Yarhovah - the obvious class split

[Monkey_Archer]

Devotion IV rings...

In-game experience tells me it is better to use a devotion IV Helm
And i dont even have a chattering ring to worry about

[TechNoFear]

racial toughness 3 requires a con enhancement; if that con point makes you odd, then racial 3 does cost a lot of ap for 10 hp.

Of course, my bad.

My original point was that the OP was incorrect that this build had only 20 HP less than the Exploiter.

[Yargore]

Racial Toughness 3 is 6 (not 7) total.

You list Racial Toughness 2 so it is 3 extra for 10 HP.

I need human adaptability: Con to get it. I deem that wasted APs, thus it costs me 7 Aps. It's not worth it. Rather have 10% inc healing.

The Exploiter lists 65 selfbuffed AC inc CE and BarkSkin.

You list 60 (62 DeF) with a Shroud exp Wis GS and Fav Def (not included in the EXploiter) but no Barkskin. With Barks this equals the Exploiters 65 AC (67 w/ DeF).

Exploiter has 69 with Fav Def and a Shroud exp Wis GS.

So in PA mode you are 1 ahead (not 2)
In AC mode you are 2 behind (not 1).

I don't really care whats in the exploiters AC breakdown. It doesn't matter, same class, we can use the same items and buffs.
The only differences is that I have higher dex and and higher wisdom while he have CE.
That puts me 2 ahead in PA and 1 behind in CE, and it also gives me a feat to play with.

See this is my point.

You do not do actual research on the game mechanics. You assume theoretical knowledge is better than actual experience and do not bother to check actual in game mechanics.

I did reaseach the actual mechanics, prior to posting.

I suggest using a clr and Heal as it heals a constant amount, therefore allowing you to calc the the multipliers.

I used a method I've seen used plenty of times on this forum. Not once have I seen anyone question it. Even in this very thread someone used the same method as me.

Ridicolous. Why would I assume that theoretical knowledge is better than actual experience? If that were true I would simply have disregarded your post. But guess what, I didn't!!! I asked if someone could confirm it.

Problem is that I don't have a cleric.

But you did not bother to TEST or run the math, prior to posting.

Nope, I didn't bother to cap the toon and play it for a month before I posted the build.
There was no need for math. It's very obvious that a 50% increase for 10 SP is more SP efficent than a 100% increase for 25 SP.
But maximize can still be more suitable for the build.

Will this cost you a stat item slot? (ie TumbleWeed, Wis or Con depending on item breakdown)

Removing one of these in combat to cast a spell, when low on HP, might not be the best idea....

Temporarily it will cost me a good item, but it's not as if I would need it all the time.
Besides, it's still way better than wipping out healscrolls and equip some UMD gear.

Some rangers may.

Your build will have 324 SP while it holds the Exp Wis GS.

Even with a Wiz6 + 50 + 100 SP shroud item (a waste on this DPS) you will still NEVER reach 700.

Is this the 3rd or 4th GS item on this build?

I would be like to see the equip breakdown.

If you are sure about those 324 then it seems I'll reach 624 then.

3rd. But will wait until I've seen all mod 9 gear before I finalize the gear set up.

[Yargore]

Of course, my bad.

My original point was that the OP was incorrect that this build had only 20 HP less than the Exploiter.

I didn't. Read again and consider the context. I was talking about the 20 extra HP from his higher start con. Perhaps I should've explained myself better.

[Yargore]

the way he should be doing his greensteel is with a min2 access and a conc opp access, letting him get all his sp and hp with massive slot consolidation.

Aye, 10 hp, +6 wisdom, +5 cha skills, 150 sp, conc opp. and 35 hp, +5 prot, heavy fort, wizardy VI, +1 cha skills.
It shouldn't be impossible to fit another conc opp item with immunites and saves ontop of that.

[TechNoFear]

28.5*1.4*1.3*2=104 without a devotion IV item and 156 with one.

This math appears to be incorrect.

Max CSW != 28.5 * 2

[Yargore]

In-game experience tells me it is better to use a devotion IV Helm
And i dont even have a chattering ring to worry about

Aslong as you don't use minos:P

[Junts]

Aye, 10 hp, +6 wisdom, +5 cha skills, 150 sp, conc opp. and 35 hp, +5 prot, heavy fort, wizardy VI, +1 cha skills.
It shouldn't be impossible to fit another conc opp item with immunites and saves ontop of that.

yep thats exactly how my paladin did his.

[Yargore]

This math appears to be incorrect.

Max CSW != 28.5 * 2

It's correct.

[Monkey_Archer]

Aslong as you don't use minos:P

Minos is overrated... with high ac, fortification becomes less important.
Most situtations that will require it (boss fights) you wont be self healing anyway.

[Comfortably]

Minos is overrated... with high ac, fortification becomes less important.
Most situtations that will require it (boss fights) you wont be self healing anyway.

Won't you have a MinII item somewhere else anyway? use the Sup dev 6 helm from the silver flame necklalce turn in.

[Yargore]

Minos is overrated... with high ac, fortification becomes less important.
Most situtations that will require it (boss fights) you wont be self healing anyway.

True enough. But if you don't get hit you wouldn't have to heal in the first place (will change with grazing hits).
Anyhow, will use a mineral II item with +5 prot, hp and heavy fort.

Will try to keep the head slot free from important stuff. It was a sound advice, thank you.

[Monkey_Archer]

I know its absolutely unacceptable .... but a 3x positive holy, goodburst, Superior Devotion Khopesh could be a handy weapon

[TechNoFear]

The only differences is that I have higher dex and and higher wisdom while he have CE.
That puts me 2 ahead in PA and 1 behind in CE, and it also gives me a feat to play with.

You have 1 AC from a +2 Wis item the Exploiter could also include but does not.
The Exploiter has +1 AC from Monk you do not consider.

I used a method I've seen used plenty of times on this forum. Not once have I seen anyone question it. Even in this very thread someone used the same method as me.

All I can say is my testing on live shows differing results. If you don't trust my testing, why would you trust the next poster's numbers?

You also appear to have doubled the +15 from levels bonus.

Nope, I didn't bother to cap the toon and play it for a month before I posted the build.

Why not log on to that 40+ shroud run paladin and test? (they can cast CSW, have Dev 4 etc)

Temporarily it will cost me a good item, but it's not as if I would need it all the time.

When you really need to heal yourself in combat (the clr can't) do you want to take -3 AC?
(as -60 HP might kill you...)

[TechNoFear]

It's correct.

You have worked out the average of CSW as 3*4.5 + 15 == 28.5

Then to get a maximised CSW you have doubled the average CSW.

This is not correct.

Or have I misinterpreted the numbers, could you post an explanation of each.

[Yargore]

You have 1 AC from a +2 Wis item the Exploiter could also include but does not.
The Exploiter has +1 AC from Monk you do not consider.

I gave that to the exploiter aswell, when I compared the wisdom.

That monk bonus reqires 2 monk levels if I'm not mistaken.
Even if it doesn't it doesn't really change anything.

I already pointed out the differences to you.

All I can say is my testing on live shows differing results. If you don't trust my testing, why would you trust the next poster's numbers?

You also appear to have doubled the +15 from levels bonus.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, just that I don't know for sure.
I've seen the other method so many times so it's easier to trust that than your way. I don't like you very much either.

Why not log on to that 40+ shroud run paladin and test? (they can cast CSW, have Dev 4 etc)

I'd rather not. I don't wanna resub my EU account when I'm not playing on it.

When you really need to heal yourself in combat (the clr can't) do you want to take -3 AC?
(as -60 HP might kill you...)

In that case I guess I don't have to use the item. Anyways, I can craft a conc opp helm and swap that out when needed.

[Yargore]

You have worked out the average of CSW as 3*4.5 + 15 == 28.5

Then to get a maximised CSW you have doubled the average CSW.

This is not correct.

Or have I misinterpreted the numbers, could you post an explanation of each.

Yes, that is how I've done it. Why wouldn't the +15 be affected by metamagics?
Hm, you might be right.

[TechNoFear]

Yes, that is how I've done it. Why wouldn't the +15 be affected by metamagics?
Hm, you might be right.

No, my mistake.

[Thucydides04]

Going 12 wisdom would lower the PA AC by 1, for a gain of 2 ac in defensive mode. As this build will most probably be using PA all the time anyways, it wont really be worth it.

I said take a staring wisdom 0f 14 (freeing up 2 abilitiy points), and place them into int, might as well bank on a +3 tome here too since you seem to elsewhere. Then you will have a 10 int and get more skill points (4+19 = 23).

Elf would reduce the flexablity with the stat points, it would also cripple the selfhealing and max hitpoints unless you took those 2 spare points in con, for a non-gain senario.

No, that is incorrect. For an elf to have a 16 dex requires 6 ability points, a human requires 10 (6 pts from 8 -14 and 4 more from 14-16), Furthermore you get two enhancement points in dex, which would allow you to eat a +4 tome adding 1 more to your ac and reflex save. You could couple that with waiting on a +4 tome for wis and lose that enhancement allowing you to have more APs to spend elsewear while keeping wis at 26

Also recall that Human gives him the human versitility boost for +4 UMD or +4 ac whenever either is needed.

Ranger skill boost does the umd, but yes the human will give him situtional AC improvements, the build I suppose would have to forego this

The Elf version would also have to gimp the dps with rapiers instead of khopeshes.

Since the OP stated that trapskills are "useless to a power-gamer" why not take a level of fighter to get full ranks of intimidate, make up the extra feat and take khops, add 1 to BAB, 4 hp and a toughness ehancement (14 total), and get the fighter haste boost and the ac boost to make up for 2 lost from the human versatility. Yeah, you will give up 11 umd ranks but you will still have a 36 umd which is 100% on raise scrolls and 90% on shield wands(10).

Monk at 11 could work, However it matters little in the crucible, not with our skill. (not to brag or anything, it's just that we've done the quests on elite with 100 hp bards (no evasion) (yes, we did the swim and the reflex room))
However monk at 2'nd level is great for the saves, everyone hates those holds when rushing the low levels.

Okay sounds good if that is the way you prefer, it comes out the same at cap either way

[sigtrent]

It's very obvious that a 50% increase for 10 SP is more SP efficent than a 100% increase for 25 SP.

It depends on the level of the spell. Maximize is more efficient at higher levels than empower I believe at or after level 4 this is the case. I did the math at one point.

But the real thing is not efficiency but potency. A maximize heals for more faster. What would you rather cast on a melee character, one heal for 100 or two heals at 75? Conservation of mana does matter but on a self healer you want to spend as little time healing as possible and as much time killing as possible.

Inspired by another thread on the forums I respected my Fighter/Cleric/Ranger to have maximize and to pump up his multipliers a bit. I went from throwing 30-40 point heals, which were nice for emergencies to 110pt heals which are a big swing in a fight. Instead of franticly trying to stay alive in a bad situation, I pop a heal, and then get back to fighting. A huge improvement and much more why I made a self healing fighter in the first place.