Analysis of past raid loot systems

[Pwesiela]

The backloaded nature of college courses do not contribute to that function. For example, I recently saw documentation that over 40% of the days to get a Law degree could be eliminated with no harm to the quality of education. It turns out that a lot of the traditional courses are just not needed for being a lawyer.

Being a law student, I can say that I want more class time for the classes I'm taking. (And that's mutual accross my fellow students.) What the "study" you're refering to probably really means to say is that as a practicing attorney, I won't use a lot of what I'm learning because I probably won't practice exclusively in the field. It is still a vital part of the education and even in practicing a narrow field of law, all parts will eventually impact the practice.

It would be like having a vascular surgeon not learn how the immune system works, even though the two are interconnected. Just because I'm going to be practicing international law doesn't mean that I'm not going to run into trusts & estates.

But I digress and derail....

[Borror0]

But module 4 was Gianthold... you know, bring-vorp-and-disrupt-to-Madstone-and-POP land.

Using Vorpal and Disruption was not a good way to dispose of most mobs.

By the way, it would also mean that Positive II would be more popular than it was in Module 6.

Resistance to fire, acid, or cold isn't uncommon there either.

Far less common.

And the raid boss needs transmuting (just like mod 2, 3, and 6 did).

No, it did not. That was changed later on.

Regardless, everything you listed is 3-shard, making it still generally worse than 4-shard effects.

Ice II is not three shard.

And as far as comparing Triple Pos to those Triple elements, it wasn't news to anyone that assorted mobs would have energy resistance from time to time, but that they'd still mostly be evil aligned.

True, it could be possible for the triple elements to deal more DPS since Positive II has Greater Disruption instead.

[Scribbler]

Being a law student, I can say that I want more class time for the classes I'm taking. (And that's mutual accross my fellow students.) What the "study" you're refering to probably really means to say is that as a practicing attorney

No actually. It involved surveying both law professors and law firm recruiters, and it showed pretty convincingly that a large section of the middle of the curriculum just wasn't important. Not only does it not matter in practice and firms don't look for it when hiring, but students have somehow learned this and they basically slack off in that period. And the citations were tier 1 schools and firms. It's as if they had a vacation baked into the curriculum.

[Hafeal]

Here is what JayDubya said:

That depends on what you are looking for. If I'm looking for an employee who is able to focus on a long-term goal and see it through, then a college degree is decent signal of that ability.

and your response:

The backloaded nature of college courses do not contribute to that function. For example, I recently saw documentation that over 40% of the days to get a Law degree could be eliminated with no harm to the quality of education. It turns out that a lot of the traditional courses are just not needed for being a lawyer.

Was there something else?

If not, I would say you were glossing over J's point and re-directing toward an argument regarding the quality and necessary length of college education.

A college degree, regardless of its length or the merits thereof, certainly demonstrates a student's ability to focus and complete a goal. As to the quality or sufficient weight that accomplishment depends on other factors; getting a degree from Harvard v. a community college for example.

[Scribbler]

Using Vorpal and Disruption was not a good way to dispose of most mobs.

Just the ones that mattered. I recently had occasion to play Madstone and POP again on a new midlevel alt. Boy, if you don't have vorpal and disrupt (or para) then don't even bother clicking.

By the way, it would also mean that Positive II would be more popular than it was in Module 6.

Yes, and the Positive weapon series is one that you listed as in the four popular Shroud weapons.

[Hafeal]

It was a paper in The Journal of Higher Education.

Got a link? Was it a study? Opinion piece? Conjecture?

Some of school, including law school, is gaining experience and not just the memorization of facts. Kinda like DDO - you can know the rules, that does not make you a great player. Great players are made through experience in combination with knowledge.

[Pwesiela]

No actually. It involved surveying both law professors and law firm recruiters, and it showed pretty convincingly that a large section of the middle of the curriculum just wasn't important. Not only does it not matter in practice and firms don't look for it when hiring, but students have somehow learned this and they basically slack off in that period. And the citations were tier 1 schools and firms. It's as if they had a vacation baked into the curriculum.

Mhmmm. Come to law school at a tier I school.

[Hafeal]

No actually. It involved surveying both law professors and law firm recruiters, and it showed pretty convincingly that a large section of the middle of the curriculum just wasn't important. Not only does it not matter in practice and firms don't look for it when hiring, but students have somehow learned this and they basically slack off in that period. And the citations were tier 1 schools and firms. It's as if they had a vacation baked into the curriculum.

Well, it does not matter when you get a job because you tend to focus in a job. Law school is a much more broad based look at how the law works in all areas around you. In the world we live, however, you tend to focus afterwords.

The funny part is they survey recruiters (why? and who cares?) and law professors - both of whom tend to be removed from what it actually means to practice law. Where is the survey of the lawyers, judges, partners and firm managers? The best lawyers and judges used a broad knowledge of many practice areas - even when they specialize because there are so many overlaps.

[Pwesiela]

....because there are so many overlaps.

Law doesn't overlap. Everyone knows that there is never a cross over between contracts, wills, torts, international law, and crimes. Unless of course, you have a son that hires a foreign killer to off his father through some "accident" in order to inherit the family fortune...

[Scribbler]

The funny part is they survey recruiters (why? and who cares?) and law professors - both of whom tend to be removed from what it actually means to practice law.

The topic was not the practice of law, but the teaching. Both professors and recruiters have a powerful economic incentive to understand that subject.

The fact is that a substantial part of the law school curriculum is there because of tradition, and because it flatters the self esteem of lawyers.

[transtemporal]

I know folks with 100 and 120 on Titan that STILL can't grab chattering or Belt. It sucks, and 20 runs is basically 3 months of raiding. At least let them have #40.

A 100 runs is just crazy. I think 20 is perfectly reasonable. Its enough thats it not a gimme but not so much that even a casual player couldn't get there.

[KKDragonLord]

A 100 runs is just crazy. I think 20 is perfectly reasonable. Its enough thats it not a gimme but not so much that even a casual player couldn't get there.

I concur, more than 20 is too much.

[transtemporal]

But I admit to feeling less than happy when the TWF ranger looted the Leviks TS in Hound, then asked to roll on my Tumbleweed...

Its a different conversation, but why were you less than happy? Hes a melee and that shield gives him the best blocking DR in the game currently. He may not be using for AC but he'll definitely be using it for DR25 blocking in shroud part 2, vod if hes an intimidator and prey for keeping the dragon down one end and away from the giants. My TWF barb uses it all the time, its fantastic.

[JayDubya]

Re: 140 runs for 100% guarantee of item.

I disagree. That kind of dedication should be avoided.

Is there any good reasons for game developers to allow a player to run a quest that many times for the reward he seeks?

Now we're just negotiating a number. How many runs do you think it should take before a person gets what they want?

[Borror0]

Now we're just negotiating a number. How many runs do you think it should take before a person gets what they want?

Around 40 sounds right.

[Borror0]

Its a different conversation, but why were you less than happy? Hes a melee and that shield gives him the best blocking DR in the game currently. He may not be using for AC but he'll definitely be using it for DR25 blocking in shroud part 2, vod if hes an intimidator and prey for keeping the dragon down one end and away from the giants. My TWF barb uses it all the time, its fantastic.

Probably because he wanted the shield as well so they could have traded.

[barecm]

The original raid loot system (1.1 after the leader assigning loot fiasco was fixed), as flawed as it seemed back then, guaranteed some raid loot everytime through. Now, you can run raids and get zero loot.... which statistically happens way more than the max loot item drop number does.

[Scribbler]

Around 40 sounds right.

What number would be good is dependent on the difference between the item he's hoping for and other items available.

In the Titan situation you're often looking at, the Chattering Ring is an item with no approximate equivalent (well, DT armor got the same bonus much later and in a worse slot). If players had already had a way to get a +1 or +2 AC ring (which didn't stack with Chattering), the less it would have impaired their gameplay if they couldn't get the real thing.

So the lower the benefit of the item is compared to items you can already get, the more acceptable it is for some players to "just be unlucky" and unable to reach it. Plus, of course, the number of players required is also a factor; if Titan was soloable by normal folks (and without reducing your loot chances) then the higher number of runs would be more acceptable. If it was shorter then the tolerability also goes up.

[SneakThief]

I think it'd be more reasonable (on the player side) for the game to track which items it made available at the last 20th, and make available the other half of the items at the next 20th. This would result in some players getting what they need in 40 runs if they are only after one piece of raid loot, while other players would have to continue running the same quest (potentially) if they were after several since their first list might have had both items.

Since this got re-quoted for some reason ... I also would not like this idea from the developement end. If I am the developer, I already have a variable I can check for 20 40 60 etc ... so making it show half the list on 20 and the full list on 40 would require no extra data to be stored, just an extra conditional when building the loot list. The above suggestion would require me to store extra data so that items wouldnt be shown next time.

Around 40 sounds right.

Agreed

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Following this information, a good raid loot system would drop named items that can be upgraded and those upgrades will not be random and will always be improvements over the previous state.

Well you called that one right... spend much time in the Mournlands? lol