Silly Shroud assignments

[Monkey_Archer]

Put the monk on the ele, he should be able to take it down while others work on their mobs.

/QFT

eles have 100% fort, and are vulnerable to elemental strikes.... theres nothing a monk is better at.

Rogues dps comes mostly from sneak attacks, when they dont have agro... theres nothing a rogue is worse at.

Whether or not the rogue/monk can solo the ele is besides the point

Even if the rogue can solo it, he/she would be better suited for anything else.
Even if the monk cant even touch the ele, he wont likely be able to do much to anything else.

[ghale]

First off it was me and the rogue assigned to the fire ele (Iwas the bard). I was playing a strength based WF BattleBard 30 Str and I have evasion along with GTR ELE bane weapon. I can take down the ele on my own and the leader knew that. He was sent a pm from me. The rogue was there just as back up. I had Prot and resist wands and me and the rogue would have been fine or any other toon down there with me.

The problem was it was his group not yours. You constantly argued with him about every little thing in the quest. As you did with everyone else including me. Here's a few examples. He said take ele to SW not the norm but his group his call. You argues that agter the mobs were already pulled. Ther caster was also assinged to the group and you got into it with him as well during this on where you should be. "you just can't listen or follow directions can you" Is what the caster said to you. At the start of the quest while buffing for part 1. I state I'm not throwing GH I'm just throwing good hope. You say no you need to pass out GH cuz it makes you do more damage to the portal (WRONG!!!!).

My reply no it does not. GH only adds to your to hit & you're already going to hit on a one. GH does not add extra damage but good hope does along with my songs. So you keep arguing the point and I throw GH on a few peeps and it over rides their GH and you clearly can see in the description that it can't add extra damage, only extra to hit. You and the ranger who had no bark, ele resist, ele prot, or poison prot spells or wands (No spells due to level fine. No wands unacceptable) still insist on GH. I state I'm not high enough level to throw it on anything but scrolls and I'm not wasting the scroll just to lose DPS to pound portals.

It was no different when you were in my Shroud run that I was running on my cleric. You demanded True Seeing and I said I'm just going to dispell the portals. You say you need it anyway. I ask why? You say because the casters put blur on themselves. My reply you better not be swinging at the mobs you better be pounding the portals. We have 2 casters they can finger the mobs. You stil insist on a TS. You didn't get it but you went after the mobs anyway.

There is no way you can argue that any melee toon in part one should be doing anything but pounding portals when there is 2 casters. Yet you still did it. So it's hypocritical to cry about not maximizing where DPS goes when you do the very same thing in the part 1. If you truly were of the mindset, maximize DPS no rogues on eles. Then you should be of the mindset maximize DPS, no melees on mobs when we have 2 casters.

The bottom line is this if you dont have the star. Let the leader call the shots. If you want to have some input fine but don't undermine every little thing the leader says. Especially when you make statements on how things work and you're not right about your statement. Few of us know every little in & out of the game. You & I both are one of those that don't. So let the leader do it his way. I don't have a problem running with you. We've ran a lot of quests together and your toons are well built and do the job. I don't think I've ever ran with the leader before so I'm not sticking up for him either. I'm just stating the facts.

Was it the wrong 2nd toon to send down there? Maybe, but he knew I could solo the ele as I ended up doing so it was not a big deal. You didn't know I was capable of soling it he did. So just follow his orders. Trust me I wasn't sent there to be a healbot. I was sent there to babysit as I dished out damage and keep the agro.

Uh What? WOW! Someone is angry and talking to the wrong person.

1. I have no idea who you are.
2. I wasn't on this raid or have no idea what you are talking about.
3. I never ask for TS
4. Too many other points to go over in your post, but really it is funny that you're "stating the facts" to the wrong person.
5. Really someone thought GH added DPS to the portals? well there's another noob for you.
6. Even though your post was a huge failure, I'll still give you +1 for how funny of a rant it was.


Also to address all the people only focusing on the fire elemental...sure evasion can help there...but rogues still do the lowest dps and there is 100% no reason to put a rogue on the earth elemental unless the whole raid happens to be rogues.

[Disavowed]

If that was not you I apologize. We had the same thing happen two days ago and said person was byatching to his guildies that he was going to do a post in the forums. So it seemed logical to assume that you were the one I ran with that said he was going to do a post in the forums to his guildies.

I guess I assumed wrong and again my apologies since it's not you.

FYI I'm not at all ****ed I was just stating the facts. If you look I said maybe it wasn't the best of choines unless you had the facts. I just wanted both sides of the story put out but it was the wrong story so again my apologies.

[ghale]

If that was not you I apologize. We had the same thing happen two days ago and said person was byatching to his guildies that he was going to do a post in the forums. So it seemed logical to assume that you were the one I ran with that said he was going to do a post in the forums to his guildies.

I guess I assumed wrong and again my apologies since it's not you.

FYI I'm not at all ****ed I was just stating the facts. If you look I said maybe it wasn't the best of choines unless you had the facts. I just wanted both sides of the story put out but it was the wrong story so again my apologies.

It's all good .

[Delt]

I keep seeing these thelanis folks post this drivel here. I can't help but think they should rethink their strategy. A rogue is a bad choice because it loses more dps then any other build by fighting the elemental. A ranger, evasion splash builds, monk are all stronger, as are basically all non evasion builds.

Strategy what? It's the shroud. Either ele, it dies last and fast, who cares who you put on it. And who said anything about that being my or Thelanis" strat?

All I said were three things and I'll walk ya through it so you don't get lost again:

- If you build a PUG, I get making safe choices. A rogue is a safe choice for a PUG leader.

- Some rogues rock and can easily solo the ele

- Most rogues suck (especially finessers)

Maybe Khyber just sucks at building rogues, so the whole concept is just boggling your mind? Who knows.

[Aerniel]

Could be worse if they sent the monk

everythings worse when you send the monk

[ghale]

Strategy what? It's the shroud. Either ele, it dies last and fast, who cares who you put on it. And who said anything about that being my or Thelanis" strat?

All I said were three things and I'll walk ya through it so you don't get lost again:

- If you build a PUG, I get making safe choices. A rogue is a safe choice for a PUG leader.

- Some rogues rock and can easily solo the ele

- Most rogues suck (especially finessers)

Maybe Khyber just sucks at building rogues, so the whole concept is just boggling your mind? Who knows.

I think your mind is the one who is boggled by this discussion. It isn't or wasn't a question of can a rogue take down an elemental but the fact that they are the worse choice from a DPS standpoint as neither of the two can be hit with sneak attack damage.

The fire one is a little understandable with evasion but to ask the rogue to fight the earth elemental, instead of another melee, is rather silly. To me it suggests an ignorance on the assigners part of not knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the rogue class. I mean hell we've had 9 months with no content update where by now you should at least know what each class can do .

Hopefully you won't be lost now...

[Aranticus]

Strategy what? It's the shroud. Either ele, it dies last and fast, who cares who you put on it. And who said anything about that being my or Thelanis" strat?

All I said were three things and I'll walk ya through it so you don't get lost again:

- If you build a PUG, I get making safe choices. A rogue is a safe choice for a PUG leader.

- Some rogues rock and can easily solo the ele

- Most rogues suck (especially finessers)

Maybe Khyber just sucks at building rogues, so the whole concept is just boggling your mind? Who knows.

maybe the concept of sneak attack is just mind boggling to you

compare 2 senarios

1: ranger on orthon, rogue on fire ele
ranger gets 10% speed, FE damage on orthon, rogue gets nothing on ele

2: ranger on ele, rogue on orthon (ranger with or without FE)
(a) with FE
ranger gets 10% speed, FE on ele, rogue gets SA on orthon

(b) no FE
ranger gets 10% speed on ele, rogue gets SA on orthon. take note that FE is about +12 dmg when boosted by 10% = approx +14. whereas SA is about +30 to +50 (race dependant. in short dps by sneak > dps by FE

or maybe thelanians just suck at the game mechanics

[JakLee7]

I am still confused as to why they would let a rogue into a shroud???? That kind of thing just doesn't happen on Khyber

[Depravity]

- Most rogues suck (especially finessers)

+1 rep sir, from all my str rogues to you.


In general I'm going to agree with the trend that rogue in a group contributes more than rogue alone, but I have been asked to distract the elementals before, done it, and done it well. I'll admit earth ele I'm so so, but that icy burst qs of greater elemental bane swinging at +20% speed sure does a nice job on fire. I've also been dispatched to act as a fireball catcher for the wizard/sorc working on fire, which is suprisingly fun (lotsa twitchy goodness, especially when the caster is acting like he has to dodge the fireballs himself). Usually my attitude is more in line with keeping the pug leader from getting exasperated, so they aren't making their decisions stressed. It's not the usual thing, but then again, Thelanis shroud runs don't fail for lack of a single character's SA damage, which I'm assuming is the case on some other servers, sinc eyou're protesting it so much.

My dorf-inna-can intimi rogue got told to help hunt down trogs the other day. Considering how much the pug leader kept assuming I was setup along dex build lines, I'm not sure how that was supposed to work, but bouts of acro II portal prepping goodness interspersed with intimmed trogs awaiting the finger of death worked pretty well. I have no idea what a dex rogue would have done beyond acting as initial aggro bait and spending way too much time hunting down trogs that made their FoD save.

[Delt]

maybe the concept of sneak attack is just mind boggling to you

compare 2 senarios

1: ranger on orthon, rogue on fire ele
ranger gets 10% speed, FE damage on orthon, rogue gets nothing on ele

2: ranger on ele, rogue on orthon (ranger with or without FE)
(a) with FE
ranger gets 10% speed, FE on ele, rogue gets SA on orthon

(b) no FE
ranger gets 10% speed on ele, rogue gets SA on orthon. take note that FE is about +12 dmg when boosted by 10% = approx +14. whereas SA is about +30 to +50 (race dependant. in short dps by sneak > dps by FE

or maybe thelanians just suck at the game mechanics

Theorycraft is fine and dandy.

I'd humbly suggest you at Matt get together and track down where I advocated putting the Rogue on the ele's as either optimal or my strat. I seem to recall saying I understand the Safe PUG choice. You know, safe. In game. Not on the forums where number nerds get to pretend everything is a known quantity, throw up strawmen and show off remedial mathematical skills to evidence things people already understand

Some of you kids need to be handheld through posts longer than one sentence, huh?

[Aranticus]

Theorycraft is fine and dandy.

I'd humbly suggest you at Matt get together and track down where I advocated putting the Rogue on the ele's as either optimal or my strat. I seem to recall saying I understand the Safe PUG choice. You know, safe. In game. Not on the forums where number nerds get to pretend everything is a known quantity, throw up strawmen and show off remedial mathematical skills to evidence things people already understand

Some of you kids need to be handheld through posts longer than one sentence, huh?

a ranger is still SAFER than a rogue. dont need theorycraft to know that

[Delt]

a ranger is still SAFER than a rogue. dont need theorycraft to know that

Safer is debatable, but whatever. Sure. Monk too, though I've seen plenty of gimps running at 16. Depends what ya got in the party. Whats the difference? Who said otherwise little fella?

Is it gonna be a pattern that I follow up all your simple posts with "Show me where I said that"?

Enjoy your strawman and numbers.

[Aranticus]

Safer is debatable, but whatever. Sure. Monk too, though I've seen plenty of gimps running at 16. Depends what ya got in the party. Whats the difference? Who said otherwise little fella?

Is it gonna be a pattern that I follow up all your simple posts with "Show me where I said that"?

Enjoy your strawman and numbers.

you are right that you did not post anything about who is optimal. you posted,

Good rogues can solo the elemental. Most rogues, in my estimation, aren't good (low STR, finesse halfers without the proper gear).

In a PUG, you don't always know everyone's ability is - so sticking a rogue there is a safe choice. Hell, no matter what kinda toon it is, it can't be screwed up enough to have gimped it's evasion.

which is basically what the OP is talking about!

If you have a group that has rogues, barbarians, rangers, or any other melee character, assigning the rogue to "DPS" the elemental lt. in part 2 is probably not the best choice.

If you need help understanding this please read the following about sneak attacks.

"The rogue has the ability to deliver a sneak attack whenever an opponent loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (i.e., when the opponent is flat-footed or flanked or cannot see the rogue). The rogue can then take advantage of this momentary weakness to strike at a vital part of the anatomy (provided the creature has a discernible enough anatomy to suffer a critical hit)."

IE. Not an elemental.

You know who you are!

rogue is a good choice due to evasion and no doibt about that. however, this is not the point of the thread. the thread is saying, why get the rogue to tank when there are BETTER choices. pretty much and pug i see on khyber usually have the ranger or monk on the ele rather than the rogue. the only exceptions i can think of is when the gnoll is present and the ranger (if it has monk splash) or monk is a safer bet to have them tank the gnoll due to greater command

[Shade]

Much more silly assignment:

Phase 3 - Don't know Puzzle? Stand by your door and do nothing, because someone else wll do it (and you shouldn't even try).

Thats something I hear way too of often in shrouds.

If your new to the shroud.. And pug it .. You will hear this, and if your kind enough to obey it.. Never learn the puzzle. Same with any subsequent run. I bet there are people who done over 20 shrouds and still have no idea, because they've never tried.

Dumbest asignment ever.

I always tell people to do there puzzles or at least attempt. They only get kicked out after most everyone else is done theirs.

Just don't like the idea of assuming everyone is so stupid they can never learn such a trivial puzzle, so they even shouldn't try.

[JakLee7]

when i lead the pug shroud groups I tell people - if you can't do your puzzle, stand by the door & /death
its faster that way

[Samadhi]

i Have A Character With A Rogue Icon That Routinely Takes Down The Elementals Solo. Or At Least Gets Em Down To Under 10% By The Time The Other 3 Are Down....

Just Because I Don't Get My Sneak Attack Damage Doesn't Mean I Cant Kill Stuff.

Often Its Just Distrationary. Have One Person Pull The Ele Away So You Dont Have To Deal With The Fire Sheild Or Stoneskin. Sounds Like A Good Job For Most Rogues To Me.

Qft.

[Emili]

Much more silly assignment:

Phase 3 - Don't know Puzzle? Stand by your door and do nothing, because someone else wll do it (and you shouldn't even try).

Thats something I hear way too of often in shrouds.

If your new to the shroud.. And pug it .. You will hear this, and if your kind enough to obey it.. Never learn the puzzle. Same with any subsequent run. I bet there are people who done over 20 shrouds and still have no idea, because they've never tried.

Dumbest asignment ever.

I always tell people to do there puzzles or at least attempt. They only get kicked out after most everyone else is done theirs.

Just don't like the idea of assuming everyone is so stupid they can never learn such a trivial puzzle, so they even shouldn't try.

People once attempted to get stern with me out for letting a child who was in group play with a 3x3 when we both zoned into the same one. I told them they were just jealous that I trust a young child's reasoning skills before their own.

[Slink]

People once attempted to get stern with me out for letting a child who was in group play with a 3x3 when we both zoned into the same one. I told them they were just jealous that I trust a young child's reasoning skills before their own.

Yes, as I was told last night before going into part 3:
"If you don't feel like solving you puzzle, stand by the door and someone will be along to let you out."

I zone in and find myself in a 3x3 with all 4 corners lit:
"Well, I could step on the middle in this 3x3 but I think I'll just wait for someone else to do it.."

Was greeted with many chuckles for that one

S.

[seldarin]

With improved evasion, a high reflex save, and self healing, a rogue is an acceptible candidate to occupy the fire elemental while the rest of the group kills the others. No, he's probably not going to have the elemental down to 10% health but he won't need a cleric babysitting him either.

Whats this self healing you speak of? Majority of rogues i see wouldnt know what self healing was, let alone how to do it. If you are saying that rogues have UMD for wands/scrolls, i could probably show you 10 rogues to your 1 that dont have that, or dont do it, most just have UMD to equip that nice gear that they dont meet the requirements for.

If you mean self healing as far as pots, well anyone can do that, just majority choose not to.