with less than what most people say you need.
Most people think you need 300min.
I've gotten by with tanks that have about 250ish.
And my Wiz has only 190....and has no fear of getting smacked by the Stormreaver (just not repeatedly)
And my Rog has around 170 and does ok in every quest except the Shroud, and if someone else in the group can hold his agro, I do ok there too.
(but you could prob hear my scream over voice chat when I was the only one on his tail, and he turned around and faced me! )

[SableShadow]

+1 rep! funny post

Ok, on a more serious note, HP are for people who expect to get hurt IMO.

No one ever expects to get hurt.

Con -> HP -> Margin for error.

If you have low margin for error, you must either:
1) Play very well, so you don't make as much errors
2) Take more care, so you don't make as many errors

In either case, stuff happens. Lag, mistakes, whatever.

HPs help you through a lot of those.

[Zuldar]

True...
Meleeing the Pit Fiend is a major challenge with a low HP char.
I pray for no lag, and do my best to stand on his tail. And watch my own health bar with sweaty palms.

But that is only one quest.

And I'm certainly not suggesting a main tank build skimp on HP.

Just saying that you can get by with less than what most people say you need.
Most people think you need 300min.
I've gotten by with tanks that have about 250ish.
And my Wiz has only 190....and has no fear of getting smacked by the Stormreaver (just not repeatedly)
And my Rog has around 170 and does ok in every quest except the Shroud, and if someone else in the group can hold his agro, I do ok there too.
(but you could prob hear my scream over voice chat when I was the only one on his tail, and he turned around and faced me! )

Most of the mod 9 quests will be very difficult on anything other then normal with that amount of hp, you'll need to be careful about getting aggro and where you stand. The orthons hit for 50-80 damage in wide arcs while teleporting and attacking randomly. In part 2 of the new upcoming raid, the shadowfiends hit for 250+ cold damage with no save.

[bobbryan2]

True...
Meleeing the Pit Fiend is a major challenge with a low HP char.
I pray for no lag, and do my best to stand on his tail. And watch my own health bar with sweaty palms.

But that is only one quest.

And I'm certainly not suggesting a main tank build skimp on HP.

Just saying that you can get by with less than what most people say you need.
Most people think you need 300min.
I've gotten by with tanks that have about 250ish.
And my Wiz has only 190....and has no fear of getting smacked by the Stormreaver (just not repeatedly)
And my Rog has around 170 and does ok in every quest except the Shroud, and if someone else in the group can hold his agro, I do ok there too.
(but you could prob hear my scream over voice chat when I was the only one on his tail, and he turned around and faced me! )

And by "depends on your playstyle" you actually mean the quests you run.

If Shrouds are a big part of your end game playing... low HP is stupid. If you like to solo a lot on a sorc... y'er gonna want the HP. If you solo raids especially... you want the HP.

A lot of the people who suggest more and more con are playing extremely high difficulty quests with a limited number of people. Soloing the Stormreaver on elite with 100 HP isn't gonna be a fun ride... and most people on the forums who are making builds are making maximized builds that can withstand the perils of extreme hazards.

Now... if you don't do a lot of that. Suuuure, you can get by on low con. The difference is usually less than 100 hp... and most enemies don't hit that hard.

[maddmatt70]

I just created my most squishy character, Boomsticks currently a level 14 ranger, in a long time. It is a starting 12 con elven ranger and I plan to not have the toughness feat. This character wil not have a high ac, it will not have a ton of hit points, and it will not have a high umd for heal scrolls or the like. It will have evasion, but not a very good will save. The one thing it will have are tons of shroud clickies and items like the firestorm greaves. It is the shroud that actually makes characters like this more viable. Displacement clickies, stoneskin clickies, haste clickies, 45 energy resist items, healing amplification, etc. and the list goes on and on. The negative aspect of the shroud is it very pro power gamer and not very casual player, but that is beside the point.

[shores11]

You almost described my playstyle in full with this post, +1 rep for you. I never let CON dictate my characters, ever.

My rogue capped at level 16 has 190 HP and almost always leads the party in kills or at least all melee characters. I rarely ever take aggro, this is how he roll-plays.

My paladin capped at level 16 has 344 HP and usually never needs healed because he has an AC upwards of 65 + depending on buffs both from self and others. He is an effective melee character, this is how he roll-plays.

My wizard capped at level 16 has 174 HP and using a combination of crowd control and damage I can kill off the determined opponent before he can kill me. He is a very aggresive caster yet knows how to mix his spells to benefit the party well, this is how he roll-plays.

I have other characters that are capped as well but you get the point. I agree with this OP and my name is (see my signature line).

Very nice post again.

[baddax]

True.
And I certainly know that low HP can be a handycap.
My greatest fear in this game is elite traps.
Second greatest is the Shroud leader saying "stay in" when the blades are closing.
Absolutely hate the popular "run by all these guys" tactic.
Hate being the only caster and someone expecting me to nuke something (Tor Dragons)
most my chars have a lot of trouble with the LotD force traps too.

But in general, it's not as big a deal as most people say it is.
Especially if the group will just slow down and actually try not to take damage.

Also, at lower lvls, the HP difference form high Con is minimal.
Hopefully, by higher lvls players have learned how to minimize damage they take.
(I realise this is not actually true....but it should be)

Anyway, Thx to all the rest for the Rep boosts.

IMO the Minimum is 300 hp.
The 2 comments I high lighted in Red are normal everday "expected" events in DDO. If i have 350 hp and the Raid leader says "Stay in for the blades" and i die then most likely it was a lag spike. In which case there is nothing you can do about it.

If you do not plan on running the Shroud or The Tor or many of the end game raids then sure less Hp is definitely acceptable. There are many solo or non raid type builds that do well in 95% of total game content.

Lastly the 300 hp mark will likly increase to closer to 400 once the level cap raises. Due to increased difficulty and the ever fun Grazing hits system.

[baddax]

True...
Meleeing the Pit Fiend is a major challenge with a low HP char.
I pray for no lag, and do my best to stand on his tail. And watch my own health bar with sweaty palms.

But that is only one quest.

And I'm certainly not suggesting a main tank build skimp on HP.

Just saying that you can get by with less than what most people say you need.
Most people think you need 300min.
I've gotten by with tanks that have about 250ish.
And my Wiz has only 190....and has no fear of getting smacked by the Stormreaver (just not repeatedly)
And my Rog has around 170 and does ok in every quest except the Shroud, and if someone else in the group can hold his agro, I do ok there too.
(but you could prob hear my scream over voice chat when I was the only one on his tail, and he turned around and faced me! )

Doesnt he agro randomly in the shroud?
Do you run the shroud with your 250 hp tank?

[Borror0]

Con -> HP -> Margin for error.

If you have low margin for error, you must either:
1) Play very well, so you don't make as much errors
2) Take more care, so you don't make as many errors

Well said.

Though, you forgot option #3: give coronaries to your healers.

In either case, stuff happens. Lag, mistakes, whatever.

In case someone wants to argue he never has lags and never make mistakes, "having bad rolls" and "healer is sleeping at the keyboard" are both included in the '"whatever."

[Twerpp]

there is no substitute for hp at end game raid boss situations, especially if you plan to melee with the likes of aristakos.

I think it's already been proven, this statement is wrong.