Barbarian vs. Fighter

[maddmatt70]

But for 5 minutes Fighters own the top tanking dps spot.
Rogue builds own the top 5 minute sneak attack dps spot.
FB own the marathon dps spot. (not sure but im guessing 10 minutes or longer)

Actually a ranger owns the top marathon dps spot after a barbarian's rages run out.

[maddmatt70]

All I know is when I hit a new raid without having done it before or if its still pretty new in general I would want the following in group in no particular order (a character in group can fill multiple roles):

1. high ac character (twf or S&B) i.e. somebody that can tank ac style.
2. high hit point melee likely a (thf) barbarian who does decent dps and has alot of hp.
3. rogue or multi-class character with adequate to good rogue skills.
4. ranger that at least has quality bows & arrows and can use them.
5. paladin with a nice aura for saves and ac as well as good will save.
6. bard
7. 3 clerics/FVS.
8. wizard
9. sorc
10. one wf melee and one of the arcanes have the reconstruct spell.
11. generally the melee are dps oriented.

Note: Fighter is not necessarily the best at any of these roles and really is not a needed class. Yes, my main melee is a fighter.

[gfunk]

That aside, the largest calculation thread (Gfunks) was more or less started because of me and Yar, and I take it you use that one as reference to "Damage per swing"?

To some extent. I did start posting on the forums about DPS because it seemed that many of the arguements on the forums were going in circles (as people didn't have good numbers to go off of). The Monster and Exploiter threads in particular motivated me to begin a thread that I hoped would become an unbiased reference to aid in solving some of these arguements. Even when I created the thread, I had a few misconceptions and misunderstandings that other posters in the thread helped me work through.

To a certain degree I regret using damage per swing as a metric, however I felt that it would be easier for the average person to follow. Of course, it presented complexities when trying to add in the effect of attack rate changes, so ultimately I conformed to damage per second which is a better way to convey an accurate picture of the damage potentail of builds (though it may be harder to follow unless people are willing to go through all the details).

I also wanted to use damage per swing for awhile until Cforce had wrapped up his thread, which was the first comprehensive effort that I had seen to analyse the effects of different enhancements to attack rate.

It seems that there is much more work that still needs to be done. Especially concerning the THF frenzied barbarian (wrt glancing blow damage: reg procs, crits, vicious). My instinct is, that if you choose barbarian for mod 9, there is a good chance that THF will work out better than TWF (whereas I think that most people will find that the fighter does more damage with TWF and less with THF). I would like to post some numbers on this, but there are a few variables that I have not yet worked out. I am quite intrigued with the possibilities of WF and elven Falchion barbarians, and think they may turn out to be very fun dps builds in the coming mod.

[spifflove]

I was one of the first posters to ever begin with DPS calculations on the DDO forums. .

Can you cite this? I did dps calculations to prove rangers had top of the line dps over a year ago. You know, when rangers were considered a non-melee class.

[SneakThief]

Perhaps I should have said each swing animation so one doesn't mistake it for an attack.

It's not that hard to find the FB thread and look it up yourself either:P

Per haps ... or you could have just said per attack and been irrefutable.
I knew what the frenzy damage was the hour it was posted, and unlike some, I actually have tested it. I was just correcting a statement that was ambigous at best, so that people reading it would not leave thinking frenzy caused twice as much self damage as it does.

A pure fighter gets 10 haste boosts, not 8.A fighter without haste boost have roughly the same DPS as a dwarven barb in double frenzy

Um ... not even close ... using my previous example ... even counting in the fighter capstone, its still K3 = 315 and FB3 = 366

Actually a ranger owns the top marathon dps spot after a barbarian's rages run out.

Agreed ... if you are defining marathon DPS as 30 min or so between shrines. Well ... Fenzy is not dependent on rage, but the crit mult is ... so I could see it being close. STR will be equal at that point, so its whether the attack speed is that much better than the frenzy.

The problem with saying Rogue is the best DPS is the same as the one saying K3 is. You can only be the best by so much for a short time. Once you get aggro, your DPS is gone and if you didnt build for the HP, you're 1-2 shotted and dead. Yeah ... people say manage aggro, but most of the time that means stepping back or switching targets ... no great DPS in not fighting... or spamming diplo/bluff which interupts the attack the same as boost ... The enhancements help ... but again ... only so far. And the haste boost has the same problem as K3 ... its not 30 becuase of the cool down its 20 ... and only for 5 min
So yes ... while they are getting the SA and have haste boosts, 10d6 + extras is very nice.

[Shade]

Agreed ... if you are defining marathon DPS as 30 min or so between shrines. Well ... Fenzy is not dependent on rage, but the crit mult is ... so I could see it being close. STR will be equal at that point, so its whether the attack speed is that much better than the frenzy.

There's not really a realistic raid or quest in the game they could make where a properly pure barb would run out of rage at level20. The game is designed for quests to take an absolute maximum of 1 hour (as seen by the fact some quests have a 1 hour time limit), and really only shroud-style raids to potentially take a bit longer (with allot of shrines on the way)

You can have well over 40 minuits of rage without any real sacrifices to dps.. And you don't need to use it continously.. Easily maintained for over an hour if some of that is downtime buffing/looting.

The math on it is fairly simple: Extend rage IV + a high con = 4+ minuit rages (even over 5 on a extreme con build/setup)
6 base rages + 3 enhancement, +1 FB set = 10 Rages
10 x 4+ min= 40+ min

Realisticly, no quest or raid should take more then that about of time (between shrines). If it does, there is a severe issue with the other group member DPS - so they have zero chance in hell of out DPS'ing that barbarian anyways (or any skilled player in the game period)

So in conclusion you have
Kensai/Paladin - high but very limited burst DPS
Barbarian - Long time sustained DPS
Fighter/Paladin/Ranger (after smites/boosts exhausted) - Support DPS with more flexibility

There no real backup marathon dps class unless the Barbarian in the group just sucls and never spec'd for perma rage.

[Yargore]

P Um ... not even close ... using my previous example ... even counting in the fighter capstone, its still K3 = 315 and FB3 = 366

Sorry, it was supposed to say WF fighter, as that's what I compared to. I know that a WF barb is mch better than a dwarven, but Shade keep hyping his dwarven axes. And it was to him my post was aimed.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Can you cite this? I did dps calculations to prove rangers had top of the line dps over a year ago. You know, when rangers were considered a non-melee class.

The keyword in what you quoted is "One of the first". And my meaning with that was not that I posted the very first calculations ever on the boards, more that I was there when the calculation-mania started, and I was one of the if not the person who shed some light onto fighters.

Once you get aggro, your DPS is gone and if you didnt build for the HP, you're 1-2 shotted and

Any rogue that does not have.
A. Selfbuffed ac over 60 (raid buffed closer to 70-80)
B. Hps over 300, closer to 400.

Is gimped in my opinion. Oh and builds like the Ravager for example don't lose all their dps with aggro, still deals "good enough" dps with it. (infact, the Ravager mod 8 deals more dps with aggro than a TWF dwarven barb does in mod 8)

[maddmatt70]

bah.. First drivel. There were people who posted alot of dps calcs in a variety of builds back in the first 6 months of these boards. Most of them do not post or play anymore.

[Zippo]

Incorrect.

I will refrain from arguing with Shade, as he is clueless in this matter and will always be.

To all the others, the math clearly says that Fighter > barbarian in DPS, by quite a bit. In mod 8 as well as 9.

Shade thinks that just because it has an axe symbol and are "supposed" to have the highest dps they have. Change the icon to a flower and name the class sissy and people like Shade might actually start to reconsider; but until then they're stuck in their own world where barbarians deal the most dps.
I say let them be there, as long as they have fun. But posting inaccurate statements such as this will ofcourse draw my attention.

Roll a Fighter, there is no class more gimped than a barbarian. Quite frankly, I see no reason why to ever roll a barbarian, unless they upgrade their dps by over 20-30% of the current mod 9 planned.

You give a lot of anecdotal (im not even going to call it evidence) reasoning but no numbers; no proof. Until you can show the numbers you are making mere speculation.

[thisgamesull]

Incorrect.

I will refrain from arguing with Shade, as he is clueless in this matter and will always be.

To all the others, the math clearly says that Fighter > barbarian in DPS, by quite a bit. In mod 8 as well as 9.

Shade thinks that just because it has an axe symbol and are "supposed" to have the highest dps they have. Change the icon to a flower and name the class sissy and people like Shade might actually start to reconsider; but until then they're stuck in their own world where barbarians deal the most dps.
I say let them be there, as long as they have fun. But posting inaccurate statements such as this will ofcourse draw my attention.

Roll a Fighter, there is no class more gimped than a barbarian. Quite frankly, I see no reason why to ever roll a barbarian, unless they upgrade their dps by over 20-30% of the current mod 9 planned.

ROFL you have been playing with many gimped barbs I see to even come close to think this, or perhaps you tried a barb and rolled something crappy,I have 5 barbs that put EVERY fighter ive ever grouped with to shame

Thisgame...

[SneakThief]

Sorry, it was supposed to say WF fighter, as that's what I compared to. I know that a WF barb is mch better than a dwarven, but Shade keep hyping his dwarven axes. And it was to him my post was aimed.

I may be off on my numbers somewhere ... but if remove racial bonus and plug in WF PA, and use khopesh instead of DA ... K3 = 378 (surge, cap, no haste boost) FB3 = 406 ...
What are you assuming in damage bonuses for buffs?

[Greydeath]

I was one of the first posters to ever begin with DPS calculations on the DDO forums. Only to a fool would you have to explain such a basic thing into such detail.

This is such utter ********

You two would do much better to stop making **** up.

[Greydeath]

Speak naught of what you do not know.

The only ones to not know something is apparently the two of you...

Take your own advice for a change!

[Greydeath]

Hah, it was me and Yargore that started the whole dps-calc trend you know.

We KNOW you did NOT - give it up already.

[Yargore]

We KNOW you did NOT - give it up already.

It was actually we that started the current trend in The Monster threads.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

ROFL you have been playing with many gimped barbs I see to even come close to think this, or perhaps you tried a barb and rolled something crappy,I have 5 barbs that put EVERY fighter ive ever grouped with to shame

Thisgame...

Mathematics, that is all.


Greydeath:
The current dps trend started with the Monster thread, period.

[Yargore]

I may be off on my numbers somewhere ... but if remove racial bonus and plug in WF PA, and use khopesh instead of DA ... K3 = 378 (surge, cap, no haste boost) FB3 = 406 ...
What are you assuming in damage bonuses for buffs?

I get 388 for kensai and 395 for the barb.

Weapons are Min II with force ritual.
Party buffs add 10 damage.

Our str numbers might be different as we might use different tomes, DT armors etc.

Calcing without haste boost does not give an accurate estimation of a fighters DPS though, I just did it to prove a point to Shade.

[Delt]

The keyword in what you quoted is "One of the first". And my meaning with that was not that I posted the very first calculations ever on the boards, more that I was there when the calculation-mania started, and I was one of the if not the person who shed some light onto fighters.


Any rogue that does not have.
A. Selfbuffed ac over 60 (raid buffed closer to 70-80)
B. Hps over 300, closer to 400.

Is gimped in my opinion. Oh and builds like the Ravager for example don't lose all their dps with aggro, still deals "good enough" dps with it. (infact, the Ravager mod 8 deals more dps with aggro than a TWF dwarven barb does in mod 8)

A joke on so many levels, it's not even worth elaborating. The little Euro fellas really believe the stuff they are spewing, which is sad, because it would be some great schtick otherwise.

[VKhaun]

To the original poster.

Go 10barbarian, 10fighter, and call it a day.