The Punisher Build

[Valezra]

I told you so. :P

Yeah but this just makes you look like even more of a jerk. Also, your 548 DPS and 490 DPS numbers are completely imaginary. You can go on pretending you'll hit those numbers but it's preposterous. I even gave you the +8 Strength from Power Surge as if you could keep that up all the time and the Monster still doesn't come close to your numbers.

You didn't prove me wrong because your own numbers are skewed and flatly wrong. I proved to myself the DPS spread of the two builds and posted the results honestly.

This isn't a Monster DPS thread so I'm not going to argue the intricacies of the Monster DPS but suffice to say that I am not going to believe any of the garbage the Monster fanbois spew now that I know they aren't even working with real math.

Val

[Valezra]

I'd almost say go 6 levels of ranger for tempest1, you'd come very close to beating the monster.

I tried this. Once you already have Zeal, gaining Tempest I adds very little to the DPS.

I ran the calcs though because I thought the same thing.

Against 0 fortification the current Punisher does about 28 more DPS. Against 50% fortifiation the Punisher and the Tempest/KoTC do exactly the same. Against 100% fort the Tempest/KotC does about 43 more DPS.

The Tempest/KotC does a little less than the Monster if not considering boosts at all. If looking at the 5 minute fight the Monster does about 40 DPS more average across all fortifications.

The 12 Fighter has been made very strong with Kensai and Haste Boosts. The fact that it takes only 6 Ranger to get the same speed boost as 14 Paladin makes it hard to do a primary paladin build. I have some ideas I am still working on.

Val

[Kriogen]

.... I have some ideas I am still working on.

Val

Paladin 9 for max DF
Paladin 10 for DM II
Paladin 12 for PrE 2
Paladin 14 for Zeal
Paladin 15 for DM III
Paladin 18 for PrE 3
Paladin 20 for Capstone

Paladin 15/Rogue 5 or Paladin 15/Rogue3/Fighter 2?

[Kriogen]

how about proving it? i asked aax for this in the monster thread, i asked you for it a week ago. i would ask yargore, but he would just ask you to do it. care to prove it or should we keep dreaming of the as-of-yet unproven unknown benefits of this otherwise useless feat? make us a video wyatt earp, please.

Quick Draw works as described by Absolute-Omniscience. It works like that since long long time, years.

It's one of the best feature. But only if you use it. Its very playstyle/build specific feature. It's usefull for builds with lots of "clickies" or something like a build that generates hate by intimidate and damage at the same time.

Video? How, it's less then a seconds. Can't see that, but you can feel it if you have a build that uses those "clickies" alot.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Quick Draw works as described by Absolute-Omniscience. It works like that since long long time, years.

It's one of the best feature. But only if you use it. Its very playstyle/build specific feature. It's usefull for builds with lots of "clickies" or something like a build that generates hate by intimidate and damage at the same time.

Video? How, it's less then a seconds. Can't see that, but you can feel it if you have a build that uses those "clickies" alot.

Thank you.
Finally someone that knows how it works.

I think it will be hard to show in a vid, but I will try to get one posted as soon as mod 9 hits and I aquire it on my Ravager. Until then, you'll have to believe me or ignore me Kingfisher; or just try it yourself.

I tried this. Once you already have Zeal, gaining Tempest I adds very little to the DPS.

Tempest always gives the same boost, as it's a static +10% attackspeed (+10% dps), +/- a per mille or two following Cforce's attackspeed estimator.

[Yargore]

Yeah but this just makes you look like even more of a jerk. Also, your 548 DPS and 490 DPS numbers are completely imaginary. You can go on pretending you'll hit those numbers but it's preposterous. I even gave you the +8 Strength from Power Surge as if you could keep that up all the time and the Monster still doesn't come close to your numbers.

You didn't prove me wrong because your own numbers are skewed and flatly wrong. I proved to myself the DPS spread of the two builds and posted the results honestly.

This isn't a Monster DPS thread so I'm not going to argue the intricacies of the Monster DPS but suffice to say that I am not going to believe any of the garbage the Monster fanbois spew now that I know they aren't even working with real math.

Val

548 DPS is what the monster will have during the hasteboost, I know that is not an accurate estimation of a characters DPS and that's what I've been trying to tell you. You were the one using haste boost 100% and saying that it's accurate.

If you can't keep up a 1 min boost with 8 charges all the time you fail miserably. I keep myself hasted with pots all the time when a haster is not around, and guess what, those only last 30 sec.

I would love to see your calcs, as I believe that you once again have messed up. My calcs are solid and they are also over 5 minutes.

Oh, where did you post the results? Must have missed them.

Don't be so fast to judge, you have been wrong before and you'll see that have simply made another mistake if you dare to post your calcs.

[Demoyn]

I see some of the "Monster" fanboi's have taken to following Val around on a crusade of sorts.

You may recall me being the first person in this thread to mention the Monster being better than this build still (in DPS, at least). I'm far from a Monster fanboi. In fact, I've probably attacked the Monster more than any other person on these forums, but math is math and facts are facts.

[Thrudh]

People were saying how you couldn't rely on DS and DM...but haste boost can count? Just seemed kinda funny.

Yeah I think that's pretty funny too... DM is huge, and DS is pretty sweet too... Heck, even Smites matter... in a short 1 Round Pit Fiend fight, those Exalted Smites add up to some serious damage, and make the paladin one of the top contributors...

Paladins do good DPS NOW... In Mod 9, against evil outsiders, they'll do top-notch DPS with another 6d6 (KoTC and capstone) per swing.

[Yargore]

You may recall me being the first person in this thread to mention the Monster being better than this build still (in DPS, at least). I'm far from a Monster fanboi. In fact, I've probably attacked the Monster more than any other person on these forums, but math is math and facts are facts.

Aye, this is no place for bias.

[GentleHell]

Reading down the thread there seems to be some handbags thrown about, but ty to Valezra for putting up a decent alternative to the Monster for DPS.

Also, I hope everyone realises that strafing left instead of right makes more difference than poorly concocted DPS numbers i.e. 300 may as well equal 600 the way these things are done.

[Riorik]

I understand all ya'll need something to do during the 12 month downtime Turbine gave us when they opted to build in F2P instead of advancing us to level 20 before the end of 2008

I also understand how the haste boost works...I've seen the delay...I understand about Quickdraw, etc etc.

I too find it hilarious to read all the hardcore "die die, kill you all, you are wrong" posts that often discuss scenario's that aren't quite equivalent...mostly true, but with a tiny bit of subjective non-fact based information thrown in that often skews everything...often to prove something.

I'm a math kind of guy...I was analyzing & powergaming DnD, Champions, etc back in the 80's. This kind of analysis was "childs play" considering those were my teen years. And, I find all of them incredibly Flawed.

They're all premised on a fixed game system and personal valuation of what you can afford to give up to go for the pre-Mod9 Holy Grail of DDO...DPS. A lot of builds, the Monster included, have abilities keyed to pre-Mod9...things like having their saving throws just high enough to avoid the (then known) mod8 difficult points...and we now know that Harry in Segment5 gets a new favorite ability that changes the requirements. Wanna guess if he starts to dispel you too, soon? Disjunction if you all farm boots? I'm not saying that dispel/disjunction happens/will happen...I'm just saying...think about the foundation of your argument and how EASY and SIMPLE it would be to remove it. Some like to wear blinders and say "it won't happen". It seems rather obvious that this way of thinking is naive.

Personally, I think the Monster sacrificed too much to get to where it (thinks it is)...builds like the Punisher even if they are a small percentage lower DPS, may have double the survivability given equal playing (twitch) skill. Good luck arguing the (moot) technical points of whether you're 1-5% more DPS or not.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Personally, I think the Monster sacrificed too much to get to where it (thinks it is)...builds like the Punisher even if they are a small percentage lower DPS, may have double the survivability given equal playing (twitch) skill. Good luck arguing the (moot) technical points of whether you're 1-5% more DPS or not.

Compare the ac, the builds are pretty much equal in survivability. The Monster have a lot higher ac, wf immunities being healed by two classes etc, this build has UMD scroll healing.

Just counting survivability and I'd still go with the monster, as it has a lot higher ac and wouldn't have to heal scroll 3 times a battle. Thus equalling a lot higher "solo" dps.

[Thrudh]

Compare the ac, the builds are pretty much equal in survivability. The Monster have a lot higher ac, wf immunities being healed by two classes etc, this build has UMD scroll healing.

Just counting survivability and I'd still go with the monster, as it has a lot higher ac and wouldn't have to heal scroll 3 times a battle. Thus equalling a lot higher "solo" dps.

Does the Monster have evasion?

[Yargore]

They're all premised on a fixed game system and personal valuation of what you can afford to give up to go for the pre-Mod9 Holy Grail of DDO...DPS. A lot of builds, the Monster included, have abilities keyed to pre-Mod9...things like having their saving throws just high enough to avoid the (then known) mod8 difficult points...and we now know that Harry in Segment5 gets a new favorite ability that changes the requirements. Wanna guess if he starts to dispel you too, soon? Disjunction if you all farm boots? I'm not saying that dispel/disjunction happens/will happen...I'm just saying...think about the foundation of your argument and how EASY and SIMPLE it would be to remove it. Some like to wear blinders and say "it won't happen". It seems rather obvious that this way of thinking is naive.

What's your point?
That DPS calcs are not exact?
That the game can change?

I think everyone have figured that out by now.

[kingfisher]

Aye, this is no place for bias.

what are you a ****ing pirate?

[Aspenor]

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[Yargore]

what are you a ****ing pirate?

I'm not biased.
I admit when I'm wrong, and I often change my minds regarding builds.

But I do wish I were I Pirate! Yar har!

[Yargore]

Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster

is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great
But I prefer The Ravager:P

[kingfisher]

But I do wish I were I Pirate! Yar har!

AYE, i can tell. shiver me timbers and blow me down matey. yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum.

[Valezra]

I would love to see your calcs, as I believe that you once again have messed up. My calcs are solid and they are also over 5 minutes.

Oh, where did you post the results? Must have missed them.

Don't be so fast to judge, you have been wrong before and you'll see that have simply made another mistake if you dare to post your calcs.

Instead of me doing all the math why don't YOU show us the exact math to reach 548 DPS and 490 DPS. It is my opinion that the responsibility is on you to prove your build's DPS.

And for the record, my math hasn't been off one ounce this whole time. I made 2 mistakes:

1. I used DM III in my original build in liue of DM II.
2. I assumed the 490 DPS you claimed was during your 20s Haste Boost and was comparing my own 20 second haste boost against it.

Once I corrected MY numbers to reflect DM II my DPS dropped by a small amount which was to be expected. Nothing else besides DM II is wrong in my calcs... which are in the OP. (I will update them in a few)

Put your math where your mouth is and prove the Monster's DPS.

Val