Yarhovah - the obvious class split

[78mackson]

There is only one problem with building concs on a toon like this.. you dont get hit enough fir it to really matter, ofc it will proc every now and then but I doubt it will proc as often as on a low AC guy... I noticed this on my build that was similar to this(15/1) I felt "ohh.. wow.. I really blew those scales on ****, didnt I?" Concs are abit meh! anyway since they aren´t that reliable in a raid fight. But if you got the spare scales.. then why not?

Good AC and almost insta-self heal will make this toon very cleric friendly.. can Imagine that a group with 9 rangers, 1 tanky kind of build + 1 chanter(self heal, dps-build) and one cleric would work extremly efficient.

[Yargore]

There is only one problem with building concs on a toon like this.. you dont get hit enough fir it to really matter, ofc it will proc every now and then but I doubt it will proc as often as on a low AC guy... I noticed this on my build that was similar to this(15/1) I felt "ohh.. wow.. I really blew those scales on ****, didnt I?" Concs are abit meh! anyway since they aren´t that reliable in a raid fight. But if you got the spare scales.. then why not?

Conc opp procs on grazing hits in the beta, so it will be very nice even with high AC.

[Riorik]

It have come to my knowledge that people still believe that The Exploiter is a better build and that I have never been able to prove otherwise.

Not a criticism of your build, but I believe the real situation to be different.
It's not that you have been unable to "prove" yours is better, it's that you have been unable to "convince" others that yours is better.

Prove implies a black & white comparison...a lot like how 1 is always 1.

Builds are about perceptions and personal preference and what an individual values. Regardless of what you think, If I feel the skills are worth more to me...your can't force me or other players to accept your view.

On your build...I think it is merely different and a variant of the Exploiter, not something new. This is my opinion and not really subject to "failing" as the two of you usually assert of anybody with an opinion that differs.

[Yargore]

Builds are about perceptions and personal preference and what an individual values. Regardless of what you think, If I feel the skills are worth more to me...your can't force me or other players to accept your view.

Not entirely true. Sure, you can have whatever you want for flavor, but when it comes to optimizing you have to consider the metagame and different skills values there from an objective point of view.

[Lymnus]

[snip]
15.Maximize Spell (Might swap to empower healing if I overheal too much)
[snip]
The exploiter spent 4 point in int that I have used in dex and wisdom for higher AC potential. It can esily be translated into 2 higher AC.
The exploiter reaches 24 wisdom and 26 dex, my build reaches 26 wisdom and 28 dex.
[snip]
He went for the CE trap while I went for a metamagic for CSW.
CE gives 5 AC while defensive fighting(DeF from now on) gives 2 AC so CE basicly gives 3 AC.

I understand what you're trying to say with the Maximize/Empower Healing. But, I honestly don't think you have the SP you think you do. I'd like to see the calcs for your SP in your build, but I'm not gonna say your build is ****. It's a variation of a cookie cutter build. It'll be fine, obviously.

How's CE a trap? Because you have to to turn CE on after you cast? Same thing with DeF. Because you lose 5 to hit? With DeF, you gain 2 AC, and lose 4 or 5 to hit. I don't recall if it's 4 or 5 at this moment, but it is higher than losing 2. I just don't understand what you're saying. You *would* have higher AC if you had CE. But, don't say you'll have higher.

The exploiter would get 5 AC from CE. You'd get an extra 1 (Wis)+1 (Dex)+2 (DeF). This means the exploiter would be ahead by 1. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

But, I don't think it's a horrible build. I'm just trying to be somewhat constructive.

[78mackson]

Conc opp procs on grazing hits in the beta, so it will be very nice even with high AC.

Anyone in beta who can confirm this? I mean.. it sounds reasonable. How many Q´s are grazing hits an factor(I dont mean this in an evil-trollish way )?

[Noctus]

sorry, doublepost.

[Noctus]

Class: Ranger 18 / monk 1 / rogue 1
Race: Human
Allignment: Lawful Neutral.

Starting Stats:
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 8

Another version of the Exploiter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ending Stats:
Str 32 (16 base + 5 level + 6 item + 3 tome + 2 rams )
Dex 28 (16 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 ranger enhancement +1 enhancement)
Con 20 (12 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
Int 10 (8 base + 2 tome)
Wis 26 (15 base +2 tome + 6 item +2 shroud weapon +1 enhancement)
Cha 8 8 base

Obviously not all tomes are needed. With human adaptability you can easily make sure you got even stats depending on the tomes you get.

You are inconsistent with the tomes you add to your stats. You alternate between +2 and +3 tomes in a way to make your stat slit seem "perfect".

Feats:
1.Dodge
1 (human).Mobility
2 (Monk). Power attack
3.Khopesh
6.Spring attack
9.Oversized two weapon fighting
12.Improved critical
15.Maximize Spell (Might swap to empower healing if I overheal too much)
18.Toughness

Standart Exploiter feat distribution, except that you swapped Combat Expertise for Maximize.
Thus lowering your AC potential, as the defensive stance is a poor substitute for CE. Which you, as a self-styled Power Gamer should know.

Why this build is superior to The Exploiter
The starting stats:
The exploiter spent 4 point in int that I have used in dex and wisdom for higher AC potential. It can esily be translated into 2 higher AC.
The exploiter reaches 24 wisdom and 26 dex, my build reaches 26 wisdom and 28 dex.

The difference you stated is primarily based in different usage of tomes and equipment. Do you use reliably to get +2 tomes, use +3 as "goal" for Mod 8, or do you include +4 tomes as they will drop in the next Mod?

It simply boils down to your version having +1 DEX and +1 WIS. This difference can mean zero additional AC or two points additional AC, depending on highly circumstancial conditions. On average your version will have 1 point additional AC from attributes.

At the price of loosing CE, which lowers your AC by a net 3 points. So in total you will have a 2 points lower AC than the exploiter.

His 20 extra HP is moot, even with that he have lower survivability.

Feats:
He went for the CE trap while I went for a metamagic for CSW.
CE gives 5 AC while defensive fighting(DeF from now on) gives 2 AC so CE basicly gives 3 AC.
Now remember that with the int spent to get CE I got 2 AC, that means that with CE The Exploiter is 1 AC ahead,

The conditions under which your calculation holds true are highly circumstantial, as shown in my description above.

and without CE my build is 2 AC ahead.

This is misleading. "If the other guy deactivates CE, as he is in a situation where AC is not important, i "win" at AC." So you are ahead every time it doesnt matter if you are ahead.

But, I also got concentration and maximized CSW along with 30% human imp recovery and ranger devotion IV for quick and powerful healing.
That trumphs the extra survivability gained by 1 higher AC in CE IMO.

Thats definetly up to each players personal opinion.
If selfhealing with maximze is worth on average 2 points of AC, as "30% human imp recovery and ranger devotion IV" can be aquired by the Exploiter, too.

I, personally, would rather be hit less in the 1st place, than having to back out of combat and spend DPS-time on better self-healing.

If you disagree then just swap maximized to two weapon defense and you will be at equal AC in CE and you will be 3 AC over the exploiter in PA.

A correct comparisation compares AC-mode with AC-mode and DPS-mode with DPS-mode. You compare apples to oranges. And i can understand why. Because in a correct comparisation your TWD-adjusted version of the exploiter with swapped feats and sightly adjusted stats would end up 1 point AC lower, without any gain.

Skills:
The exploiter have trapskills, but lacks concentration.
Trapskills are useless in the eyes of a decent powergamer.

And again in good old Yagore tradition you start this thread with an insult to the skills of every character builder who dares to disagree with your personal opinion. This shows in which direction any discussion with the OP and his likeminded friend A-O will go asap, but i digress.

And with y very unsophisticated one, by the way, as any "decent powergamer" well knows that having Rogue skills is indeed far from useless. Especially as they come so dirty cheap in this kind of build we are discussing.

Self preservation:
While The Exploiter is dependant on healscrolls for selfhealing, my build got CSW that heals me for:
28.5*1.4*1.3*2=104 without a devotion IV item and 156 with one.
I don't have to severly cripply my DPS while healing, at worst I'll have to equip a devotion ring, while the exploiter must remove his weapon to cast a slow and interuptable heal that heals less than my CSW.

With grazing hits, self healing and concentration will become much more important.

The only thing you are ahead is Maximize Spell. All the other healing amplifiers can be aquired by the exploiter as readily as you can get them. And dont forget that your HP total will be 20 points lower than the Exploiter.

While concentration is nice for selfhealing, it can relatively easily be replaced with getting out of the way for two secounds through the alltime favorite high-jump backwards while activating your selfhealing while the monster takes some time to switch attacking to chasing animations. This requires some timing training on the part of the player, but no build resources.



So in conclusion you tinkered on the Exploiter build and traded some AC and HP, so being generally more "squishy", for some better selfhealing, while throwing trapskills completly out of the window. A hughe blow to the versatility and utility this kind of build can normally bring to a group.

A tradeoff not worth in my opinion.




P.S.

I answered in full anticipation of facing the following slanders:
* my knowledge of basic game mechanics being put into question
* being repeatedly told "You fail!"
* being a complete noob.
* not being a decent powergamer .... [uups, already happened]
* being generally insulted
* various tries at bullying any non-agreeing poster into silence through extremly aggressive posts.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

And with y very unsophisticated one, by the way, as any "decent powergamer" well knows that having Rogue skills is indeed far from useless.

Before yar says his share about your post I'm just gonna say that they are indeed worthless.
Seriously, I've had my Ravager at cap for quite some time now, and I've yet to search and disable a single trap in the game. And mind you, I have done VOD, Rainbow, and all the other quests with traps.

Trap skills are useless in the current endgame. For anyone that cares about rushing that is, eg a "decent powergamer".

[Yargore]

I understand what you're trying to say with the Maximize/Empower Healing. But, I honestly don't think you have the SP you think you do. I'd like to see the calcs for your SP in your build, but I'm not gonna say your build is ****. It's a variation of a cookie cutter build. It'll be fine, obviously.

According to: http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Spell_point&

232 from levels
232 from wisdom
150 from wizardry item
150 from shroud SP item
-----------------------
764

How's CE a trap? Because you have to to turn CE on after you cast? Same thing with DeF. Because you lose 5 to hit? With DeF, you gain 2 AC, and lose 4 or 5 to hit. I don't recall if it's 4 or 5 at this moment, but it is higher than losing 2. I just don't understand what you're saying. You *would* have higher AC if you had CE. But, don't say you'll have higher.

CE is a trap for rangers because they can use the stat points and feat to get just as much AC in DeF and 3 more AC with PA (although I prefer maximize over TWD).

The exploiter would get 5 AC from CE. You'd get an extra 1 (Wis)+1 (Dex)+2 (DeF). This means the exploiter would be ahead by 1. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Yes. That is correct.
I'd just like to add that if you value 1 AC higher than maximize you can take TWD instead, ending up at the same AC in CE.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

You have worked out the average of CSW as 3*4.5 + 15 == 28.5

Then to get a maximised CSW you have doubled the average CSW.

This is not correct.

Or have I misinterpreted the numbers, could you post an explanation of each.

I'm not sure of the math.. But currently, my dwarf ranger has emp healing loaded.
I'm at 30% healing amp, between leviks and my dt armor.
I wear a sup dev 4 ring when I need the heals, and tumbleweed when I want the extra hits.
Not sure right now how much ranger devotion I have.

My self cure serious's hit for around 90-110 or so hp.

So I'd say the potential for maximized cure serious is about right.

[Monkey_Archer]

Trap skills are useless in the current endgame. For anyone that cares about rushing that is, eg a "decent powergamer".

Please dont confuse "powergamer" with "zerger"
There is a difference.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Please dont confuse "powergamer" with "zerger"
There is a difference.

Well, I see every powergamer as a "zerger". But I will stop doing so in the public, so I do not get missunderstood. So to correct the statement;
"Trap skills are useless in the current endgame. For anyone that cares about rushing that is."

[cforce]

Trap skills are useless in the current endgame. For anyone that cares about rushing that is, eg a "decent powergamer".

A_O, if you're defining 'the current endgame' as "the stuff that capped folks run ad nauseum", I see your point; that being said, I'd never make any of my build plans based solely on "the handful of quests all of the capped characters run right now". This is going to change with each release. At points, trap skills *have* been more useful in endgame quests. I expect this will wax and wane a bit.

Yar, I think the observation about Defensive Fighting and CE is an interesting one, although I'm struggling a bit to see how you claim +2 AC from reallocation of points. The 4 points you moved from INT were the difference +2 DEX OR +2 WIS, but not both. But, it's certainly an interesting consideration for anyone who's thinking about taking both CE *and* PA (as many do). I can certainly buy that dropping CE and getting TWD instead gives you higher DEX or WIS by two points, for a net -1 AC in defensive stance and +2 in offensive stance, *while also* improving reflex or will save by one.

We're, of course, talking about small variations in a very good template -- the differences between this build and the Exploiter are minor, and it mainly comes down to whether or not you would take trap skills over healing potential. Personally, I'd take trap skills, but the decision is pretty subjective.

So, is this build "superior to the Exploiter"? No. Neither, in my opinion, is the Exploiter "superior to this build". They are both good builds with slightly different goals.

If you want to claim superiority, in my book, you have to show you can do *everything* as well as another build, and at least one thing better. Otherwise, the most you can claim is, "also good, but different".

[Absolute-Omniscience]

A_O, if you're defining 'the current endgame' as "the stuff that capped folks run ad nauseum", I see your point; that being said, I'd never make any of my build plans based solely on "the handful of quests all of the capped characters run right now". This is going to change with each release. At points, trap skills *have* been more useful in endgame quests. I expect this will wax and wane a bit.

While what you say is more or less correct. The trapskills have never been mandatory in endgame quests, no; not even in von 5 back in the days.

I feel the need of trap skills are dropping by the minute, and even in quests such as monastary are the traps ignored by me and a lot of other players.

I simple find the time it takes to search and disable is far too long.
It might be better someday. But as I said, in current endgame it's useless.
Note that me and Yar most often if not always build for what we know, and what we know now is mod 8 and most of mod 9.

[cforce]

I feel the need of trap skills are dropping by the minute, and even in quests such as monastary are the traps ignored by me and a lot of other players.

I certainly understand well where you're coming from, and this lines up well with the charter of Legion, of course. But, on the flip side, I'll often want to see the traps *done* when they're not out of the way, also for 'powergaming' reasons -- I want to give all of the non-capped characters in the party the XP bonus, as it can still be a net gain in XP/time to pause for 10 seconds for a search/disarm. Obviously not important if you're playing exclusively with capped characters in your party; I find I seldom am.

All of which is fine -- we have slightly different playstyles, and as such, different build goals.

[Yargore]

Another version of the Exploiter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Another version of the build Verengor posted on the EU forum many months before Einermal posted the exploiter you mean?

Standart Exploiter feat distribution, except that you swapped Combat Expertise for Maximize.
Thus lowering your AC potential, as the defensive stance is a poor substitute for CE. Which you, as a self-styled Power Gamer should know.

Standard ranger feat distrubution*
DeF is not a poor substitute for CE considering that it's free. It's fully possible to gain those 3 AC from the stat cost and TWD.

And don't underestimate maximize.

The difference you stated is primarily based in different usage of tomes and equipment. Do you use reliably to get +2 tomes, use +3 as "goal" for Mod 8, or do you include +4 tomes as they will drop in the next Mod?

It simply boils down to your version having +1 DEX and +1 WIS. This difference can mean zero additional AC or two points additional AC, depending on highly circumstancial conditions. On average your version will have 1 point additional AC from attributes.

With tomes, gear and human adabtability it's more than likely that the extra wis/dex ends up being 2 extra AC.
The logic behind your "average" is highly flawed.

This is misleading. "If the other guy deactivates CE, as he is in a situation where AC is not important, i "win" at AC." So you are ahead every time it doesnt matter if you are ahead.

No, it's not. Saying that AC only matters in CE is however very misleading and plain out wrong.

Thats definetly up to each players personal opinion.
If selfhealing with maximze is worth on average 2 points of AC, as "30% human imp recovery and ranger devotion IV" can be aquired by the Exploiter, too.

1 AC in "defensive mode" vs 2 AC in PA (meaning that you can be in PA much more often, thus gaining alot of DPS) and maximize.
That's a very easy pick for me.
Even if you prefer the first choice, don't take CE, take TWD!

I, personally, would rather be hit less in the 1st place, than having to back out of combat and spend DPS-time on better self-healing.

1 AC will not take you from never getting hit to getting hit often.
And remember that with grazing hits you will need to heal up anyways. There is also no need to back out of combat if you have high concentration.

A correct comparisation compares AC-mode with AC-mode and DPS-mode with DPS-mode. You compare apples to oranges. And i can understand why. Because in a correct comparisation your TWD-adjusted version of the exploiter with swapped feats and sightly adjusted stats would end up 1 point AC lower, without any gain.

Same AC*
And 3 higher in PA.
You assume that no one uses PA over CE, which is false. PA is a far more liked stance. As we all know, DPS is king.

And it's not a version of the exploiter, it's a version of "god". Trust me, The Exploiter was not the first 18/1/1 built nor posted.

And again in good old Yagore tradition you start this thread with an insult to the skills of every character builder who dares to disagree with your personal opinion. This shows in which direction any discussion with the OP and his likeminded friend A-O will go asap, but i digress.

You're just using traps as a way to defend the exploiter. We all know it's useless.

And with y very unsophisticated one, by the way, as any "decent powergamer" well knows that having Rogue skills is indeed far from useless. Especially as they come so dirty cheap in this kind of build we are discussing.

Then we don't have the same definition of "decent powergamer".
Dirty cheap? 2 Ac in PA and maximize + concentration is not dirty cheap.

The only thing you are ahead is Maximize Spell. All the other healing amplifiers can be aquired by the exploiter as readily as you can get them. And dont forget that your HP total will be 20 points lower than the Exploiter.

Maximize is very good. Don't underestimate it.
20 HP is meh when you have 400+ with this Ac and saves + evasion.

While concentration is nice for selfhealing, it can relatively easily be replaced with getting out of the way for two secounds through the alltime favorite high-jump backwards while activating your selfhealing while the monster takes some time to switch attacking to chasing animations. This requires some timing training on the part of the player, but no build resources.

Didn't you just talk about how good it was not having to back out of combat?
Consistency FTW!

So in conclusion you tinkered on the Exploiter build and traded some AC and HP, so being generally more "squishy", for some better selfhealing, while throwing trapskills completly out of the window. A hughe blow to the versatility and utility this kind of build can normally bring to a group.

If you're calling no trap skills a huge blow to versaility I will laught at you. Get real, trap skill sucks. In the only quest (vod) where you can bother doing the traps there is almost always a rogue, and it's not exactly the end of the world if you skip them.

A tradeoff not worth in my opinion.

I guess you don't appreciate higher DPS and better self healing then.
Good thing you have those trapskills to make up for it!

[Riorik]

Not entirely true. Sure, you can have whatever you want for flavor, but when it comes to optimizing you have to consider the metagame and different skills values there from an objective point of view.

Remember, this is about convincing me to accept your assumptions, not proof or your version of "objective".


Why not? Because the intent behind the story is that you're creating a fallacious argument that justifies itself. What you're really saying is this:

A) Everyone should accept objective data as true
B) All my observations are objective
Implies
C) You should accept all my observations as true

I think it's fair to challenge both part A & part B.

More relevantly:

Is there any use whatsoever for Disable Device in DDO?
If yes, is there anything you can get from DD that you can get no other way?
(for example, quest experience bonus)

No other questions are needed at this point. I don't even have to argue the value of the quest experience bonus. Whether or not you're capped (and can no longer gain experience) is irrelevant. It's not even relevant that that there aren't any critical traps to disable in the current end game.

And again, that's not something you can argue because it's my SUBJECTIVE opinion just like it would be your SUBJECTIVE opinion that it's not needed or worthwhile.

Another example. An objective comparison is whether 5 is greater than 2. A subjective comparison is whether the numbers look better in this light on a certain type of paper as RED, BLUE or BLACK.

[Yargore]

I don't even have to argue the value of the quest experience bonus.

Ofcourse you do. One of the builds is superior to the other in the current metagame. That's a fact.
You have to compare the value of the benefits to the different builds to find out which is better.

[Thanimal]

One of the builds is superior to the other in the current metagame. That's a fact.

No, that is not a fact. It is not necessarily the case that any two things have a superiority relationship. Some things have aspects that are either not comparable or are only comparable subjectively. Are apples better than oranges? The question is ill-formed.

As cforce has pointed out, superiority is necessarily a matter of opinion *unless* you can do *everything* better. Only then is superiority a fact.

(I should point out that my subjective opinion is that Yarhovah is a build I'd rather play than Exploiter. That has nothing to do with my disagreement with your claim that there must exist an objective superiority relationship.)