Why Zergers are Disliked?

[Impaqt]

I'd say you hit it dead on.
I've said it before, I don't know why people who can solo every quest, choose to do so with an audiance.
Or the other type of zerger who cannot solo the quest, and blames his death on those he left behind.

There is an ok type of zerger out there.
But so far, not a single post I've seen by those defending zergers have been by that kind of zerger.
So far every single post in defense of zerging, has not acknowledged any responsibility for other members of a group to have fun too.

Not every one. I pointed out quite clearly the people being talked about inthis thread are not "Zergers" they are ***holes.

If you want me to have any respect for your point of view, you had better come across as actually concerned about the fun level of other players.

We are. Which is why we generally do NOT pug. We zerg with other zergers.

If the only person having fun that you care about is you,....well....that's a real selfish viewpoint.

And how about closemindedness? Whats that?

And if you think watching someone else kill everything is fun....well....you're wrong.
If you think being left for dead is fun...you're wrong.

or left behind....missing all the action.
etc.

Then dont give em an audience. Stop, Recall, and reform without the jerk. If these people are "Zerging" off immediatly, then its not really much of a time waste is it?

[captain1z]

I've said it before, I don't know why people who can solo every quest, choose to do so with an audiance.
Or the other type of zerger who cannot solo the quest, and blames his death on those he left behind.

There is an ok type of zerger out there.
But so far, not a single post I've seen by those defending zergers have been by that kind of zerger.
So far every single post in defense of zerging, has not acknowledged any responsibility for other members of a group to have fun too.

If you want me to have any respect for your point of view, you had better come across as actually concerned about the fun level of other players.

If the only person having fun that you care about is you,....well....that's a real selfish viewpoint.

And if you think watching someone else kill everything is fun....well....you're wrong.
If you think being left for dead is fun...you're wrong.

or left behind....missing all the action.
etc.

- zergers dont quest for an audience....please by all means, jump in and join us.

- Ive never seen a zerger die who is more upset at anyone other than themselves (or embarassed)

- when I zerg thru vons with a group of like minded folk we are all having fun

- most zergers Ive seen post are concerned with the fun of others. They frequently post if you dont like our style, you can always join another group or just let us know. People against zergers say "change the game so you cant do that anymore" or "If your so bored of doing a quest so many times just stop playing"

- non-zergersrarely complain about being left behind and all that....... until after they get there free xp I've noticed. as said b4, if its not going the way you want from the start, drop group and put a few new names on your list.


With both playstyles enabled we both have a choice...... taking away my choice and forcing me to play like you is wrong.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Not every one. I pointed out quite clearly the people being talked about inthis thread are not "Zergers" they are ***holes.

We are. Which is why we generally do NOT pug. We zerg with other zergers.

And how about closemindedness? Whats that?



Then dont give em an audience. Stop, Recall, and reform without the jerk. If these people are "Zerging" off immediatly, then its not really much of a time waste is it?

I guess I should have said every post I've read, or remember.

Zerger is probably the wrong term. Your other term was more correct.
But the people who post here defending zergers tend to be the ones I disagree with.

Actually, I zerg a lot. And if the whole group is for it and keeping up, it's ok IMO.
Or even leaving a friend (real friend or guildy) behind and razzing him about not keeping up....that's ok too.

Some quests are real fun to run through and slaughter with zest.
It's not my prefered playstyle. But I've done the quests 100+ times, so mixing it up, doing it one way one time, and another way the next time....etc. Is fun.

But what I see here is the people defending zerging are all talking about carrying noobs through the quest, giving them easy completions...etc.
These people seem to think it's fun to watch someone else kill everything for them.

Anyway, I didn't mean to insult anyone who actually cares about other players having fun too.
It's just that every(ok most) bad experiances I have had or seen in this game, was caused by the steriotypical zerging playstyle....especially bu those who could not slow down to help others find their way, or help them when they got in trouble, cause they stumbled on something still alive while trying to catch up...etc.
And it strikes a bad cord with me.

[Wrustle]

If you want to Zerg... Zerg away. Just do it alone.

This (DDO) is pretty much a team game. I could Zerg every **** quest if I really wanted to but I actually enjoy the process of exploring a dungeon as a team.... Especially with new players who want to learn.

Crazy talk.... I know.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

- zergers dont quest for an audience....please by all means, jump in and join us.

- Ive never seen a zerger die who is more upset at anyone other than themselves (or embarassed)

- when I zerg thru vons with a group of like minded folk we are all having fun

- most zergers Ive seen post are concerned with the fun of others. They frequently post if you dont like our style, you can always join another group or just let us know. People against zergers say "change the game so you cant do that anymore" or "If your so bored of doing a quest so many times just stop playing"

- non-zergers rarely complain about being left behind and all that....... until after they get there free xp I've noticed. as said b4, if its not going the way you want from the start, drop group and put a few new names on your list.


With both playstyles enabled we both have a choice...... taking away my choice and forcing me to play like you is wrong.

You almost had me seeing your viewpoint....until the "free xp" comment.

I suppose there might be a few people out there that appreciate it.
But IMO, people want to actually play through the dungeons.

I certainly would not critisize a group of 16s zerge flagging the VONs.
In fact the rediculous reflagging is a very strong case aginst DA.

I don't think though, that most anti-zerger posts are talking about lvl 16 re-flagging, or running Delera's for Voices, or CO6 for Bats...etc. Or even low lvl favor.

Those are all excellent uses for zerge runs.
Or loot runs of some sort. As long as it's advertised that way. (although sometimes it should be obvious when you see a bunch of lvl 16s in group)

But at lower lvls, I see what the OP mentioned all the time.

Actually, I know I've been guilty of some of this at times as well.
Not by myself, but sometimes I've been having a good time with some of the party out in front, and left newer players behind.
It's easy to fall into that trap. But it's really bad manners to forget about the guy in the back.

But I've also see a whole bunch of people run off.....die. Or encourage others to run by everything, and cause a party wipe........and then leave group.
Some left group angry, some were polite about it.
But the only reason, I can see for leaving is that they blamed the rest of the group for the death(s).

So anyway, it might not be fair to blame everyone, but it really loeaves a bad taste in my mouth when people act like that.
And from what I see, there sure seems to be a lot of people trying to defend rude behavior on these forums.

[bobbryan2]

Before we can even begin to answer why zergers are disliked , we must first define what a zerger is.

What a Zerger is NOT: A Zerger is not an accomplished solo player lets be clear on that.

What a Zerger IS: A Zerger is a player that feels the need to solo a dungeon while others are in his/her party so that he/she can personally bask in the glory that he/she percieves as the rest of the party must be thinking he/she is a great player to be able to accomplish this by themselves.

Now I have no problems moving through a dungeon quickly (not a blizkrieg) and staying with a party that in my opinon is not zerging. I do have a problem especially when you post for NO ZERGING and a player comes in and zerges ahead of the party. The biggest issue I have is that I pay for this game also and will continue to subscribe even when free 2 play comes out. I DO NOT want to walk through an empty dungeon and praise the almighty that we were blessed with a Zerger in our party because otherwise we would not have survived. When a Zerger gets killed because the game cheated (its always the excuse) because they cast hold person on him or commanded him (thats not fair DDO) then they want the party cleric or another willing party member to carry them to a shrine, rezz him/her or something.

I like a party I recently ran with a Zerger was running ahead of us annoying some to include me and yelled **** they held me, not fair and died. The party leader said from the beginning if you zerg I will not heal you and sure enough when we caught up to him in his ghostly form with a spinning crystal next to him we passed him by and he ended up leaving group. We all said after he left "this was a good thing".

When I do enter a party that has an extreme Zerger then I will usually leave the group as I just do not play that way even with dungeons I have done 35 + times. I have been playing since the 10-day pretrial in February 2006 and still appreciate every aspect of the game and still want to enjoy it. I could care less about rushing through a quest for XP or for loot they will come I enjoy the quest always first and foremost.

Wow.

I'm glad no one in this thread seems to be taking you seriously. What qualifications do you have to even start a thread on a subject you obviously know nothing about. And worse than knowing nothing, what you 'think' you know is totally off.

[Thriand]

wait, players don't like zergers? I thought that was just the devs

[dragonofsteel2]

Before we can even begin to answer why zergers are disliked , we must first define what a zerger is.

What a Zerger is NOT: A Zerger is not an accomplished solo player lets be clear on that.

What a Zerger IS: A Zerger is a player that feels the need to solo a dungeon while others are in his/her party so that he/she can personally bask in the glory that he/she percieves as the rest of the party must be thinking he/she is a great player to be able to accomplish this by themselves.

Now I have no problems moving through a dungeon quickly (not a blizkrieg) and staying with a party that in my opinon is not zerging. I do have a problem especially when you post for NO ZERGING and a player comes in and zerges ahead of the party. The biggest issue I have is that I pay for this game also and will continue to subscribe even when free 2 play comes out. I DO NOT want to walk through an empty dungeon and praise the almighty that we were blessed with a Zerger in our party because otherwise we would not have survived. When a Zerger gets killed because the game cheated (its always the excuse) because they cast hold person on him or commanded him (thats not fair DDO) then they want the party cleric or another willing party member to carry them to a shrine, rezz him/her or something.

I like a party I recently ran with a Zerger was running ahead of us annoying some to include me and yelled **** they held me, not fair and died. The party leader said from the beginning if you zerg I will not heal you and sure enough when we caught up to him in his ghostly form with a spinning crystal next to him we passed him by and he ended up leaving group. We all said after he left "this was a good thing".

When I do enter a party that has an extreme Zerger then I will usually leave the group as I just do not play that way even with dungeons I have done 35 + times. I have been playing since the 10-day pretrial in February 2006 and still appreciate every aspect of the game and still want to enjoy it. I could care less about rushing through a quest for XP or for loot they will come I enjoy the quest always first and foremost.

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LMAO do think all people move fast like to keep going or even kill things up ahead care what you think. First not doing it for glory doing it for fun, I will not sit back take ten hours waiting for people make up there mind which way to go. If I get held, trip, command and die oh well that risk going up ahead lmao. Must the time though when running up ahead I find myself going back to the party to get them up because one got lost blah blah blah. Now if the party is moving at ok pass not sitting around all the time, talking oh we need to do A, B, C... fine I will stay with them, but if the party is making a Sunday morning drive sorry bye don't have time for that.

I'd say you hit it dead on.
I've said it before, I don't know why people who can solo every quest, choose to do so with an audiance.
Or the other type of zerger who cannot solo the quest, and blames his death on those he left behind.

There is an ok type of zerger out there.
But so far, not a single post I've seen by those defending zergers have been by that kind of zerger.
So far every single post in defense of zerging, has not acknowledged any responsibility for other members of a group to have fun too.

If you want me to have any respect for your point of view, you had better come across as actually concerned about the fun level of other players.

If the only person having fun that you care about is you,....well....that's a real selfish viewpoint.

And if you think watching someone else kill everything is fun....well....you're wrong.
If you think being left for dead is fun...you're wrong.

or left behind....missing all the action.
etc.

There we go again, what is fun for some is not for others. If you join my group and do not like the way lead and do the quest leave by all means. (Will not hurt my feelings, some like different play styles.) When I join your groups I play little slower of course and stay with the party little more, blah blah blah. See its never been about being a hero or whatever else think going up ahead killing is. Do I think it's a little selfish yeah, but not here to be responsible for others in this game. (Also not here to serve others needs, here to serve my needs of fun.) Although I will be respectiful of there playstlye if I join the group. Now if you join my group deal with the way I run my quest. There is one leader not a voting process, if do not like the leaders way leave the group. This subject is getting stupid by now.

Last thing it is not my responsibility to make sure everyone is having fun, I do not control the other players and do not control if they having fun or not. All I control are my actions, if they not having fun in my group you more the welcome to leave. No matter what way you do a quest someone could be bored or not having fun. So again why am I worried if everyone else having fun? If you can not find friends that like playing with is that my problem? Do I go out play with slowpokes to have fun? Nope find people like playing with and stick with them. Sometimes they not on so I join pugs or create a pug.

Exploiter = someone who takes advantage of in game design such as "PoP back" and other such game flaws or game mechanics to achieve there goal with ease.

So by your definition all those that use blade barrier run stupid mob through it exploiting. Even using shield block and the mobs do same stupid pattern. What do you think strategy is, finding the weak point of your opponent and using it against them. If the mobs weak point is they are dumb oh well not my problem. What Exploiting to me is simple- breaking the game to reach your goal, not by accident, but doing it just for that goal. Lets say like running a mob to certain point know it bugs out. Also another exploiting factor would be using a safe spot that should not exist to kill the mob from. There plenty of humans out there can not figure out stuff and using this knowledge to defeat them accomplish my goal is exploiting? I call it out smarting them.

a good zerger is asked once to slow down and does then leaves the party when the mission is done and trys never to party with you again.

Depends or they moving at a livable pace or like a rioted Snell. I sorry do not have the patience to deal with the later, I have tried.

I'd think the dislike is because the zerger's speed and knowledge is requiring the other teammates to keep up with him or else they will miss out on enjoying some of the adventure content.

Reality is if that is true, move to group do it your speed or find a dam way to keep up and get these stupid post of the forums already. See again if wanted to act the HERO AS SO MANY PLACE IT HERE, WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD TELL YOU TO LEAVE MY GROUP GO SOMEWHERE YOUR SPEED. It real easy reason for it because human nature gets people zealous and then have to hate what they can not understand. I do not understand slow players, but do not hate them. I just want to avoid them. So many slow players thing fast players do not use tactics, it's not about the tactics it's more about I use attack strategies. Move fast catch the enemy off balance and keep it that way. If I have to slow down of course I will, I want to win after all. Like I said before if join my group deal with it. If I join yours will slow down a bit.

there is a difference between fast play and zerg play. a fast player spends 5 min killing everything, a zerg doesnt start killing until the end or when the group behind gets too hard to handle. so far when i posted lfm stating slow run, no zerg bothered to join up

sometimes things make me wonder....

See I disagree with this, people that play fast tend to zerg to. It not about killing or whatever, it just gotten to the point I know kill ever dumb creature. Lets see if we can do only killing the boss, ect... Reality more and more zerging comes from dead tired and bored of the stupid nuisance that is not a challenge anymore. Do I die soloing while running through a dungeon, sure I am human after all. Does it matter to me not one bit, I love pushing the envelope. One quest just comes from if kill the stupid stuff it takes way to long do not have that time to spend on one stupid quest.

[Lewcipher]

Exploiter (guilty here, we all have done this): runs to end of quest and gains xp/loot using various methods of bypassing aggro (terrain or spell).

Can you please explain how this is exploiting? You can charm, invis, haste, and various other LEGITIMATE tactics to get through a dungeon. Even in PnP you could find inventive ways to get through quests.

[illeatyu]

OK

I think a Zerger is someone who wants to do timed runs of dungeons, to try and beat his own time or his mates times, like we used to do in WOW.

Now im new to all this but as far as I can see there is no issue, if you put in LFM or LFG slow run or No Zergs then they wont join with you, if you want to do a timed run then put in Zerg please.

I don't know where all the venom is coming from imo a knob is a knob and if your running in a group with a knob then throw them out.

[Mithran]

Erroneous definition on your part, OP.

Zerger: Someone who plays Starcraft against Protossers and Humaners.

[bobbryan2]

Erroneous definition on your part, OP.

Zerger: Someone who plays Starcraft against Protossers and Humaners.

Well... someone who rushes another player with zerglings, rather.

[Fenrisulven6]

Wow. I'm glad no one in this thread seems to be taking you seriously.

Wrong. Many are.

What qualifications do you have to even start a thread on a subject you obviously know nothing about.

Thats it Bobby, when you've got nothing, go for the personal attack.

And worse than knowing nothing, what you 'think' you know is totally off.

No, shores is spot on.

The problem is that Zergers here don't see that the "jerks" Impact mentioned define themselves as zergers. And some of you wouldn't be accepted by Zergers as zergers.
One of you even said, in a prior thread "running ahead of the party is justified if you don't die".

Please settle on a definition. Because what I hear is:

We're the Zergers. Those other jerks aren't really zerging, they just say "we're the Zergers"

[Bloodhaven]

I wrote this on another thread but it fits here as well :

I see 4 major game play styles.

To me a Noob is:
a new player who lets you know he is new to the quest, game or class.
someone who can understand and follow instructions.
someone who can learn.
someone who has not yet figured out his/her play style.
someone who asks reasonable questions. <where do I need to go next? Can I pull this lever? What does zerg mean in the LFM?>
a real treasure to the DDO community.

To me a Zerger is:
Someone who knows the quest really well.
Someone who knows his/her toon's abilities really well.
someone who can help complete a quest quickly while not wasting time or resources.
a boon to a party. Not a hindrance.
considers time vs xp/loot when running quests.

To Me a Protoss is:
Someone who knows the quest really well.
Someone who knows his/her toon's abilities really well.
someone who can help complete a quest while not wasting resources.
a boon to a party. Not a hindrance.
considers completeness/xp/loot/ when running quests.

To me a Bad Player is:
Someone who does not follow instructions.
Someone who saw the LFM tag and still will not play to the style specified in the LFM.
someone who does not help complete a quest.
someone who wastes group resources.
a hindrance to the party.
does not consider the other 5 or 11 people in their group when running quests.
is better off as a soulstone.



In most quests I am a zerger. I group with guildys and other people of like mind. I will stick with the group if I am asked to do so. However if the rest of the group is being wasteful and excessively slow I take a look at the names/guilds in the party and try to avoid them in later quests.

I do not enjoy wasting time and resources when there is a faster and less expensive way to complete the quest.

My best friend will be a Noob who will turn into a Protoss. He enjoys getting 100% completeness on all the games he plays. This is not a bad thing. Just the way he enjoys the same content. He will be joining DDO when it goes free to play and I know for a fact that he will want to do all the content on N/H/E for 100% completeness, This means conquest, ransack, traps, doors, side quests, EVERYTHING. His play style is just as valid as Zerger style.

I am willing to go very slow if there are new people in the group and they let it be known. I try not spoil the quest for new players. Most people in DDO are not new and have dun these quests several times.

It is really easy to avoid Zergers <this is not a bad word> Just put it in your LFM. For example

"Coal Chamber No Zergers please" <-- I would avoid this LFM if I am short on time.

It is also realy easy to avoid Protos style players <this is also not a bad word> Just put up an LFM like this:

"Coal Chamber fast" <-- I would join this LFM for sure.


I sometimes get angry tells for putting "Fast" and "Experienced players" in my LFM's. This is there to tell you something about the play style in the group i'm building. If you dont like fast play, do not join these groups.

I see allot of people discribe bad and terible players as zergers. These people are not zergers. These people are just bad players.

Be proud of your play style.

I am a ZERGER and I am PROUD of it.

[bobbryan2]

Wrong. Many are.

And? A definition that only applies to some isn't a very good definition. Your very point of saying "many" proves I'm right. So... I guess you could read this as. Wrong. Even though you're right.

Thats it Bobby, when you've got nothing, go for the personal attack.

Asking for qualifications isn't a personal attack. But nice try. A personal attack would be saying that only posts to bask in the glory of stating his own opinion, and that he's selfish because he forces everyone to read his drivel. But yes... call 'me' the one that is resorting to personal attacks.

No, shores is spot on.

The problem is that Zergers here don't see that the "jerks" Impact mentioned define themselves as zergers. And some of you wouldn't be accepted by Zergers as zergers.
One of you even said, in a prior thread "running ahead of the party is justified if you don't die".

Please settle on a definition. Because what I hear is:

Settle on a definition? Defining playstyles that mean different things to everyone is obviously futile.

At least when most people try to define zergers, they don't start with the conclusion, and use the definition to justify it. It's circular logic.

Why are zergers hated?

Because zergers eat babies.

That's why zergers are hated.

Oh yes.... we all feel enlightened.

[illeatyu]

Abviously there are a few very different views on Zergers and Non Zergers.

Obviously you are never going to agree with each other.

Both play styles are valid.

Both opinions are valid.

So why not grow up and just not play together, its what we adults do, if I don't want to play with you I don't if I do I do.

It's realy rather simple.

[spifflove]

Can you please explain how this is exploiting? You can charm, invis, haste, and various other LEGITIMATE tactics to get through a dungeon. Even in PnP you could find inventive ways to get through quests.

For example if the dungeon has a jump down point where mobs cannot follow you most people will simply run to that point and jump down and perhaps start questing from there. Perhaps to protect themselves they will use haste and spam web as they go.

In pnp its more of a legitimate tactic because you aren't running to the known area and if you were forced from an area and came back more prepared you will quickly learn that the mobs are also more prepared. They can adapt. You arent' handed a map of the area with mob strongpoints beforehand.

In permadeath there is always the chance you get held, can't open that door, etc. You risk something.

Now if it were me I would solve the problem by setting up ambushes at these known exploiter waypoints if too much ai is active.

Invisibility does not activate ai.

[bobbryan2]

For example if the dungeon has a jump down point where mobs cannot follow you most people will simply run to that point and jump down and perhaps start questing from there. Perhaps to protect themselves they will use haste and spam web as they go.

In pnp its more of a legitimate tactic because you aren't running to the known area and if you were forced from an area and came back more prepared you will quickly learn that the mobs are also more prepared. They can adapt. You arent' handed a map of the area with mob strongpoints beforehand.

In permadeath there is always the chance you get held, can't open that door, etc. You risk something.

Now if it were me I would solve the problem by setting up ambushes at these known exploiter waypoints if too much ai is active.

Invisibility does not activate ai.

That doesn't exactly answer his question. Exploiting is a term that carries a lot of baggage in MMOs and video games in general. It means using bugs and glitches to cheat.

Running past creatures is not an example of using glitches to our advantage. You could make the case that it's an example of using poor game design... but that's not technically an exploit.

[spifflove]

Well... someone who rushes another player with zerglings, rather.

I rush with behomoths! And if a humaner I send in my 7 minute nuker ghost!

[spifflove]

That doesn't exactly answer his question. Exploiting is a term that carries a lot of baggage in MMOs and video games in general. It means using bugs and glitches to cheat.

Running past creatures is not an example of using glitches to our advantage. You could make the case that it's an example of using poor game design... but that's not technically an exploit.

Its hard for the designers because to adapt to unwanted tactics takes alot of resources. Yet if dungeons could adapt that would increase everyone's experience.
[does not mean the skull system is the answer]




Combat is glory. [if risk is involved]

No matter what the odds, fight until the very end. [ie no quitters]