A noob that would like some advice on a build

[Untfell]

Hi,

Some buddies and I are planning on rolling a "gimp" grp. The idea is that we all roll a new 32 point build and play those characters together, exclusively. Nobody can post any gear or money to their new toon, we can only use what we loot (so no tomes at creation, although the auction house is allowed once you have accumulated enough wealth).

None of us are that experienced at the game, so I thought I would try and get some advice on a build idea I had. Looks like there is gonna be 4 (maybe 5) of us in the grp, so i thought that i would try and make myself available to fill a few roles as required.

The basic build idea is to offer support melee DPS, trapsmithing, and occasional party buffing and healing (through wand use and a small spell selection). I am fairly sure that I will have made some noobish errors on this character build, positive actually. That aside, it would be nice to know if it will be viable given some expert tweaking.

I have tried to lay the character out as best as i am able. It is difficult (well, time consuming would be a better description) without an intimate knowledge of gear and spells to present all the information that i would like.

I am considering dropping 2 lvls of ranger for bard for the song boost(s).

Thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks for your time and input.

- Sweom

Class: ranger 13 / bard 1 / rogue 2
Race: Human
Allignment: Chaotic Good

Starting Stats:
Str 16
Dex 13
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 13
Cha 11

Ending Stats:
Str 30 (16 base + 4 level + 6 item + 2 rams + Human Adaptability Strength II )
Dex 22 (13 base + 6 item + 3 ranger enhancement)
Con 20 (13 base + 6 item + Human Adaptability I)
Int 18 (12 base + 6 item)
Wis 18 (13 base + 5 item)
Cha 16 (11 base + 5 item)

Enhancements
Enhancement: Ranger Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Ranger Search II
Enhancement: Ranger Search III
Enhancement: Ranger Spot I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild III
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Feats:
1.Dodge
1 Mobility (human)
3.Over-sized Two Weapon Fighting
6.Spring attack
9.Extend Spell
12.Weapon Focus
15.Improved Critical

Favored Enemies:
3. Undead
7. Giant
12. Evil outsiders

Skill Points:
Max Spot, Search, DD, UMD, Open. Put 3 ranks in perform, rest wherever.

UMD:
19 rank
3 cha
3 cartouche
4 GH
2 luck
(5 boost)
------------
31 (36) - seems good enough

SPOT:
19 rank
4 wis
13 item
2 luck
2 heroism
1 enhancement
(5 boost)
------------
41 (46) - seems good enough

SEARCH:
19 rank
4 int
13 item
2 luck
2 heroism
3 enhancement
(5 boost)
------------
43 (48) - seems good enough

DISABLE DEVICE:
19 rank
4 int
13 item
5 tools
2 heroism
(5 boost)
1 enhancement
------------
44 (49) - would like more points here

OPEN LOCK:
19 rank
6 dex
13 item
2 luck
5 tools
2 heroism
1 enhancement
(5 boost)
------------
48 (53) - seems good enough

[Untfell]

And again, in case this format is preferred.

Cheers,
- Sweom
n.b. human adaptability strength does not seem to calculated correctly in the Character Planner. Only one point of strength is being added.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 Chaotic Good Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 13 Ranger \ 1 Bard) 
Hit Points: 174
Spell Points: 262 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity            13                    16
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom               13                    13
Charisma             11                    11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               5                    11
Bluff                 4                     4
Concentration         1                     2
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device        5                    21
Haggle                4                     4
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                  1                     3
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                  7                     9
Listen                1                     1
Move Silently         1                     3
Open Lock             5                    23
Perform               n/a                   3
Repair                1                     1
Search                5                    23
Spot                  5                    21
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                5                     7
Use Magic Device      4                    19

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Ranger)


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 10 (Ranger)


Level 11 (Ranger)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 14 (Ranger)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Ranger Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Ranger Search II
Enhancement: Ranger Search III
Enhancement: Ranger Spot I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild III
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[Kriogen]

Whats wrong with Ranger15/Rogue1 ?

Starting stats:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8

[Leyoni]

Not enough song boost to make 1 level of bard worth taking.

Ranger/Rogue is alright assuming you have no rogue in your group. 1 level of rogue is all that is needed assuming you focus on UMD, search, DD & OL.

Ranger/Rogue/Monk is flavor of the moment (1 level each for rogue and monk).

Good alternative is rogue with ranger splash. More DPS assuming you have a main tank in your group to handle intimidating or otherwise keeping aggro.

There is a pretty sick (in a good way) rogue/ranger/monk build floating around the forums. It is fairly tome intensive but doesn't need to be.

[Thrudh]

I think you might be trying to do too much...

A ranger/rogue would be a great character... Good at fighting, and good at traps (you'll definitely want someone in your static group to be good at traps)

Or if you need someone who can buff... a bard/rogue would also work very well... go warchanter, and you'll be able to fight decent, buff very well (great spells like displacement and haste, and of course your songs) and get the traps...

Ranger/bard/rogue is too much to fit into one character, in my opinion, especially untwinked...

[Untfell]

I think you might be trying to do too much...

A ranger/rogue would be a great character... Good at fighting, and good at traps (you'll definitely want someone in your static group to be good at traps)

Or if you need someone who can buff... a bard/rogue would also work very well... go warchanter, and you'll be able to fight decent, buff very well (great spells like displacement and haste, and of course your songs) and get the traps...

Ranger/bard/rogue is too much to fit into one character, in my opinion, especially untwinked...

K, thx all for the feedback so far. Cpl of questions:

1. Is this character's trapsmithing not up to scratch? I have max ranks and a +5 boost with some bonus from stats. Am I missing something critical?

2. Is the melee up to scratch? If not, then how? Maybe I can work on it. Is it feat selection, BaB, enhancement boosts? Something else?

3. Do Bards gain the ability to use arcane wands (without UMD), dependent on caster level?

4. What do 1 (or 3) levels of Ranger get me that I am not getting from 1 (or 3) levels of Bard? From what I can tell, the differences seem pretty minor. Bit of BaB, few hitpoints, in exchange for wider spell selection, more spell points and arcane wand use without a roll (if I understand wand use correctly). Of course, i have not fully explred the ranger enhancements....

I can appreciate your time, however it would be nice to understand what exactly is wrong with the build. Please keep in mind, I am wondering if this build is viable, not if is it is optimal. I thought about looking up a rogue build on the boards, I have seen plenty of rogue monk ranger mixes running around, even in my short time playing. Sorta was hoping to do something a little different.

Here is an alternative build. I assume it is suffering from similar issues

Bard/Rogue has some appeal. I might look into that.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 Chaotic Good Human Male
(2 Rogue \ 11 Ranger \ 3 Bard) 
Hit Points: 170
Spell Points: 272 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity            13                    16
Constitution         13                    14
Intelligence         12                    12
Wisdom               13                    13
Charisma             11                    12

Tomes Used
+5 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               5                    10
Bluff                 4                     5
Concentration         1                     2
Diplomacy             0                     1
Disable Device        5                    21
Haggle                4                     5
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                  1                     3
Intimidate            0                     1
Jump                  7                     9
Listen                1                     1
Move Silently         1                     3
Open Lock             5                    23
Perform               n/a                   7
Repair                1                     1
Search                5                    22
Spot                  5                    20
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble                5                     7
Use Magic Device      4                    20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Human Bonus) Mobility


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 10 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant


Level 11 (Ranger)


Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Ranger)


Level 14 (Ranger)


Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Ranger)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost III
Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost IV
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength II
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Bard Perform I
Enhancement: Ranger Search I
Enhancement: Ranger Search II
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild I
Enhancement: Ranger Energy of the Wild II
Enhancement: Bard Charisma I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

Thasnks for your input.

- Sweom

[Untfell]

Whats wrong with Ranger15/Rogue1 ?

Starting stats:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8

Nothing, I guess.

- Sweom

[Untfell]

Not enough song boost to make 1 level of bard worth taking.

yeah, I originally had 3 levels of Bard, but decided to post this version as a starting point. Do you think 3 levels make song boost worthwhile? i get access to 1st tier song enhancements and get an extra song. Seems almost ok

Ranger/Rogue is alright assuming you have no rogue in your group.

What a coincidence...this build is a Ranger/Rogue/(bard) :P

1 level of rogue is all that is needed assuming you focus on UMD, search, DD & OL.

Is there something wrong with two levels of rogue? I mean, I do get evasion....and not knowing the content too well, i think spot is a good idea.

Ranger/Rogue/Monk is flavor of the moment (1 level each for rogue and monk).

See those monk splashes all over the place. Don't interest me personally.

Good alternative is rogue with ranger splash. More DPS assuming you have a main tank in your group to handle intimidating or otherwise keeping aggro.

Hmm, not a safe assumption. Also, not really interestd in playing a rogue as my priamry class.

There is a pretty sick (in a good way) rogue/ranger/monk build floating around the forums. It is fairly tome intensive but doesn't need to be.

[/quote]

Cool. Any suggestions as to what is wrong with the build I have posted though? See previous reply for some pertinent questions.

Hope I'm not coming across as a smartass, i am just genuinely having fun and trying to give my own build a crack.

Thanks.

-Sweom

[Untfell]

Is there something wrong with two levels of rogue? I mean, I do get evasion....and not knowing the content too well, i think spot is a good idea.

What a goose. I get evasion at Ranger 9. Does it stack to give me improve, i wonder? Guessing not.

Will suss out rogue 1/ranger x/bard (15-x)

Cheers,

-Sweom

[Thrudh]

1. Is this character's trapsmithing not up to scratch? I have max ranks and a +5 boost with some bonus from stats. Am I missing something critical?

Max out Spot, Search, Disable, Open Lock (you can skip a few ranks of Open Lock if needed).

WIS bonus helps Spot
INT bonus helps Search, Disable
DEX bonus helps Open Lock

Get a set of Spot, Search, Disable Goggles... Highest plus you can find... +3 at lower levels, +5, +7, +10, etc, as you level up... Check the AH for them.

Heroism potions give you a +2 to all skills

Take the first level of rogue enhancements (+1 to each skill). Get the Ranger Skill Boost enhancement.

2. Is the melee up to scratch? If not, then how? Maybe I can work on it. Is it feat selection, BaB, enhancement boosts? Something else?

As a ranger, you'll want the Tempest enhancement at level 6... So you need to get Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack as your first 3 feats...

3. Do Bards gain the ability to use arcane wands (without UMD), dependent on caster level?

Not sure... my bard has UMD... With rogue and bard levels, you should max out UMD as well.

4. What do 1 (or 3) levels of Ranger get me that I am not getting from 1 (or 3) levels of Bard? From what I can tell, the differences seem pretty minor. Bit of BaB, few hitpoints, in exchange for wider spell selection, more spell points and arcane wand use without a roll (if I understand wand use correctly). Of course, i have not fully explred the ranger enhancements....

Actually, I'm liking the idea of your build more and more...

I would go with a end-game build of 15/4/1 Ranger/Bard/Rogue. You'll want 4th level Bard for the 2nd level spells (Blur and Rage) or maybe even 12/7/1 so you can get haste and displacement.

I can appreciate your time, however it would be nice to understand what exactly is wrong with the build. Please keep in mind, I am wondering if this build is viable, not if is it is optimal. I thought about looking up a rogue build on the boards, I have seen plenty of rogue monk ranger mixes running around, even in my short time playing. Sorta was hoping to do something a little different.

Here's the problem with your build... It actually works pretty well at end-game... But going through the lower levels, it will be harder... (and as a semi-new player in a static group, you'll probably be advancing slowly - which is fine - my favorite time in this game was with a static group playing quests for the first time).

You'll want to start with 1 level of rogue, and then get 6 levels of ranger as soon as you can (Tempest, Improved Two weapon fighting, Favored enemies, Manyshot, two 1st level spells, etc.) Lots of good stuff at level 6 ranger... But you also want some bard in there... But every level of bard delays you in the ranger levels...

But I wouldn't wait too long for the bard levels either... They are essential to the flavor of this build... I'd probably take 1 level of rogue first, 2 levels of rangers, 2 levels of bard, and then 4 more levels of ranger, then 2 more levels of bard, then all ranger... Something like that...

It will be a fun build in your static group... Not optimal, but viable and fun... Good luck to you!

[Leyoni]

Actually, I'm liking the idea of your build more and more...

I would go with a end-game build of 15/4/1 Ranger/Bard/Rogue. You'll want 4th level Bard for the 2nd level spells (Blur and Rage) or maybe even 12/7/1 so you can get haste and displacement.

The question to ask is, "What does a bard give the group that some other class cannot provide?"

Spell-wise the answer is nothing. Everything the bard could provide a cleric, wizard or sorcerer can provide. The only thing bards provide that cannot come from elsewhere is bard songs.

These are most effective at the upper levels -- explaining why there are few builds with low levels of bard splashes.

The better option, if OP really wants to have a bard, is to go with a bard/rogue Warchanter.

As for skills, unless the OP completely gimps INT (which he should not if he wants to use rogue skills as both search and DD depend on INT), he will have more than enough for anything rogue related, including UMD.

[Leyoni]

Cool. Any suggestions as to what is wrong with the build I have posted though? See previous reply for some pertinent questions.

Hope I'm not coming across as a smartass, i am just genuinely having fun and trying to give my own build a crack.

You've answered most of your own questions so I snipped those from this reply.

Your last build was 2 rogue/11 ranger/3 bard. You already know that 2 rogue isn't needed. I've already mentioned the issue with bard splashes.

IMO you would be better off, if you are really stuck on bard, to go 1 rogue/6 ranger/13 bard. But, I'm fairly confident that the bard players would tell you 2 rogue/18 bard (now you need 2 rogue for evasion).

[Untfell]

I would go with a end-game build of 15/4/1 Ranger/Bard/Rogue. You'll want 4th level Bard for the 2nd level spells (Blur and Rage) or maybe even 12/7/1 so you can get haste and displacement.

Once i realized that the 2nd rogue level was unnecessary (given that I get evasion at ranger 9) I pretty much reached the same conclusion...that Bard 4 was the way to go. And Bard 7 seems to be the natural progression. Of course I am going to have a close look at the enhancements first.

Something i wasnt aware of, Rangers don't check their base wisdom for learning spells, they check the modifed score. Did not know I could just throw a Wisdom item on and learn spells. Pretty awesome.

It will be a fun build in your static group... Not optimal, but viable and fun... Good luck to you!

Thanks so much for taking the time to help out, I really appreciate it.

Cheers,

- Sweom

[Leyoni]

Something i wasnt aware of, Rangers don't check their base wisdom for learning spells, they check the modifed score. Did not know I could just throw a Wisdom item on and learn spells.

INT should probably start at 13 or 14. You can ignore WIS entirely. If you are planning on bard you may want some extra CHA (although even a 6 CHA on my warforged is enough for most UMD needs).

[Thrudh]

The question to ask is, "What does a bard give the group that some other class cannot provide?"

Ah, but the OP made a good point... What's the difference between 4 levels of ranger past 15 and 4 levels of bard? What's the difference between 19/1 Ranger/Rogue and a 15/4/1 Ranger/Bard/Rogue? Basically, just Tempest III...

If the static group has no bard at all, then even 4 levels of bard is worth something (+2 attack,+2 damage)...

And it's just kind of fun and different...

(Although maybe a 15/5 Ranger/Rogue would be better)

The better option, if OP really wants to have a bard, is to go with a bard/rogue Warchanter.

That's also a very good choice, and is a build that will be more worthwhile outside the static group as well... I played a bard/rogue in MY static group and he was very useful... and I still play him, even though my old friends are long gone

[Untfell]

The question to ask is, "What does a bard give the group that some other class cannot provide?"

Spell-wise the answer is nothing. Everything the bard could provide a cleric, wizard or sorcerer can provide. The only thing bards provide that cannot come from elsewhere is bard songs.

Good point. Yet I suppose can still offer that, to a degree. I can also offer a sample of ranger spells, rogue skills, and melee capability (I hope).

The goal was to viably fill a variety of roles on one character with a build of my own design. I guess the build is sorta wacky, but I didn't want to roll up a cookie-cutter from the boards. Really, i just wanted to know if this would work, I think it will. Only time will tell.

These are most effective at the upper levels -- explaining why there are few builds with low levels of bard splashes.

Fair enough. I know I'm not going to buff as well as a straight/high level Bard. Hopefully I will melee better though.Or at least offer slightly more versatility.

The better option, if OP really wants to have a bard, is to go with a bard/rogue Warchanter.

I don't want a Bard. Really, the whole reason I even considered Bard was bacause of:

• Focusing Chant: You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to attack rolls and skill checks.

It seemed like a cool spell. And because of the high skill points.

As for skills, unless the OP completely gimps INT (which he should not if he wants to use rogue skills as both search and DD depend on INT), he will have more than enough for anything rogue related, including UMD.

I'm not too concerned about skills. Given that I have chosen the three highest skill point classes, it should fairly straight-forward to reach acceptable scores in the key rogue skills.

I'm still plugging away, gonna make this work!

Cheers,
- Sweom

[Leyoni]

I'm still plugging away, gonna make this work!

Good for you. I would suggest you go 12/7/1 then. You'll want all the bonus feats that come free with ranger and probably Tempest II. Beyond that you might find bard more useful at L7 than L4. At L6 you can get the first level bard PrE as well -- so you should really consider 13/6/1 or 12/7/1 in any case.

Play around with your DEX score some. You indicated you may be a (the?) main tank. You're going to want reliable AC. Without the monk splash that means armor and DEX. Mithral breastplate will offer you the best armor protection in light armor. For your bard spells to work reliably this is your limit.

Unless human is a requirement you may want to look into elf or halfling. Also, don't forget drow is equivalent to 32 points and has higher starting numbers in some key stats. It may be build-points efficient to choose drow.

[Gorstag]

I want to know how your group is not experienced, yet everyone is rolling 32 point builds?

[Aethene]

weapon focus for +1 to hit is a waste of a feat

[sigtrent]

weapon focus for +1 to hit is a waste of a feat

For no twink characters its pretty good at lower levels. I generally re-spec it after a while though.