5/1 Philosophy

[Yargore]

Saying that it's as silly implies that they are on the same level. That's false.

Using a shield is the greatest mistake. In second place comes using a greatsword and finally is using a greataxe. While all three are mistakes, they are not on the same level.

Yes, TWF does more DPS... But if TWF is a 10 on the damage scale, THF (especially on frenzied berzerker barbarian in Mod 9) is an 7.5 while using a shield is a 5....

7.5 is not as a good as a 10, but still better than a 5....

While you both are correct, that was not really what I meant (although I agree that I implied it, and both your posts are wellfounded).
A builds sillyness factor is highly subjective

[Aranticus]

Nay, I advocate fun via team-play and mutual aid.

team play and mutual aid is about a group of players playing as a group, each contributing as much as he/she can. its not about dragging a piece of s*** along.

[bobbryan2]

Nay, I advocate fun via team-play and mutual aid.

Uh... no you don't. You are telling people it's ok if they can't help because 5 other people in the party will do the quest without you.

That's not mutual aid...

[Ralmeth]

Nay, I advocate fun via team-play and mutual aid.

Perhaps that's what you meant, but that is not what you wrote. Just to refresh your memory...

5/1 Philosophy: The belief that no matter how gimp or nerfed your character is, there will be 5 others (11 in raids) in the party that will aid you in your quest via team-work.

I read this as, 'it's okay to be a leech on the party because everyone else will be able to pick up your slack.'

[quintuss]

5/1 Philosophy: The belief that no matter how gimp or nerfed your character is, there will be 5 others (11 in raids) in the party that will aid you in your quest via team-work.

Well you could say that this statement is aimed at trying to excuse the shortcomings of the OP's chars, but the following sentences imho are hinting at the real purpose of his post:

I think this is a good philosophy for new players who may be concerned about the effectiveness of their character, for people who's computers may be slower than others, for people who do not know the quests or are improperly equipped. This is also good for any other "alternative" builds that may not be as effective as they could have been.

It has allowed me to accept others, whether they are new to the game, or whether their playstyle is different.

If you really try, you could read this post as an excuse for bad builds or bad playstyle.
I read this post as an encouragement for new or unsecure players to try grouping without being to concerned about not knowing all stuff like the back of their hands or not having "uber builds".

I have a friend who started playing DDO quite a while after i did and while he is a fairly competent player, he always soloed when i was not around coz he was afraid he might fail the group. It's people like him this post is aimed at.
(At least thats what i read out of it)

I'm not quite sure why everybody jumps at the OP like this because i don't think it was meant the way, most of you like to understand it.... just my two cents.

[SableShadow]

I'm not quite sure why everybody jumps at the OP like this because i don't think it was meant the way, most of you like to understand it.... just my two cents.

The ironic thing is, the majority of the posters against understand, and do, 5/1.

The problem, as Yurgore so succinctly put it, is the appearance of advocating free riders.

If the OP wants to rewrite to say "6 casually equipped and played characters can complete almost any quest in the game through teamwork and mutual aid, so don't be afraid to join or start groups" then I'll sign on no problem. I hazard a guess the majority of posters currently against would also sign on.

[bobbryan2]

The ironic thing is, the majority of the posters against understand, and do, 5/1.

The problem, as Yurgore so succinctly put it, is the appearance of advocating free riders.

If the OP wants to rewrite to say "6 casually equipped and played characters can complete almost any quest in the game through teamwork and mutual aid, so don't be afraid to join or start groups" then I'll sign on no problem. I hazard a guess the majority of posters currently against would also sign on.

While I think most would agree with that, and I probably would too... I find myself questioning all this talk of 'team-work.'

The truth is... team work is derived from everyone doing their share. So... if there are 5 other gimps in the party... then sure... everyone's doing their share. But if there are 5 other people in the quest that can solo it if need be... what exactly is the 6th contributing?

There's no teamwork there. If you can't do anything on your own... what makes people think they're doing something in a group? Obviously this isn't always true.. and some builds are designed purely for aiding others and contribute almost nothing to actually beating the mission, but in propping up those that do. That's a 'form' of teamwork... but it's one I usually try to avoid as well.

Things like buffing bards, heal-bot clerics, or 6 str TWF that think they're actually contributing by doing no damage but destructing all the enemies. Those are just types of builds that bother me... because they could be so much more with a little more focus.

[Ralmeth]

If the OP wants to rewrite to say "6 casually equipped and played characters can complete almost any quest in the game through teamwork and mutual aid, so don't be afraid to join or start groups" then I'll sign on no problem. I hazard a guess the majority of posters currently against would also sign on.

I agree. Teamwork and good leadership can get most groups through most quests in the game. I also think, at least in my opinion, that it's much more fun to play this way (whether you're zerging or taking your time). This implies though that everyone is being a team player and helping out the team as best as they can (whether they are uber or not). It's fine, at least in my groups, if someone is newer to the game, doesn't have all the top-end gear, etc, but what I do expect is that everyone communicates and helps the team. Freeloaders and leaches, by definition, are not going to be helping, so they can go join a different group IMHO.

[Narmolanya]

You forget another type of gimped player. The kind that I am ATM. One that has bben drinking to much. Are you going to do a sobriety check when forming you parties?

[Aranticus]

I agree. Teamwork and good leadership can get most groups through most quests in the game. I also think, at least in my opinion, that it's much more fun to play this way (whether you're zerging or taking your time). This implies though that everyone is being a team player and helping out the team as best as they can (whether they are uber or not). It's fine, at least in my groups, if someone is newer to the game, doesn't have all the top-end gear, etc, but what I do expect is that everyone communicates and helps the team. Freeloaders and leaches, by definition, are not going to be helping, so they can go join a different group IMHO.

let me recount what happened yesterday. my guildie cleric was new to reaver and did not know how to get a charge where to stand etc. as it was a short man, we failed but i'm happy as he learned something. in the second attempt, everything he did was perfect. he got the charge, he healed, he layed bb to complement the firewalls

this is what teamwork is about. the vets understanding the newbies are green and help them as much as they can without hand holding them. it would have been pointless if we told him "bud, no worries, just stay where you are, no need to do anything". if this is so, he wouldnt learn anything

i pointed out all the mistakes and flaws, and how he can work on them which he readily picked up. its important that a newbie learns to accept criticism and advice. you can go "i'm new, i can learn slowly" and be a liability to the party or you can just plunge into the deep end and say "why not, i rather it be sooner than later"

this is teamwork. teamwork is not about "heh, my build cant dps but no worries, i'm gonna stick with SnB because i like it and let the other 5 carry most of the dps burden"

[Mr_Ed7]

In defense of the other side I would like to say:



We are here to help others. If we are here to help others, then what are the others here for?


I saw this quote and thought of my forum naysayers.

It is true I have always had this philosophy, and while according to the opinion of some; I may have a character that is not as effective as it could be, but to say that I personally do not pull my own weight should be a hard pill for many to swallow considering I have been playing for 3 years, have several capped characters, and lead a guild.

Does this sound like someone who is likely to allow for "leeching" from others let alone himself?

[Aranticus]

It is true I have always had this philosophy, and while according to the opinion of some; I may have a character that is not as effective as it could be,

on khyber we have a player with a 400+ hp 16sorc with 2 metas, all toughness, a 500+ hp cleric with 1 meta and all toughness and a 600+ hp fighter with god knows even more toughness

but to say that I personally do not pull my own weight should be a hard pill for many to swallow considering I have been playing for 3 years,

he has played for a long time

have several capped characters,

has several capped characters

and lead a guild.

if i understand correctly, made his own guild

Does this sound like someone who is likely to allow for "leeching" from others let alone himself?

he doesnt pull his weight in raids and more often than not, alot of khyberians avoids the raids he lead like plague. those that successfully form usually has success at a heavy cost. a guildie was in shroud he led, 40 major pots was used

[SableShadow]

We are here to help others. If we are here to help others, then what are the others here for?

I saw this quote and thought of my forum naysayers.

There is a difference between advocating helping others and advocating that others remain people who need to be helped. It isn't even true, for the most part...

"All you need to cap is time on your hands" - Black_Scourge, Void-Walkers/Corruption

Newbies become vets, gear gets ground, quests get learned, and if you don't suck, you used to.

It is true I have always had this philosophy, and while according to the opinion of some; I may have a character that is not as effective as it could be, but to say that I personally do not pull my own weight should be a hard pill for many to swallow considering I have been playing for 3 years, have several capped characters, and lead a guild.

Does this sound like someone who is likely to allow for "leeching" from others let alone himself?

I don't know you; I probably have grouped with you at one time or another, but I don't know you.

"Don't worry about it, there will always be someone there to pull you through" just seems horrid advice to give anyone...I'd have said "Don't worry about it, keep trying, you'll get it eventually."

[Cowdenicus]

While I think most would agree with that, and I probably would too... I find myself questioning all this talk of 'team-work.'

The truth is... team work is derived from everyone doing their share. So... if there are 5 other gimps in the party... then sure... everyone's doing their share. But if there are 5 other people in the quest that can solo it if need be... what exactly is the 6th contributing?

There's no teamwork there. If you can't do anything on your own... what makes people think they're doing something in a group? Obviously this isn't always true.. and some builds are designed purely for aiding others and contribute almost nothing to actually beating the mission, but in propping up those that do. That's a 'form' of teamwork... but it's one I usually try to avoid as well.

Things like buffing bards, heal-bot clerics, or 6 str TWF that think they're actually contributing by doing no damage but destructing all the enemies. Those are just types of builds that bother me... because they could be so much more with a little more focus.

There aint nothing wrong with a heal bot / casting cleric. Sure I could pull out my longsword and burn my one turn attempt to give myself proficiency and get in there and swing for a few points of damage, but is that really as effective as a maximized empowered blade barrier?

Do your barbarians and other melee types want to sit there and watch me train mobs through the blade barrier, because I can guarantee after the second or third hit by the blade barrier you rpobably are not pulling agro off me (unless you have a really good intimidate.)

What is your opinion on a 40+ strength triple raged TWF?

[Raithe]

The truth is... team work is derived from everyone doing their share.

Most people, including me, would not use the term "share." Share implies that everyone is given an equal amount of labor and they have to accomplish precisely that amount or be considered lacking. Work shares are usually affiliated with manual and dislikable chores like shoveling snow, weeding gardens, garbage pickup, etc.

The correct term would be "role." Teamwork is derived from everyone fulfilling a particular role. Notice that with this definition, when someone is running ahead and killing things before anyone else has a chance to help, that someone is failing at teamwork.

So... if there are 5 other gimps in the party... then sure... everyone's doing their share. But if there are 5 other people in the quest that can solo it if need be... what exactly is the 6th contributing?

Notice the change here. Since we are now correctly talking about roles, instead of shares, the 5 people who can solo the quest need to make sure to allow the 6th player to fulfill his role to some degree. If they don't, they are the slackers that need to be booted.

There's no teamwork there. If you can't do anything on your own...

Ahh the bipolarity of the min/maxxer. Everything is either good, or it's horrible:

1) You are either a healer, or you aren't.
2) You either have really good DPS, or you are worthless as a melee.
3) You either have the best bard songs possible, or you aren't contributing
4) You either can solo the quest, or you are a pile-on

Sorry, that's not how it works. In fact, generalists are good to have in any group because they pull the average up. Overall they are usually better than the average specialist and have more abilities to conform to the demands of the environment. Specialists are, of course, still very useful in a team for fulfilling roles in a symbiotic fashion.

Note that if everyone played the zerger/metagamer "equal shares" mentality, then everyone should build some sort of wizard/rogue or pally/sorc hybrid. They can simply do the most in any quest. The fact that these are not that popular tells me that most of this "equal shares" nonsense is smoke and mirrors. It's a sharade that someone decided to use for the purpose of denigrating others they consider to be lower in the MMO pecking order.

Things like buffing bards, heal-bot clerics, or 6 str TWF that think they're actually contributing by doing no damage but destructing all the enemies. Those are just types of builds that bother me... because they could be so much more with a little more focus.

When I first started playing the game I would heal everyone when we weren't in combat. On my rangers I would use wands, on my other characters I would UMD scrolls. On my main character I could also disable traps, pick locks, and imitate a lesser caster when DPS-ing bosses like the Marut and House P Vampire. I did this mainly because I was somewhat insecure about the quests and didn't want to have the group fail and sometimes I stepped on other player's toes in the process.

After 3 years of running the same quests over and over I no longer try to do everything. I let people take care of themselves as much as possible, and I basically only feel obligated to prevent them from dying. Just because I can do more doesn't mean that I should. Teamwork is about letting others take part, especially for a seasoned veteran.

[Cowdenicus]

/snip
Teamwork is about letting others take part, especially for a seasoned veteran.

and pwning noobs with my balls of fire.

[SableShadow]

I think this section is a little extreme...

Notice the change here. Since we are now correctly talking about roles, instead of shares, the 5 people who can solo the quest need to make sure to allow the 6th player to fulfill his role to some degree. If they don't, they are the slackers that need to be booted.

...but I agree with the weaker statement "Doing everything for a player who currently can't doesn't allow him to learn and grow. This helps no one."

I can't comment on what Bob was or wasn't trying to say, but I think your post is a "must read" on DDO game play.

[Mr_Ed7]

he doesnt pull his weight in raids and more often than not, alot of khyberians avoids the raids he lead like plague. those that successfully form usually has success at a heavy cost. a guildie was in shroud he led, 40 major pots was used

Good thing I am not on Khyber!

[Dexxaan]

In defense of the other side I would like to say:



We are here to help others. If we are here to help others, then what are the others here for?


I saw this quote and thought of my forum naysayers.

It is true I have always had this philosophy, and while according to the opinion of some; I may have a character that is not as effective as it could be, but to say that I personally do not pull my own weight should be a hard pill for many to swallow considering I have been playing for 3 years, have several capped characters, and lead a guild.

Does this sound like someone who is likely to allow for "leeching" from others let alone himself?

You've already proved and accepted your acceptance of sub-par help me gimp along with my guild in in past posts... a lil late to be trying to plaster a different image of "Mother Teresaness".

he doesnt pull his weight in raids and more often than not, alot of khyberians avoids the raids he lead like plague. those that successfully form usually has success at a heavy cost. a guildie was in shroud he led, 40 major pots was used

Theres a good example of what your argument holds.....

Good thing I am not on Khyber!

Darn! That means you could be on Sarlona? Nah... I would have sniffed you by now. Your probably on poor Ghallanda...or are all of your toons on Argo?

[Mr_Ed7]

You've already proved and accepted your acceptance of sub-par help me gimp along with my guild in in past posts... a lil late to be trying to plaster a different image of "Mother Teresaness".



Theres a good example of what your argument holds.....



Darn! That means you could be on Sarlona? Nah... I would have sniffed you by now. Your probably on poor Ghallanda...or are all of your toons on Argo?

Yes I just want others to accept me as I am...shield and all.