Yarhovah - the obvious class split

[Nyvn]

So did A-O or Yargore actually said anything about the dates?

No Yar said...

Another version of the build Verengor posted on the EU forum many months before Einermal posted the exploiter you mean?

It doesn't mean that The Exploiter was influenced by Verengor's build, as I doubt Einermal reads the EU forums, and I doubt Verengor's build was influenced by Gol's build as I seriously doubt he reads Gol's private forums. Just adding a bit of clarification.

[winsom]

So I guess I was wrong [Khopesh vs Elf Rapier], the dps difference isn't that big.
But, it's still more, and you don't have to waste 6-12 aps to get there. The Human choice is obvious, there are no real benefits of going Elf, but there are many for human.

What is the "real" human benefit in your opinion? Just the extra feat? That only matters if the elf character can not somehow afford that feat and other feats you think are required. The extra 20 Hit Points? That's a decent advantage from having 2 more CON. Is there something else ?

Human is a good race, no question. Elf is just as good if you play to it's strengths or enjoy utilizing elf-only options:

The elf can use a khopesh or a rapier, so assuming everything is equal, the human isn't superior at using Khopesh, although he will have 1 free feat and Human Strength +1.

When the elf uses a rapier he exploits the best effect-on-critical weapons and does so more reliably than the human.

Elves can be more accurate with rapier attacks than humans. This can not be discounted because there is no guarantee the human will have every buff he needs at all times. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't, depending on monster AC, de-buffs, stripped buffs.

A human might take Over-sized TWF feat and the elf might not. The elf would be just as accurate as the human with rapiers without OTWF feat.

For a build that is somewhat vulnerable to Will Save failure, the elf is more successful against charm save attacks. Add in Favored Saving Throw along with wise picks for favored enemy and it makes a difference in avoiding getting hosed, by a beholder or mind flayer for instance.

The elf is more accurate with bows. The right bow at the right time can make an importance difference.

The elf can spend two feats to earn self-cast Invisibility and Displacement. The trade-off is it costs two feats. I don't claim these makes the elf better over-all, but it is a more useful option than the human dragon marks.

That's what I can come up with off the top of my head. Really when it comes down to it, both races/characters can be extremely effective if played well. I won't argue that one race or weapon is automatically better when the comparisons are this close. Some people might not call these "real benefits", but I believe it depends on how the player choses to use them. Some people play a ranger and don't take advantage of the spells as much as another player. Some monks don't take advantage of the Ki pool very well. If a player of an elf plays to the elf strengths then it won't be a weaker character by comparison.

A lot of the human enhancement benefits cost APs too and come as Boosts. The human can do extra well for those 20 seconds. My elven ranger/monk is a older-build with 2 fighter levels and that gives access to Boosts similar to what a human gets.

[78mackson]

It doesn't mean that The Exploiter was influenced by Verengor's build, as I doubt Einermal reads the EU forums, and I doubt Verengor's build was influenced by Gol's build as I seriously doubt he reads Gol's private forums. Just adding a bit of clarification.

True. EU-players reads US-forums(aswell as EU-ones, I better add) since you get the action 1 month before us(and can play the test servers) + your bigger player base makes your forums a bit more alive.. I doubt that there are many ppl who read gol´s private forums thou.. What ppl should reference isnt a build but the discussion of monks AC + rangers when they were announced..

Even thou yar n exploiter both have 18/1/1, just the fact that one can insta self heal and the other cannot makes em VERY diffrent to play. That som ppl enjoys doing traps is a mystery.. heck, not even when you play with guilds who generally goes a bit slower they are rarely bothered with... this is imho a fault of design. eg. cabal trap chest is utterly ****, rainbow trap chest got same issiues...

[Absolute-Omniscience]

What is the "real" human benefit in your opinion? Just the extra feat? That only matters if the elf character can not somehow afford that feat and other feats you think are required. The extra 20 Hit Points? That's a decent advantage from having 2 more CON. Is there something else ?

Human is a good race, no question. Elf is just as good if you play to it's strengths or enjoy utilizing elf-only options:

The elf can use a khopesh or a rapier, so assuming everything is equal, the human isn't superior at using Khopesh, although he will have 1 free feat and Human Strength +1.

When the elf uses a rapier he exploits the best effect-on-critical weapons and does so more reliably than the human.

Elves can be more accurate with rapier attacks than humans. This can not be discounted because there is no guarantee the human will have every buff he needs at all times. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't, depending on monster AC, de-buffs, stripped buffs.

A human might take Over-sized TWF feat and the elf might not. The elf would be just as accurate as the human with rapiers without OTWF feat.

For a build that is somewhat vulnerable to Will Save failure, the elf is more successful against charm save attacks. Add in Favored Saving Throw along with wise picks for favored enemy and it makes a difference in avoiding getting hosed, by a beholder or mind flayer for instance.

The elf is more accurate with bows. The right bow at the right time can make an importance difference.

The elf can spend two feats to earn self-cast Invisibility and Displacement. The trade-off is it costs two feats. I don't claim these makes the elf better over-all, but it is a more useful option than the human dragon marks.

That's what I can come up with off the top of my head. Really when it comes down to it, both races/characters can be extremely effective if played well. I won't argue that one race or weapon is automatically better when the comparisons are this close. Some people might not call these "real benefits", but I believe it depends on how the player choses to use them. Some people play a ranger and don't take advantage of the spells as much as another player. Some monks don't take advantage of the Ki pool very well. If a player of an elf plays to the elf strengths then it won't be a weaker character by comparison.

A lot of the human enhancement benefits cost APs too and come as Boosts. The human can do extra well for those 20 seconds. My elven ranger/monk is a older-build with 2 fighter levels and that gives access to Boosts similar to what a human gets.

The thing that makes the Human the superior choice is the extra feat for khopesh and more importantly +30% incomming healing and +4 boost.
Some other small stuff helps as well, such as +1 more wisdom for another modifier with the right gear, +1 dex or +1 strength.

Halfling would be my second choice, but as they lose 30% healing, 1-2 strength modifiers 1 wisdom modifier, IC:Slashing or toughness it isn't really worth it imo, for some saves, a ~6 sa damage and 1-2 ac...

[Monkey_Archer]

Elves can be more accurate with rapier attacks than humans. This can not be discounted because there is no guarantee the human will have every buff he needs at all times. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't, depending on monster AC, de-buffs, stripped buffs.

.. but it often is by us dps calculating types...
Which is why i never only look at numbers

If the human does not hit on a 2, which is likely alot (this aint no kensai), the elf does more dps. Period.

[maddmatt70]

Just a few comments on the whole trap skills vs. surviveablity from a future proofing point of few. The last 9 months have been definitely abnormal in the history of DDO. DDO generally has released new content in a 3-4 month time frame or an even quicker time frame at times. Having a reactive philosophy that I will make the new optimum build according to the new content release at the time is ineffective in my opinion.

Making and levelling a build in 2 days does not mean that character is not gimpish because it will not have the gear at end game. It takes a couple of months to really get most to not all of the right gear because of raid timers and bound/exclusive items. That optimum build philosophy works fine if content is released every 9 months but if it is released every 3 months you are forever behind the 8-ball in a sense because by the time you geared out your character a new mod will almost be there at which point its time to make another new character. The person who speculates on the future of a specific build and has their character all geared out is probably better off in terms of dps and the like then somebody who just levelled up a perhaps better build, but which has less gear.

Trap skills were actually essential in the very old tempest spine raid and I see no reason why they wouldn't become essential in another raid at some point. There is a question of how much should be invested in trap skills of course and whether the exploiter has enough trap skills for these future traps.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

.. but it often is by us dps calculating types...
Which is why i never only look at numbers

If the human does not hit on a 2, which is likely alot (this aint no kensai), the elf does more dps. Period.

If the ac does not go sky high in the next mods you wont see a ranger missing. Not with 4 more levels of bab and +5 from tempest + set.

I would love to see the mob AC go rocket, that way more build would be viable and the Kensai set bonuses actually be good. (Same said for tempest bonuses I might add)

Making and levelling a build in 2 days does not mean that character is not gimpish because it will not have the gear at end game. It takes a couple of months to really get most to not all of the right gear because of raid timers and bound/exclusive items. That optimum build philosophy works fine if content is released every 9 months but if it is released every 3 months you are forever behind the 8-ball in a sense because by the time you geared out your character a new mod will almost be there at which point its time to make another new character. The person who speculates on the future of a specific build and has their character all geared out is probably better off in terms of dps and the like then somebody who just levelled up a perhaps better build, but which has less gear.

The last updates have been released on a 6-month period or so. I think it's a pretty fair estimation to expect a mod each 6 month with the current playerbase. 6 month would give you what, 60 raid completions in all the raids? That's more than enough to perfect or semi-perfect a character.
But most importantly, not every mod brings new uber builds or gimps certain things you know. So expecting a re-roll every two mod would be more accurate imo. Leaving you with 120 raid completions in all the raids between the builds, if you can stand repeating them that much I mean.

Trap skills were actually essential in the very old tempest spine raid and I see no reason why they wouldn't become essential in another raid at some point. There is a question of how much should be invested in trap skills of course and whether the exploiter has enough trap skills for these future traps.

When that happens in 2053 I will be sure to change my opinion regarding trap skills.

[Monkey_Archer]

If the ac does not go sky high in the next mods you wont see a ranger missing. Not with 4 more levels of bab and +5 from tempest + set.

I disagree

18 BAB
11 Str
5 Weapon
3 Tempest set
2 tumbleweed
-5 PA
---
34 unbuffed
4 gh
1 rage
3 madstone
----
42 selfbuffed

even with selfbuffs thats still not enough to hit everything automatically in the current content without party buffs.

[Vivanto]

Trap skills were actually essential in the very old tempest spine raid and I see no reason why they wouldn't become essential in another raid at some point. There is a question of how much should be invested in trap skills of course and whether the exploiter has enough trap skills for these future traps.

There are 12 spots in a raid, and I don't bring a rogue for traps with me, I bring for the **** high damage they make while still being able to do traps. If you want a hibrid build to handle the traps just so that you can exclude the highest dps class from your raids, your loss.

Chances are, even if it can handle the traps, there is at least 1 if not more rogues in a raid regardless, who could do them too if needed.

Tough, on our latest vision run I didn't even bother doing traps with my high level rogue, I've just let the mc do it if they so wanna shine with their skills, while my rogue can with its damage ^^

[maddmatt70]

There are 12 spots in a raid, and I don't bring a rogue for traps with me, I bring for the **** high damage they make while still being able to do traps. If you want a hibrid build to handle the traps just so that you can exclude the highest dps class from your raids, your loss.

Chances are, even if it can handle the traps, there is at least 1 if not more rogues in a raid regardless, who could do them too if needed.

Tough, on our latest vision run I didn't even bother doing traps with my high level rogue, I've just let the mc do it if they so wanna shine with their skills, while my rogue can with its damage ^^

Fair point. My analysis/question is more about whether the extra surviveability is worth giving up trap skills from a future proofing perspective then it is about a rogue's role in the party which I am in agreement rogues like all other melee are about dps. Sadly, the vision traps are avoidable even on elite, although there might be a few deaths which costs the spellcasters some mana for rebuffing. It is nice though having a character who can do the traps in VOD, but not essential. Ironically our last vod had an exploiter build who did the traps on elite (we had nobody else in the group who could do them). When tempest spine first came out a door had to be unlocked and since there was no knock spell at the time a rogue was essential for the raid that is more the scenario I was referring to in a future raid.

[Vivanto]

Fair point. My analysis/question is more about whether the extra surviveability is worth giving up trap skills from a future proofing perspective then it is about a rogue's role in the party which I am in agreement rogues like all other melee are about dps. Sadly, the vision traps are avoidable even on elite, although there might be a few deaths which costs the spellcasters some mana for rebuffing. It is nice though having a character who can do the traps in VOD, but not essential. Ironically our last vod had an exploiter build who did the traps on elite (we had nobody else in the group who could do them). When tempest spine first came out a door had to be unlocked and since there was no knock spell at the time a rogue was essential for the raid that is more the scenario I was referring to in a future raid.

I must admit, I've never once saw those traps go out in vod, mainly because I'm most of the time on my rogue, but even if not, we've always had someone to do them. Don't even know what kind of traps they are lol (mechanical, flaming stuff or whatever)..

Glad you brought up tempest spine, and it shows how much the game evolved. Back then, you needed an excuse to bring a rogue since the class was clearly lacking in many areas, and player skill was generally worse with the class. Nowadays, you need an excuse NOT to bring a rogue, tough so far I haven't found a single one since there are a lot of reasons why to bring them. But I am going very offtopic now.

To add a little to the discussion (tough from an outsider perspective), I hate most trapped quests in game with a passion when on my rogue, coz of the pink icon people expect me to disarm them and waste my time, when they themselves just zerg past. Ofcourse I do my job, but still just annoys me to bother with traps when the group dosen't really need it, even less do I.
I can only guess that the op was thinking similarly, why waste time with traps when killing stuff is more fun?

[FluffyCalico]

Tough, on our latest vision run I didn't even bother doing traps with my high level rogue, I've just let the mc do it if they so wanna shine with their skills, while my rogue can with its damage ^^

There is no need to let the multiclass do the trap in there. Its a low DC so even a pure rogue should be able to do it.

[Thanimal]

Hey Yar (and others), I'm curious about something.

Today I put this exercise to myself: What's the most DPS I could get on a build that offers full Barkskin?

It seems to me I landed at a build not too dissimilar to Yarhovah here, but as a Warforged with 18 start STR. The extra +3 PA on top of Khopesh seems to be non-trivial extra DPS. In total including the commitment to STR, I'm talking +4 per hit compared to Yarhovah.

Now obviously, I give up some things to get there. I lose a feat (which actually doesn't seem that bad given "pure" DPS focus), and I'm at less than HALF the self-healing (65% vs. 140%). I also have -2 to-hit vs. Yarhovah and -4 to-hit vs. the Elf option, which I was kind of dismissing as rarely relevant, but M_A seems very concerned about to-hit here.

But beyond the raw DPS potential, there are some other upsides of WF. The first, of course, is WF immunities. I am so addicted to those it's funny, and for soloing (when I'd expect self-heal to be most relevant) they seem hard to replace. Next, in what seems like the most realistic configuration (DT armor for the extra slots), I pick up a little AC vs. the fleshies (except maybe the Halfling).

So I guess my question is: Is the massive loss of self-healing a deal-breaker? To me it seems pretty minor, but I have very little experience with Rangers. My wife has a WF Ranger, but it's more defensively oriented, so doesn't tend to need much healing.

Am I dumb to consider this? If not, what should I be thinking about in finalizing the design?

[78mackson]

Hey Yar (and others), I'm curious about something.

Today I put this exercise to myself: What's the most DPS I could get on a build that offers full Barkskin?

It seems to me I landed at a build not too dissimilar to Yarhovah here, but as a Warforged with 18 start STR. The extra +3 PA on top of Khopesh seems to be non-trivial extra DPS. In total including the commitment to STR, I'm talking +4 per hit compared to Yarhovah.

Now obviously, I give up some things to get there. I lose a feat (which actually doesn't seem that bad given "pure" DPS focus), and I'm at less than HALF the self-healing (65% vs. 140%). I also have -2 to-hit vs. Yarhovah and -4 to-hit vs. the Elf option, which I was kind of dismissing as rarely relevant, but M_A seems very concerned about to-hit here.

But beyond the raw DPS potential, there are some other upsides of WF. The first, of course, is WF immunities. I am so addicted to those it's funny, and for soloing (when I'd expect self-heal to be most relevant) they seem hard to replace. Next, in what seems like the most realistic configuration (DT armor for the extra slots), I pick up a little AC vs. the fleshies (except maybe the Halfling).

So I guess my question is: Is the massive loss of self-healing a deal-breaker? To me it seems pretty minor, but I have very little experience with Rangers. My wife has a WF Ranger, but it's more defensively oriented, so doesn't tend to need much healing.

Am I dumb to consider this? If not, what should I be thinking about in finalizing the design?

I think you know the answer..(yes, build it!)
In mod8 the to-hit was a factor against a WF with full PA. In mod9 a rangers to-hit potential is really high.. especially vs stuff that you want to hit... so go for it. Your self-heals should be decent for emergencies/raid kiting u name it anyway, and u can scroll reconstruct. (your heal-amp can reach ~90% or something without over doing it)

[Nyvn]

Hey Yar (and others), I'm curious about something.

Today I put this exercise to myself: What's the most DPS I could get on a build that offers full Barkskin?

It seems to me I landed at a build not too dissimilar to Yarhovah here, but as a Warforged with 18 start STR. The extra +3 PA on top of Khopesh seems to be non-trivial extra DPS. In total including the commitment to STR, I'm talking +4 per hit compared to Yarhovah.

Now obviously, I give up some things to get there. I lose a feat (which actually doesn't seem that bad given "pure" DPS focus), and I'm at less than HALF the self-healing (65% vs. 140%). I also have -2 to-hit vs. Yarhovah and -4 to-hit vs. the Elf option, which I was kind of dismissing as rarely relevant, but M_A seems very concerned about to-hit here.

But beyond the raw DPS potential, there are some other upsides of WF. The first, of course, is WF immunities. I am so addicted to those it's funny, and for soloing (when I'd expect self-heal to be most relevant) they seem hard to replace. Next, in what seems like the most realistic configuration (DT armor for the extra slots), I pick up a little AC vs. the fleshies (except maybe the Halfling).

So I guess my question is: Is the massive loss of self-healing a deal-breaker? To me it seems pretty minor, but I have very little experience with Rangers. My wife has a WF Ranger, but it's more defensively oriented, so doesn't tend to need much healing.

Am I dumb to consider this? If not, what should I be thinking about in finalizing the design?

I have a 18/1/1 Ranger/Monk/Rogue Warforged that I really enjoy. Self healing? Check I've got maximize and regularly use Cure Serious, it heals me ~70-80HP a hit with 25% Healers Friend and 20% Healing Amp on my Docent for 95%. I can also use reco and heal scrolls fairly reliably with some gear switching. That's mainly for between fights. I never turn off Power attack with full WF enhancements. If I don't have agro I have Tharnes to help, and even if I have agro, I still make the majority of my hits.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Hey Yar (and others), I'm curious about something.

Today I put this exercise to myself: What's the most DPS I could get on a build that offers full Barkskin?

It seems to me I landed at a build not too dissimilar to Yarhovah here, but as a Warforged with 18 start STR. The extra +3 PA on top of Khopesh seems to be non-trivial extra DPS. In total including the commitment to STR, I'm talking +4 per hit compared to Yarhovah.

Now obviously, I give up some things to get there. I lose a feat (which actually doesn't seem that bad given "pure" DPS focus), and I'm at less than HALF the self-healing (65% vs. 140%). I also have -2 to-hit vs. Yarhovah and -4 to-hit vs. the Elf option, which I was kind of dismissing as rarely relevant, but M_A seems very concerned about to-hit here.

But beyond the raw DPS potential, there are some other upsides of WF. The first, of course, is WF immunities. I am so addicted to those it's funny, and for soloing (when I'd expect self-heal to be most relevant) they seem hard to replace. Next, in what seems like the most realistic configuration (DT armor for the extra slots), I pick up a little AC vs. the fleshies (except maybe the Halfling).

So I guess my question is: Is the massive loss of self-healing a deal-breaker? To me it seems pretty minor, but I have very little experience with Rangers. My wife has a WF Ranger, but it's more defensively oriented, so doesn't tend to need much healing.

Am I dumb to consider this? If not, what should I be thinking about in finalizing the design?

Regarding selfhealing, take note that the healing amp doesn't just enumerate, you'll have 0,65*item*item*etc, instaed of 130%*item*item*etc

You'll lose a bit of ac, fleshy version:
1-2 (+3 more wis)
4 icy
8 armor bracers

WF:
9 composite plating + dt
2 chaosgarde

= 13-14 vs 11. Not build breaking at all, but a difference nonetheless.

Bottom line though, it's a solid level split on a solid race. Build it.

[Thanimal]

Thanks all! Extremely helpful.

[Doomcrew]

Lets just say that some people are superior.
And those whom are inferior usually express jelousy towards such people.

Thus spoken, Yagore be inferior to the author of the Exploiter build. Thank you A.O.

Cheers all have fun.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Thus spoken, Yagore be inferior to the author of the Exploiter build. Thank you A.O.

Cheers all have fun.

HOLY ARGUMENT RESSURECTION!

Epic fail made by Doomcrew.

[Doomcrew]

/shrug EinarMal posts a thread containing the Exploiter build,
Yargore then posts multiple builds claiming superiority to the
Exploiter. Reeks of jealousy to me.

Cheers