Analysis of past raid loot systems

[Borror0]

Over the year, Turbine has tried three different approach at their raid loot rewards:

• Named pieces of loot
• Crafted from the ground up
• Instant loot with random change in bonuses

Now, what's important is to learn what worked and what did work.

Named pieces of loot:
The strength of the loot system found in Vision, Hound and all raids older than the Shroud is that it's instantly rewarding. If you get lucky, you instantly gain a piece of loot. You can use it immediately. It's great for those who don't raid often as they don't have to build up their loot chance. The problem is that it can become too random. If someone is pursuing one specific piece of gear, he may have to run 40 runs or more to get it. This is usually cause of frustration since players frantically search for that elusive piece of loot while never feeling they are getting closer to their goal.

Turbine attempted to address this issue, in the past, with a piece of loot at each completion that is a multiple of 20 but it's not perfect yet.

Another problem that many have is the whole party not getting a single reward for completing the raid. If another player got a piece of loot or if they get to personally roll on something, players usually feel more rewarded than if nothing drops.

Crafted from the ground up:
The strength of the crafted raid gear system like the Shroud's is that players feel that they are getting closer to their goal. Instead of randomly throwing a dice and expecting to get lucky, the player slowly builds up his ingredients until he reaches the point where he can craft the piece of loot he wants. The problem with that is that it feels grindy in nature but for a totally different reason than the previous loot system.

To address that specific issue, the Shroud's crafting system was designed to slowly build up.

However, that didn't work out so well.

It was intended for the players to start with a tier I Green Steel piece of loot and slowly improve the item until the player reaches tier III. It didn't work for the weapons (more on that later) but it at least worked as intended for the accessories. When players were only starting to collect ingredients, you would see players slowly building their pair of goggles or boots starting by the first tier and then the second tier.

However, two problem arose:

• Players quickly reached the point where only large ingredients had value
• Players later reached a point where scales and stones were the only real limiter

Since it was possible to farm the first few parts fairly quickly and without much pain, since groups sometimes failed the raid and since the drop rate for lower tier ingredients is much lower, players quickly accumulated a large amount of low tier ingredients to a point where that they were only waiting to accumulated more large ingredients.

Therefore, what was intended to be a slow and progressive amelioration of loot became a a grind for large ingredients.

Later on, the grindy nature of the raid loot system escalated because certain ingredients are more needed than others. While all ingredients all drop at an equal rate, scales and stone are far more required than other ingredients since they were more used on gems and essences than other ingredients.

If one wants to craft one of each single tier recipe, he will need:

• 75 Large Devil Scales
• 42 Large Glowing Arrowhead
• 57 Large Length of Infernal Chain
• 46 Large Twisted Shrapnel
• 29 Large Gnawed Bone
• 75 Large Sulfurous Stone

This imbalanced demand led to players only seeking scales and stones, and having plenty of the others, which further reinforces the grindy nature of the system.

As I said earlier, it worked even less well for Green Steel weapons. This is due to the monster design at the time. All dangerous enemies had elemental resistance and had DR/Good or DR/Good+Silver, which greatly devalued the low tier I weapon recipes for melee characters. As it was not enough, the most dangerous mob at the time had DR/Good+Silver which only one single recipe could bypass but that recipe is tier III recipe and players could easily find better weapons than its tier I or Tier II.

Therefore, players didn't build a tier I or tier II weapon most of the time since they had no need for it. What they needed was the tier III.

Instant loot with random change in bonuses:
The strength of the loot system found in Stealer of Souls is that it's instant gratification upon completion. Unlike the Shroud's crafted loot or the named loot loot from older raids, you automatically gain a solid piece of armor for completing the quest. That especially interesting for casual gamers.

If the problem with the previous loot system was players didn't felt like they were progressing or that the progression was too slow, this loot system takes the problem to a new level by making feel players like they are losing previous progress instead of getting closer. If the players was to obtain a bonus that good but not quite perfect, he will risk losing it for a bonus that is valuable or, even worse, useless to his character to try to get the bonus he really wants. It's not fun, at all.

As it was not enough, the chances to get the enhancement you want are so small that it takes an incredible amount of completions to get what you want unless you have an incredible luck. There has been reports of players needing over one hundred completions before getting what he wants.

Future loot systems:
As we can see, none of the system were perfect. Each had their faults but they contributed to know what the players likes and dislikes.

If the Turbine developers did their homework, future raid loot systems will have a way to avoid excessive repetition to gain finally gain your sought piece of loot and will reward the player progressively instead of suddenly. Developers will also be more careful in making sure that their loot is desirable for the content they are running, in order to avoid the problem they had with low tier Green Steel weapons.

Following this information, a good raid loot system would drop named items that can be upgraded and those upgrades will not be random and will always be improvements over the previous state. It will also avoid zero dropping no piece of loot either by setting a minimum or by doing something a little more complicated.

Finally, there needs to be a way to address the excessive repetitions (40+) for a single piece of raid loot. As previously established, that's highly frustrating and a situation Turbine should seek to avoid. to address that, developers could also allow players to select from the full list of items at completions multiple of 20 instead of only half the list.

Another way they could accomplish the same goal would be to make tokens drop in their latest raid that could be used to buy raid loot from NPCs.

The drop rate could be 50% chance at a token on Normal, 1 token on Hard and 2 for Elite completion and those would drop only from DDO's latest raid. When a new raid is implemented, the old one stops dropping the token and the new one will drop them. That's in order to prevent players farming them too easily and to avoid encouraging repetition of the olds raid from which players are tired about and will overpower anyhow.

[Scribbler]

Over the year, Turbine has tried three different approach at their raid loot rewards:

It's inaccurate to conflate named loot into one system like that. They have used different rules for named loot over time, which had significant implications for group formation and gameplay. The dividing line was the release of module 5 (which retroactively changed the system even in old raids).

The most critical aspect of the current named raid loot rules (which many people apparently don't know) is that you get more loot with a bigger party, so it's like you are being paid to fill the group regardless of if those people are any help in finishing the objectives. That is completely opposite to the recent design goals exhibited by Turbine, where features such as hirelings and scaling promote using smaller groups.

PS. Someone might quibble that you didn't count the Tempest Spine loot system. But TS is a raid in name only, and lacks the defining features of a true raid.

PPS. Oh, you're counting SOS as a raid... that's a stretch, but it does have some raid-like qualities to it.

[Babumbalaboo]

Smaller groups are being promoted in regular dungeons, not in raids. The whole nature of a raid should require twelve people there in order to complete it, no ifs, ands, or buts. If you have 11 people in a raid, you will be missing that one extra tank to soak up the damage; that one extra healer to make everyone healthy again; that one extra damage dealer that can get a boss down before everyone gets pummeled to death. Granted, I do not have extensive raid experience in DDO, but the premise is simple. If you're doing a raid with less than twelve people, you're doing it wrong.

[KoboldKiller]

One note, and of course I could be wrong, but with the named raid loot as I recall it will be in your reward list for your 20th run so at a max you would have to run 20 times for just 1 piece.

[Borror0]

One note, and of course I could be wrong, but with the named raid loot as I recall it will be in your reward list for your 20th run so at a max you would have to run 20 times for just 1 piece.

As I said in the OP, currently you only get half the list and not the full list.

[maddmatt70]

I agree with alot of your analysis. Just a few points of disagreement. I actually think that VOD/Hound was too easy to get the loot you wanted. Doing 20 raid runs gets you about 90% probablity of getting the raid loot you want. This I would argue is too easy. The incentive to just crank out 20 runs on normal with the close to 85% probability of getting raid loot on the 20th end reward is far too great. After 20 runs you stop raiding on that character and alot of people do not do the raid on hard or elite because they do not feel enough incentive. I agree though there was some loot in the raid that are far superior to anything else - the obvious items are the tharne's goggles and bracer of the glacier. Several other items should have been better and be improved such as the vestment and bard's cloak. In conclusion, I think there should have been about 3 other raid items in the raid, better overall raid loot, and the probability of getting what you want at 20 more like 66%.

In regards to a new system. There has been alot of speculation that the new raid will have a semi-craftable ring system. You loot a specific ring and then can add to its properties through crafting. This would seem to be a better model because it encompasses different types of grinding. If the ingredients to enhance the ring were evenly distributed and players had multiple viable enhancement options instead of just a couple of overpowered options this would seem like a nice a system.

[Borror0]

I actually think that VOD/Hound was too easy to get the loot you wanted.

I agree. The problem with those two raids was that there was too few items on the list.

There has been alot of speculation that the new raid will have a semi-craftable ring system. You loot a specific ring and then can add to its properties through crafting. This would seem to be a better model because it encompasses different types of grinding. If the ingredients to enhance the ring were evenly distributed and players had multiple viable enhancement options instead of just a couple of overpowered options would seem like a nice a system.

I agree with that as well.

[QuantumFX]

Borror0 - A link that could help show one of the more frustrating aspects of the Dragontouched Armor.

Also, in light of the most recent DDOCast, Turbine may be pursuing a different route to equalize the Devil scale drop rate. So far, I have only heard of Stones and scales dropping in the new quests.

[Milolyen]

The most critical aspect of the current named raid loot rules (which many people apparently don't know) is that you get more loot with a bigger party, so it's like you are being paid to fill the group regardless of if those people are any help in finishing the objectives. That is completely opposite to the recent design goals exhibited by Turbine, where features such as hirelings and scaling promote using smaller groups.

This is in appearance or design by the raid leader only. Most people go into a raid looking for an item. Adding more people will not increase "your" chance to get raid loot unless you build the raid to do so by limiting the classes to only those that would not seek the item you are looking for(for instance most melee wanted Madestone boots from reaver so a melee would lessen his chance with every melee he invited) or by limiting who rolls on an item(a guild has 8 people in raid and lets 4 others join but any loot gained by the guild only gets rolled on by guild but then "others" don't know that before hand and let the guild roll on loot that they get). However if done fairly there is no guarantee that your chance to get raid loot goes up by adding more people. Yes you have a better chance to see and maybe a better chance of getting to roll on an item but your chance of actually getting the item is not guaranteed to go up. Other factors can come into play such as how rare the item is you are looking for or how often the quest is ran.

Milolyen

[KoboldKiller]

As I said in the OP, currently you only get half the list and not the full list.

oops, my apologies.

[Borror0]

Borror0 - A link that could help show one of the more frustrating aspects of the Dragontouched Armor.

True. I should have remembered of that post. I added a link from the OP.

Oh, and gave +1 rep to gfunk.

Also, in light of the most recent DDOCast, Turbine may be pursuing a different route to equalize the Devil scale drop rate.

True but they are a year and a half late.

[QuantumFX]

True but they are a year and a half late.

Better late than never.

Oh, and gave +1 rep to gfunk.

Sanadil deserves some credit for that too. I got the link from the DDO Interactive Game Guide.

[Scribbler]

This is in appearance or design by the raid leader only. Most people go into a raid looking for an item. Adding more people will not increase "your" chance to get raid loot

Wrong, just wrong.

Adding a new member to the raid increases the personal loot chances for the other members overall, as long as they loot they desire is only attractive to a minority of the possible characters. That condition usually holds true, because the design of raid loot is not such that most items are attractive to most characters.

The easiest way for you to see that might be to do an example. If you try constructing a few sample situations, you'll see that adding new raid members does increase the chance that existing members will get the loot they want. There are instances when an individual member will see his chance diluted by adding a new guy who wants exactly the same thing- but that's outweighed by the needs of the other existing members.

unless you build the raid to do so by limiting the classes to only those that would not seek the item you are looking for

That's already the case in normal situations, due to Turbine's design of raid loot value. If you simply think of a raid and the items it drops, you'll see how that is true.

[Pwesiela]

You know, I'd be more happy with the DT crafiting system if the system "remembered" what runes you had previously placed on your armor and would not allow the previously rejected set to reoccur until the entire list had been extinguished. This sort of "process of elimination" would put a maximum number on the runes needed to get the effect you want while still retaining the decreasing possibility of having to go try again.

[Samadhi]

Excellent analysis, first off.

Second, in regards to the random nature of the DT armor, I think they were on their way to the ideal future loot system. It both contained the customability of crafting with the fun of "random loot."

The problem, IMO, is that the system had restrictions that other random loot - including raid loot items - don't have. Tradeability.

Tradeability is very important. The best way to idealize this is allowing the runes to state what they are in the chest. You are still getting random runes (fun for the gambler). Everyone gets a reward (fun for the casual). It remains customizable if you are willing to grind (good for the power gamer). But, through trading of runes and identification without having to use them up, there is not the intense frustration that results in the DT system as it currently is.

IMO, they have improved with this implementation, and with the tweeks above we could have a superior system to the current ones.

[Alekx82]

You bring up a complicated issue B. How can the raid loot system be perfected so that it does not turn into a mindless grind ? Frankly, I think it might be nearly impossible. Given enough time, as your characters become maxed out in terms of gear and weaponry, there will inevitably be a chokehold point where you are stuck running the same raid in search for that final piece of loot that will complete your character. I can personally say that for 4 of my characters (out of 10 capped at level 16), that chokehold became the Ascension Chamber. The litany of the dead will complete 2 of my casters and I would love to have the Enduring Conviction on my paladin. What is left is just running it hoping I get a fair roll at it or it drops for me randomly or after a 20th completion.

After 2+ years playing DDO, one day I was finally able to complete my ranger. Man that was one of the best days I can remember (in terms of a sense of in-game accomplishment). That same day I canceled my account and decided to wait for more end-game content.

[Trillea]

You guys are missing the point of the raid systems here. Turbine wants us to keep playing, so they are intentionally making the raid loot systems more and more grindtastic so that they keep us involved until they can come out with the next nugget of a Mod. Otherwise they would have never gotten rid of the old guaranteed 2 pieces of raid loot system.

If you look back, it was after that change that the updates started getting further and further apart. That change was a forerunner of things that came since. They are trying and trying of thinking of ways to stretch current content because it is more economically profitable to do so.

They don't care if you ever get that chattering ring or 3rd part of the glaciation set on your dragontouched armor. In fact, when you do get it you are that much less likely to run that quest again which speeds up the day that you have nothing else that you need/want and then stop playing, and hence they lose money.

I would be extremely surprised if they ever changed the raid loot system in this next Mod to anything that takes less than 60 runs to get more than 1 or 2 pieces of usable loot, if they are really doing the ring crafting as thought may be happening elsewhere in these threads.

[Samadhi]

You know, I'd be more happy with the DT crafiting system if the system "remembered" what runes you had previously placed on your armor and would not allow the previously rejected set to reoccur until the entire list had been extinguished. This sort of "process of elimination" would put a maximum number on the runes needed to get the effect you want while still retaining the decreasing possibility of having to go try again.

Also an excellet solution, although I would wonder if this is as feasible from the programming perspective as rune identification would be. That I can't answer.

[Scribbler]

Smaller groups are being promoted in regular dungeons, not in raids. The whole nature of a raid should require twelve people there in order to complete it, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Do you have some justification for that statement?

If you have 11 people in a raid, you will be missing that one extra tank to soak up the damage; that one extra healer to make everyone healthy again; that one extra damage dealer that can get a boss down before everyone gets pummeled to death.

That's a natural idea, and it's completely understandable that someone without experience might think that's how raids work. In fact, it's probable that the DDO designers sometimes thought they had built raids to work that way, but that was a serious mistake on their part.

If you're doing a raid with less than twelve people, you're doing it wrong.

That is true at the present time, but only because the raid chest outputs loot proportionate to the number of players. It is not strongly related to the need to fight enemies.

I'll summarize the early history of DDO raiding very quickly:
Raid 1: Dragon. Need 3 people to hit pillars, then 2 people to beat dragon. Other 9 people can contribute minorly while waiting for loot, but to do so provides just a slight increase in combat success.

Raid 2: Titan. Need 1 person to chop pillar, one to push button, and one to pull Titan. Other 9 people can stand around and stay alive until it's time to loot.

Raid 3: Demon. Need 1 person to aggro archers, 1 to kill boss, and 1 as a healer. Other 9 people can try to add some DPS, but to do so is only a small improvement.

Raid 4: Reaver. Need 1 person to aggro boss, 1 to kill elementals, and 1 as a healer. That can all be handled by 1 player, although it gets hectic with under 2. Other 9 people can stand in the corner and wait for loot.

So that's what the situation was when the first wave of DDO's raids were out there. Due to ill-conceived game design, bringing more people into the group had only a small positive effect on the success of your run. What do I mean by a "minor" improvement? Suppose I'm doing the Demon raid with 3 guys and it takes us 12 minutes. Two more people join and they're just as good at DPS, meaning we triple the speed and it only takes 4 minutes. But compared to the 66 hour timer to repeat a raid, saving 8 minutes is irrelevant.

Running a raid was firmly established as a job for 2-4 guys, plus whatever friends happened to be on to tag along. Going in with a large group was pointless; if you had 12 competent players on together, you'd do better to split into 3 teams of 4 and raid separately.

The good way for the devs to have addressed that problem would have been to make the raids work more like you think they work: Difficult battles that call for more players to have a chance at winning. But they didn't do that (or at least not yet). Instead they changed the loot code for the raids, so that the amount of loot produced increased according to the number of players. Overnight, people stopped getting a few friends together and raiding whenever they could. Instead, they had to wait and try to fill a group before going in.

Those other players who started being brought to raids weren't there to help do the quest; they were invited to help loot.

PS. Since that time, some newer raids have had battles where more than 4 players makes it noticeably easier.

[Alekx82]

So how many of you guys have heard horror stories about +80 titan completions and no belt ? I know a couple of guys in Argo that are still going at it...