Yarhovah - the obvious class split

[Nyvn]

Another version of the build Verengor posted on the EU forum many months before Einermal posted the exploiter you mean?

If you really want to be technical. Gol posted the earliest 18/1/1 build on his forums.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&gl=us&strip=1

Posted on the 7th of November vs Einermal on the 15th.


http://community.codemasters.com/for...d.php?t=319604

[Riorik]

Ofcourse you do. One of the builds is superior to the other in the current metagame. That's a fact.
You have to compare the value of the benefits to the different builds to find out which is better.

This would be a fail. Picking out a single sentence out of the full context is a useless argument. You missed the entire point...of course, this was your point. You can't argue it so you skirt around it.

[Yargore]

This would be a fail. Picking out a single sentence out of the full context is a useless argument. You missed the entire point...of course, this was your point. You can't argue it so you skirt around it.

It pretty much summed everything you said up.
So no, it's not a fail.

Because someone thinks that swim and heal (skill) specced bards with 8 cha 8 str 8 con is the best build out there doesn't mean that it is.

[Riorik]

It pretty much summed everything you said up.
So no, it's not a fail.

Because someone thinks that swim and heal (skill) specced bards with 8 cha 8 str 8 con is the best build out there doesn't mean that it is.

I would never argue that swim & heal are useful skills, however, if somebody actually felt it was, that'd be their opinion and to them, that'd be a good option possibly worth losing other features to get.

The only reason you felt it summed up what I'd said is because you felt you could use the single statement to pretend that my whole argument was useless, pointless and without merit. Good luck with that.

[Yargore]

I would never argue that swim & heal are useful skills, however, if somebody actually felt it was, that'd be their opinion and to them, that'd be a good option possibly worth losing other features to get.

Then you didn't understand what I meant by "better" in the first place.

The only reason you felt it summed up what I'd said is because you felt you could use the single statement to pretend that my whole argument was useless, pointless and without merit. Good luck with that.

That's a lie.

[Noctus]

With tomes, gear and human adabtability it's more than likely that the extra wis/dex ends up being 2 extra AC.
The logic behind your "average" is highly flawed.

Its simple mathematics. You insist on optimal circumstances, and only under these optimal circumstances does the chnged stat distribution actually raise AC by 2. But circumstances under which the added AC is Zero are also equally viable, which you completly ignore to promote your stat changes.

To describe it:
2 point on DEX raise your AC by 1 point. Always, no matter the circumstance. If you only raise the stat by 1 point you may, or may not end up with a higher AC. (same counts for WIS)
I know you use the word "fact" wildly for your opinions, but it is indeed a fact that a 1 point raise is not the equivalent to a 2 point raise. And only through a 2 point raise to DEX and WIS each could you keep your claim of 2 points AC gain true.
You´d need a 4 points higher stat total, but you only raised the DEX+WIS total by 2. This leads to an average AC raise of only 1 point.

No, it's not. Saying that AC only matters in CE is however very misleading and plain out wrong.

Now you try to construct a strawman argument. please reread my statement. You compared apples to oranges.

Even if you prefer the first choice, don't take CE, take TWD!

The AC numbers you stated only hold true if the stars align in your needed order, but i explained that in a previous post.
The thing is that if you do take TWD instead of CE you end with an exploiter who is short 1 point of AC, (-5 to missing CE +2 for defensive fighting +1 attributes +1 TWD = -1) lost his trapskills, and gained ... 1 point of STR.

1 AC will not take you from never getting hit to getting hit often.

Again you try to construct a strawman argument.

You assume that no one uses PA over CE, which is false.

And again another try for a strawman argument.
But let me explain it a bit now. I never made such obviously false statements. But you simply claim such a thing as it is very easy to proof wrong, and so you try to make me look less capable of criticizing your build through implying that i made "an obviously dumb statement". Or, more formal:

--- "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position." ---

And it's not a version of the exploiter, it's a version of "god". Trust me, The Exploiter was not the first 18/1/1 built nor posted.

Your ego is indeed impressive, as it would make and difference who "posted first". It is simply so that in these boards the 18/1/1 is commonly known as an Exploiter. You can make claims otherwise, but they´re not true.

You're just using traps as a way to defend the exploiter. We all know it's useless.

Trapskills are an ability you gave up in your version. You brushed away and comments on evaluation this tradeoff against what you might gain from it, as those who disagree with "trapskills being worthless" are not having sufficient knowledge of the game to competently discuss this character build.

Didn't you just talk about how good it was not having to back out of combat?
Consistency FTW!

In your internet lingo ridden words: "Reading comprehension FTW!"

There are conditions under which those statements were made, and yes, i advocate appropriately differing behaviour in different situations.

If you're calling no trap skills a huge blow to versaility I will laught at you.

Okay, now you´ve got me. Cant really say anything against your argument of "You laughing at me".

If i have to judge the versatility of two very similiar builds, one with trapskills , and one without. I judge the build with trapskills indeed much more versatile than the other build. As the trapcapable build has a whole additional level of how he can contribute to the groups success the other build does not have. I´d call that "Versatility".

[Hadrian]

If i have to judge the versatility of two very similiar builds, one with trapskills , and one without. I judge the build with trapskills indeed much more versatile than the other build. As the trapcapable build has a whole additional level of how he can contribute to the groups success the other build does not have. I´d call that "Versatility".

Honestly, though, that only matters on elite. Few people bother to pay attention to traps on normal unless for the experience bonuses.

[Yargore]

Its simple mathematics. You insist on optimal circumstances, and only under these optimal circumstances does the chnged stat distribution actually raise AC by 2. But circumstances under which the added AC is Zero are also equally viable, which you completly ignore to promote your stat changes.

To describe it:
2 point on DEX raise your AC by 1 point. Always, no matter the circumstance. If you only raise the stat by 1 point you may, or may not end up with a higher AC. (same counts for WIS)
I know you use the word "fact" wildly for your opinions, but it is indeed a fact that a 1 point raise is not the equivalent to a 2 point raise. And only through a 2 point raise to DEX and WIS each could you keep your claim of 2 points AC gain true.
You´d need a 4 points higher stat total, but you only raised the DEX+WIS total by 2. This leads to an average AC raise of only 1 point.

Yes, 0 is lowest and 2 is highest, so the average should be 1. But in this case it's not that black and white. With tomes and human adaptability it's not hard to make the extra stats count.

Now you try to construct a strawman argument. please reread my statement. You compared apples to oranges.

No, I'm not. That's what you said.
"So you are ahead every time it doesnt matter if you are ahead."

AC does matter in PA, it matters more in PA than in CE.

The AC numbers you stated only hold true if the stars align in your needed order, but i explained that in a previous post.
The thing is that if you do take TWD instead of CE you end with an exploiter who is short 1 point of AC, (-5 to missing CE +2 for defensive fighting +1 attributes +1 TWD = -1) lost his trapskills, and gained ... 1 point of STR.

Again you are completely wrong about the stats.

You don't mention the extra AC in powerattack anywhere...
1 point of str instead of trapskills? Thát's what I call a bargain.

Again you try to construct a strawman argument.

No, that is what you said, that if you get hit less (=1 higher AC) you don't have to go out of combat and heal yourself.
That is however wrong.
Nice that you ignored the 2 following sentances.

And again another try for a strawman argument.
But let me explain it a bit now. I never made such obviously false statements. But you simply claim such a thing as it is very easy to proof wrong, and so you try to make me look less capable of criticizing your build through implying that i made "an obviously dumb statement". Or, more formal:

By calling everything a strawman you are doing the same thing.
You completely ignore the fact that my build have higher AC in PA. and PA > CE in most cases.

Your ego is indeed impressive, as it would make and difference who "posted first". It is simply so that in these boards the 18/1/1 is commonly known as an Exploiter. You can make claims otherwise, but they´re not true.

All I claim is that the exploiter is just as much of a "copy" as this build is.

Trapskills are an ability you gave up in your version. You brushed away and comments on evaluation this tradeoff against what you might gain from it, as those who disagree with "trapskills being worthless" are not having sufficient knowledge of the game to competently discuss this character build.

yes, if you still like trapskills, go to the newbie forum.

There are conditions under which those statements were made, and yes, i advocate appropriately differing behaviour in different situations.

lol, so you change your arguement whenever it suits you well?

This is what you said:

While concentration is nice for selfhealing, it can relatively easily be replaced with getting out of the way for two secounds through the alltime favorite high-jump backwards while activating your selfhealing while the monster takes some time to switch attacking to chasing animations.

Does that not hold true for my build?

having to back out of combat and spend DPS-time on better self-healing.

It seems like backing out of the combat to heal is only a factor to count when it benefits your argument.

If i have to judge the versatility of two very similiar builds, one with trapskills , and one without. I judge the build with trapskills indeed much more versatile than the other build. As the trapcapable build has a whole additional level of how he can contribute to the groups success the other build does not have. I´d call that "Versatility".

You're making the wrong comparison. It's not X + trapskills VS X. It's X + trapskills + 1 higher AC in CE VS X + much better selfhealing + concentration + 2 AC in PA.

A trapcapable build has a whole additonal level of he can contriite to slow down the group.
Higher DPS and much better survivability > trapskills.

[Hadrian]

I saw some comment about backing out of combat for healing.

Just a quick point - my zero concentration 13/2/1 currently has no problem casting spells in combat. You shouldn't need to back out. Just swing, swing, heal, swing, swing. The healing animation for CSW is pretty fast.

[lord_of_rage]

Yes, 0 is lowest and 2 is highest, so the average should be 1. But in this case it's not that black and white. With tomes and human adaptability it's not hard to make the extra stats count.






No, I'm not. That's what you said.
"So you are ahead every time it doesnt matter if you are ahead."

AC does matter in PA, it matters more in PA than in CE.



Again you are completely wrong about the stats.

You don't mention the extra AC in powerattack anywhere...
1 point of str instead of trapskills? Thát's what I call a bargain.




No, that is what you said, that if you get hit less (=1 higher AC) you don't have to go out of combat and heal yourself.
That is however wrong.
Nice that you ignored the 2 following sentances.



By calling everything a strawman you are doing the same thing.
You completely ignore the fact that my build have higher AC in PA. and PA > CE in most cases.






All I claim is that the exploiter is just as much of a "copy" as this build is.



yes, if you still like trapskills, go to the newbie forum.





lol, so you change your arguement whenever it suits you well?

This is what you said:


Does that not hold true for my build?



It seems like backing out of the combat to heal is only a factor to count when it benefits your argument.





You're making the wrong comparison. It's not X + trapskills VS X. It's X + trapskills + 1 higher AC in CE VS X + much better selfhealing + concentration + 2 AC in PA.

A trapcapable build has a whole additonal level of he can contriite to slow down the group.
Higher DPS and much better survivability > trapskills.

Wow man you have a huge ego.Too bad its undeserving. N is right on. Your build is lacking trap skills which is something the exploiter build isnt. 1pt of str gives you nothing as its an odd #. The exploiter does everything your build does and handles traps. This makes it a more versitile build. I dont care about how traps only matter on elite and every other argument you and AO will regurgitate. Ill roll an X build over this anyday. Because if I want to hit a trap I can. I still have a high ac and solid dps. Further more your sheer arrogance turns me off to this build. Oh yes I know that "I fail", I am wrong about "metagaming", I should go back to the "newb forums",Im not an uber "powergamer" ..... Did I leave something out? Im sure youll find some other insulr to again regurgitate for me. You arguing some of your highly opinionated points is like saying bud light is a superior beer because it has "drinkability". Have fun.

[Fennario]

I hope they put some really good loot behind some insta kill traps in mod 9.

[Hadrian]

I actually still prefer the finesse build style ranger/rogue/monk. The build on this post is not something I would consider playing, but I do agree as far as his views on trap skills.

Just consider him a pure ranger or an offensive melee like any other and give the trap duties to a build that incorporates that role into its plan. My cleric can't get traps, but that lack of versitility doesn't bother me. Same in this case. It's not his intended role, so he's spent his points toward his focus instead of trying to be more versitile.

Arguments can be made for either case, and either way is valid. There is no point in arguing an opinion like this one.

[Thanimal]

I hope they put some really good loot behind some insta kill traps in mod 9.

Actually so do I! Not to punish Y and A-O, but because one of the things that made DDO different was traps. If traps are a no-op for the best gamers, that is very disappointing. It reduces DDO to a more generic MMO than it should be.

[78mackson]

Actually so do I! Not to punish Y and A-O, but because one of the things that made DDO different was traps. If traps are a no-op for the best gamers, that is very disappointing. It reduces DDO to a more generic MMO than it should be.

Well, if they do implement sucha thing .. I doubt that the exploiter could get to it anyway.. it must be trap-monkey old-skool-waste30APs-improved evasion-45reflex save-safe.. wouldnt it? :P

[Yargore]

The exploiter does everything your build does

Got a question for you. Did you even bother to read the build?

[78mackson]

I saw some comment about backing out of combat for healing.

Just a quick point - my zero concentration 13/2/1 currently has no problem casting spells in combat. You shouldn't need to back out. Just swing, swing, heal, swing, swing. The healing animation for CSW is pretty fast.

well.. In theory: whenever you get hit and is going to throw a spell you will make concentration check.. maybe you just had luck .. or very nice AC and evasion combined with luck... but one day you will see: concentration: you roll 12, you fail..

I usually do what you say aswell without having that much problems, exept for when I tested it infront of Harry, no matter: jumping out of swing range and heal goes 20times faster then swapping to scroll, heal slow animation, weapon and then back again...4-5 sec delays if your fast..

and.. there is nothing stopping Yarhovah(I couldnt even be bothered to read the build, just the action :P) from using healscrolls on the fly, is it?

[Hadrian]

well.. In theory: whenever you get hit and is going to throw a spell you will make concentration check.. maybe you just had luck .. or very nice AC and evasion ...

I think you stated the point without seeing it. Remember, we're talking about a ranger/monk build here.

I am not talking about one encounter. I am talking about the life of this year-old character His birthday is today, actually.

So I'd count luck out.

[78mackson]

I think you stated the point without seeing it. Remember, we're talking about a ranger/monk build here.

I am not talking about one encounter. I am talking about the life of this year-old character His birthday is today, actually.

So I'd count luck out.

on elite his AC wont be so king that he´ll only be hit by a 20 ..

And Evasion nor AC doesnt prevent certain types of dmg eg. seering light. Then you´ll make a concentration roll... once again, I ´m not saying its a ground breaking problem... just that concentration checks do occour.

[Yargore]

on elite his AC wont be so king that he´ll only be hit by a 20 ..

And Evasion nor AC doesnt prevent certain types of dmg eg. seering light. Then you´ll make a concentration roll... once again, I ´m not saying its a ground breaking problem... just that concentration checks do occour.

Even more so with grazing hits. You'll need concentration if you want reliable selfhealing.

[Hadrian]

on elite his AC wont be so king that he´ll only be hit by a 20 ..

And Evasion nor AC doesnt prevent certain types of dmg eg. seering light. Then you´ll make a concentration roll... once again, I ´m not saying its a ground breaking problem... just that concentration checks do occour.

I'm just saying I am actually playing a ranger/monk and having no problems whatsoever. Warnings from pure made-up-on-the-spot theory don't impress me much. No offense, but it's just not an issue at all. I think maybe part of it is that I don't stand still.

Even more so with grazing hits. You'll need concentration if you want reliable selfhealing.

Yeah, or you know, stone skin.