New Raid Beaten on Beta!!!!!

[Riorik]

Shroud cost most groups about 20-30 mana potions (shared accross the group) during week 1. By week 2 it was down to something more like 500-1000 Heal scrolls and 3-5 pots, by week 4 it was down to 100 Heal scrolls and 1 pot, now most runs use resources only for convenience. (Elite runs tend to use 10-20 pots)

I expect that it'll drop like that over time.

Let me rephrase and embellish a bit. Not every group, even in that first week, required that much in resources to complete the Shroud. I do think you may be off by a power of 10 for the heal scrolls in week 2 (additionally). I do agree that most good groups only use resources for convenience. I *shudder*, however, as I think about a PUG (it was 80% one guild) normal Shroud that nearly failed part 2 and did fail part 4 last night. They planned early to need Major Mnemonics and oddly only had two or three. They never really understood how weak the group really was and it's not really my thing to tell them. Better to keep quiet and nice.

What I think is - from what I read - I don't know the skill level of the most guild Tower completion but I get the impression they're not noobs and it was mostly a guild run...which gives them a teamwork advantage that might otherwise be lacking for a Lamma-based run. Subjectively, it seems to me that they're using more stuff to complete than the Shroud ever did...and makes me think we should expect 2-5x the supplies usage of the shroud indefinately (for the Tower raid)

Can't really say until my guild is running it on live but I'm expecting it to cost more in general for us too.

Good work - glad you got it done. I really appreciate the key information that seems to suggest an answer to *WHERE* the second half of each of the PrE sets are and the likely nature of the Ring based Crafting. That's really good information.

Some of you doing the hardest stuff ought to start asking for donations in a dedicated thread. I mean, what would it even cost me anyways if I'm just "buying" stuff with the free beta points anyways?

[Mhykke]

So you put the shard the ring and the trophies...
Still there may be hope of a hidden type of upgrade. 2 of the proper imbued shards may do something.

I am sure we have enough medium ingredients to try a few times just to see.

A longshot I was thinking of was that, since it looks like the war trophies replace power cells for imbuing the ring (think horns replacing cells when making blanks)....maybe the war trophies replace powercells for combining medium shards......

Like I said, longshot, but might be worth trying...

[Mhykke]

Mykke and gang... honest answer ... what do you think after having used Store Bought Pots to get you through the tactical development stage of the RAID, did they take some of the challenge of that stage away? From a gameplay perspective, should the pots be adjusted (with timers or something) to keep the challenge level there?

Dex was here.

To be honest, it's hard to say.

Our mana pot usage was exponentially more when it was just 4 of us in there, obviously. When we had close to a full group, it drastically went down. But since we were already in there with just 4 people, we knew some stuff to make it easier...so when we had close to a full group, our smaller mana pot usage was a combination of experience and larger group size.

I don't really know how many mana pots we would've needed if we had gone in with 11 or 12 people right off the bat. I do know that when we were running full at the end there, I would say our mana pot usage was similar to when we beat the shroud for the first time. I know on my sorc, I was chugging pots then too trying to do DPS on the fiend.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

also, I believe the +1 exceptional wisdom bonus was randomly generated from tier 1s and we will get to pick tier 2s (from the imbued shard). until we pull another ring we won't know though

I think it would be very unfortunate if that tier was random. It will lead to people taking one, then wanting the next one because it gives a better second bonus, and that will hurt the ability of casual players to ever see a ring of their own.

[Mhykke]

also, I believe the +1 exceptional wisdom bonus was randomly generated from tier 1s and we will get to pick tier 2s (from the imbued shard). until we pull another ring we won't know though

I really doubt that the +1 exceptional was a randomly generated effect.

[Kiranselie]

also, I believe the +1 exceptional wisdom bonus was randomly generated from tier 1s and we will get to pick tier 2s (from the imbued shard). until we pull another ring we won't know though

I dont think this is the case Tot. I think that it was intentionally wis +1 for rangers because of the spellcasting and what not.


We wont know definatively until we see another ring, but I see them being a primary stat, and exceptional +1 to a secondary stat, then the ability to uprgrade the awesome potential.

I would almost bet that the assassin ring will be something along the lines of Int +6 Exceptional Dex + 1, and the wizard sets to be along the same lines as far as Int +6 then something like Con as the second tier. Just speculation atm, but I think thats how its going to go.

[QuantumFX]

Like I said, longshot, but might be worth trying...

Dooooooooo it!

[totmacher]

I really doubt that the +1 exceptional was a randomly generated effect.

we'll see but I think it is for two reasons:

1) the devs play around with the loot generation a lot. every mod we have a different loot system, srhoud crafting, dt armor, the change from the pulls before that. we have shards also dropping mid-raid now

2) i think it would be a good hybrid system between dt armory and shroud crafting. i think the devs never wanted shroud crafting to be as easy as it is now

[Kiranselie]

we'll see but I think it is for two reasons:

1) the devs play around with the loot generation a lot. every mod we have a different loot system, srhoud crafting, dt armor, the change from the pulls before that. we have shards also dropping mid-raid now

2) i think it would be a good hybrid system between dt armory and shroud crafting. i think the devs never wanted shroud crafting to be as easy as it is now

To address your second point, I would hope the devs would not repeat the failure that is the DT system. If they dont listen to anything else we've all said on these boards, I hope they listened about that.

As an aside, Tot, I seriously think you TRY to make things more complicated than they actually are

[totmacher]

To address your second point, I would hope the devs would not repeat the failure that is the DT system. If they dont listen to anything else we've all said on these boards, I hope they listened about that.


As an aside, Tot, I seriously think you TRY to make things more complicated than they actually are

harder is better

[Mhykke]

harder is better

Stop quoting your boyfriend already.

[totmacher]

Stop quoting your boyfriend already.

you're just mad I stole blah from u!

[Kiranselie]

you're just mad I stole blah from u!

LIES!!!!!
Blah would never "consort" w/ one such as you, you're not even a PWNY!!!!!

[totmacher]

LIES!!!!!

Blah would never "consort" w/ one such as you, you're not even a PWNY!!!!!

i am better than pwny, i am the hamfather... i will call upon you at a later time for services rendered in the new raid

[Big-Dex]

I think this is a very bad argument. You're basically arguing that a raid where tons of damage is outputted is right and fine and we should punish the clerics for being able to push it through. Instead I would like to see an argument for half-puzzle raids with less damage and the ability for clerics to still be necessary for raid healing but not require pot consumption on the order of what I was doing.

Basically what I'm saying is change the raids to be harder in different directions, not the items.

As for your question, I think the raid should be adjusted IF THIS BECOMES A PROBLEM. These opening attempts / completions are not a true breakdown of pot usage in the long-term.

Reasonable alternative Tot.

So what you are saying is that the difficulty is fine in this RAID, but costly for healers.

Without the pretty much endless supply of pots from the DDO Store (or as many as you are willing to spend $$$ or TP on), the tactic stage might have been dragged out a bit or the party would have had to tap their plat bought/quest earned pots to get it done the way you did. No matter, you think the difficulty was right on ... it is just that this type of RAID will take some POTS to learn and refine tactics with.

In light of tihs, I still do have a couple of concerns with the Store Bought Pot usage in RAIDS though (even DPS style RAIDS in contrast to Puzzle Style RAIDS)...

Since quest earned, plat bought POTS can be shared by players, if these were in use, your POT consumption can be distributed across the party. The same is not true of Store bought POTS. These cannot be shared or distributed. If the cleric/caster wants them, he must spend his points/$$$ to buy them. There is a disparity here. I am not sure that making Store bought pots shareable is an effective answer nor am I suggesting it, but the reality of this fuels this next point.

Since quest earned, plat bought POTS are not unlimited, they become a bit more valuable. And since they can also be shared, they are not as easily and cheaply consumed. The AH will tap out pretty quick as it typically does when a new RAID is introduced. Guilds/parties will have to dig deeper into their in game pockets to quaffe pots like you did. The Store bought POTS once again are an unlmited supply (to the degree a caster/cleric wants to drop TP or $$$). This means that this RAID can be tackled quicker by spending real world money in contrast to in game currency. I am not sure how I feel about that. Granted, it is up to the individual party how to roll, but I am not sure we can escape the reality that the use of the Store bought pots helped to solve it quicker. Am I wrong in this?

In total, for the learning stage and solution to this RAID, how many pots would you guys say you drank??? 100? 200? 300? Ball park figure? (I realize you only had 4 when you were starting, but average it out).

Once again, let me throw the disclaimer. I am not asking this to diminish your achievement. I am asking this to understand the impact of the Store on Gameplay and Quest design. I am not sure that the pots are still a good idea as they stand in RAIDS. Good idea for Turbine due to $$$. Good idea for game play. Verdict is not in yet.

Dex was here.

[Big-Dex]

I really doubt that the +1 exceptional was a randomly generated effect.

Have we seen any other alters out there in Shavarath??? Is there a Tier 3 altar out there?

If there is, then perhaps, there is now a fourth tier (if you want to call it that) that can be applied to the rings using large ingredients and potentially including dual-shard recipes. It would obviously be a whole new recipe tree.

But perhaps this is all wishful thinking and you guys got the gist of it. I doubt seriously that this is a random crafing upgrade system. If it is, bah!

Dex was here.

[Mhykke]

Have we seen any other alters out there in Shavarath??? Is there a Tier 3 altar out there?

If there is, then perhaps, there is now a fourth tier (if you want to call it that) that can be applied to the rings using large ingredients and potentially including dual-shard recipes. It would obviously be a whole new recipe tree.

But perhaps this is all wishful thinking and you guys got the gist of it. I doubt seriously that this is a random crafing upgrade system. If it is, bah!

Dex was here.

Nope, just the one altar is all we found, and it's in the explorer area by the entrance.

[Kiranselie]

Have we seen any other alters out there in Shavarath??? Is there a Tier 3 altar out there?

If there is, then perhaps, there is now a fourth tier (if you want to call it that) that can be applied to the rings using large ingredients and potentially including dual-shard recipes. It would obviously be a whole new recipe tree.

But perhaps this is all wishful thinking and you guys got the gist of it. I doubt seriously that this is a random crafing upgrade system. If it is, bah!

Dex was here.

I have personally been over every square inch of the new area, and as it stands in the beta, there are no other alters out there other than the one I used to craft the ring.

[totmacher]

overall ballpark in raid, maybe 500, out of raid 300-500 probably as well. the side quests were rough because we did all of them on elite and multiple times to get people keyed. i know that i at least bought 1k though

[Kiranselie]

overall ballpark in raid, maybe 500, out of raid 300-500 probably as well. the side quests were rough because we did all of them on elite and multiple times to get people keyed. i know that i at least bought 1k though

Again tho, that was mainly because we were trying to get as many people keyed as fast as possible, so a lot of zerging came out of those pots.

The group Blah, Mhykke, and I were in the other night doing the quests on elite hardly used any potions, probably due to the fact she didnt have hardly any

Just saying, the quests can be done rather easily w/out pots once you know what youre doing.