The Punisher Build

[Yargore]

I have never insulted you. Your calcs are "indeed" wrong. Perhaps its that "new" math they are teaching at alternative education schools? <-- there I threw that in to make you a martyr since you insist on claiming I've been insulting you.

Val

That's not what I meant.
Kingfisher said that you should insult me, and I said that you shouldn't insult me, but thank me instead.

I can see how it is easy to misunderstand it, so I apologize.

[Valezra]

Monster saves:

Your saves:

You have 2 more will save, that's it. Though you will be able to enhance yours more. Either way, both have enough to save on everything except a 2. Except ref save for traps.



Indeed, point for punisher. (recall that everyone can use potions though)



Monster has 58 selfbuffed ac
Punisher has 54 self buffed ac
That's 20% on a d20 roll.

Monk Uncentered bonus is infact not working correctly. It gives +1 ac even if you aren't Uncentered. Ask anyone.



Paladin is immune to fear and disease.

So
Fear vs sleep, energy drain (enervation!), disease, exhaustion, poison, Nausea, and paralysis (hold!)
Wf is clearly superior. Especially as GH gives immunity to fear.

You also forgot to mention that the Monster can be healed
85% divine casters (a bit behind, but hardly noticable)
100% arcane (This is a GREAT boost, if you've every played a WF you'd know)



Yeh, indeed. The monster will probably pull aggro, though both will have aggro in solo and in solo alone will survivability matter; as both have more than enough of it in raids and parties. With the Monster at peak due to being able to dps-tank suulo easier etc.


To who ever asked:
Yes, the Monster has got evasion. 2 levels of monk remember?

Link to Monster
http://community.codemasters.com/for...&postcount=188

1. The punisher saves are higher and can be boosted WAY higher than the Monster via AP which the build has available. I doubt 30ish saves are gonna cut it in mod9+ for melee DPS builds. Some of the trap saves and Elite boss saves in current content already requires over 30 save.

2. The Monster has 51 self buffed AC. I got that from the link you posted. You just blatantly lied about that. If you want to count a 60 second Shield clicky for +2 AC have fun carrying a bag full of clickies. And if you want to count double madstone then I guess I get to as well which puts the Punisher at 58 AC vs the Monster's 56 AC... shield clickies... lol

3. There is no real big difference in saves. Deathward can be cast by the Paladin and poison immunity items abound so you have no argument on those items. The only thing the WF gets a tip of the hat to is paralysis immunity.

4. So you can be healed by casters? That may be a little icing on the cake but it's hardly something to boast. The folks that will be mass curing and healing you the most will always have to dump a lil more into you because of the 85% efficiency. Not a game breaker but don't try and flip it around as if WF are easier to keep up because a caster can heal them.

5. DPS tank suulo? LoL... I didn't know we were building tanks. In that case I'll put my Hatetank up against the Monster ANY day of the week for tanking. But seriously, we're talking DPS toons, not soloist, and not tanks.

Val

[Valezra]

Acid blast = Same burst effect as acid burst and an aditional 4d6 on 20s.

I can't find this anywhere and I have never seen it work like that. Could be an oversight on my part but I doubt it.

I disagree with your other responses. You also don't mention how you'll stay double madstoned while not holding aggro and getting SA. It can only be one or the other.

Val

[Comfortably]

To quote DDOWIKI;

# Elemental Blast (Fire, Ice, Shocking, Acid): 1d10 * (critical multiplier -1) on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal

• 2x multiplier = 1d10 on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal
• 3x multiplier = 2d10 on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal
• 4x multiplier = 3d10 on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal

[Riorik]

Acid blast = Same burst effect as acid burst and an aditional 4d6 on 20s.

I don't agree with counting +7 songs.

Nope and nope.

Was this like how in DnD you can "attempt to disbelieve" things you hope are illusions?

I'm a little curious...Comfortably seems to be politely stating that you're using the wrong amount for Acid Burst...on a x3 Khopesh it should be 2d10, not 4d6 (right?)

You're choosing to use +9 songs even though the OP identified he was using +7 songs...which makes your calculations based on different assumptions (I'd call that technically wrong) and you're saying you don't agree?!?

And then apparently Valezra points out that you're using completely different assumptions on things like being double-madstone ALL the time. I'm willing to agree that single madstone may be fair, but double? You can have 20 sets of boots...but once you're madstoned off a PROC, you can't trigger the boots for the clickie version. This guarantees some sort of downtime from being able to maintain DOUBLE madstone.

And lastly, you're just claiming you don't agree with the conclusions that you did anything wrong?

lmao...uh, dude? So I think the term EPIC FAIL is a bit strong...but it does seem like some errors were actually made. I don't think only a really nice DM would let you even attempt to disbelieve again...but if it's actually real, even that doesn't help much.

[Yargore]

I can't find this anywhere and I have never seen it work like that. Could be an oversight on my part but I doubt it.

I disagree with your other responses. You also don't mention how you'll stay double madstoned while not holding aggro and getting SA. It can only be one or the other.

Val

I guess you never had an acid blast weapon then. Don't bo so quick to say that I'm wrong when you actually don't know what you're talking about.

I don't stay double madstoned all the time. I explained where I got the extra str from:
"Nay, they assume a +4 str tome. Using +1 str on DT armor until you get one in mod 9 works perfectly fine aswell (that's infact what I had on my DT armor on my Monster on the EU server)".

Disagree all you want, it's still correct.

I prefer to use 9 damage songs in my calcs to show the potential DPS, so what? It hardly makes the calcs wrong.

[Yargore]

Was this like how in DnD you can "attempt to disbelieve" things you hope are illusions?

I'm a little curious...Comfortably seems to be politely stating that you're using the wrong amount for Acid Burst...on a x3 Khopesh it should be 2d10, not 4d6 (right?)

You're choosing to use +9 songs even though the OP identified he was using +7 songs...which makes your calculations based on different assumptions (I'd call that technically wrong) and you're saying you don't agree?!?

And then apparently Valezra points out that you're using completely different assumptions on things like being double-madstone ALL the time. I'm willing to agree that single madstone may be fair, but double? You can have 20 sets of boots...but once you're madstoned off a PROC, you can't trigger the boots for the clickie version. This guarantees some sort of downtime from being able to maintain DOUBLE madstone.

And lastly, you're just claiming you don't agree with the conclusions that you did anything wrong?

lmao...uh, dude? So I think the term EPIC FAIL is a bit strong...but it does seem like some errors were actually made. I don't think only a really nice DM would let you even attempt to disbelieve again...but if it's actually real, even that doesn't help much.

Comfortably shows us that acid blast deal 11 damage (2d10) on every crit and an extra 14(4d6) on 20s. Oh guess what? Thats' EXACTLY what I've used in my calc.

The OP prefer 7 damage, I prefer 9 damage. 2 damage won't change the outcome of the comparison either.
Are you telling me that I'm wrong for using the damage that bard songs actaully gives?

Sigh... Let me quote myself:
"Nay, they assume a +4 str tome. Using +1 str on DT armor until you get one in mod 9 works perfectly fine aswell (that's infact what I had on my DT armor on my Monster on the EU server)".
Where did I mention double madstone? That's right, I didn't.

Epic fail is the correct term to use for your post. Come back when you actually have a clue.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

1. The punisher saves are higher and can be boosted WAY higher than the Monster via AP which the build has available. I doubt 30ish saves are gonna cut it in mod9+ for melee DPS builds. Some of the trap saves and Elite boss saves in current content already requires over 30 save.

Yes, I already agreed; you can have better saves. But trust me, 30's will be enough in mod 9.

2. The Monster has 51 self buffed AC. I got that from the link you posted. You just blatantly lied about that. If you want to count a 60 second Shield clicky for +2 AC have fun carrying a bag full of clickies. And if you want to count double madstone then I guess I get to as well which puts the Punisher at 58 AC vs the Monster's 56 AC... shield clickies... lol

Read it again 51 is unbuffed, self buffed:
58

Remove shield
56
remove madstone and add barkskin pot (No one said anything about double madstone, please learn how to do ac breakdowns and learn how to count it, as you clearly can not.)
55 self buffed.

3. There is no real big difference in saves. Deathward can be cast by the Paladin and poison immunity items abound so you have no argument on those items. The only thing the WF gets a tip of the hat to is paralysis immunity.

Indeed, saves are pretty equal. Go ahead and fight those beholders will yeh :P. Negative level immunity is the best part of the WF immunities.

4. So you can be healed by casters? That may be a little icing on the cake but it's hardly something to boast. The folks that will be mass curing and healing you the most will always have to dump a lil more into you because of the 85% efficiency. Not a game breaker but don't try and flip it around as if WF are easier to keep up because a caster can heal them.

I think it's great, and it is.

5. DPS tank suulo? LoL... I didn't know we were building tanks. In that case I'll put my Hatetank up against the Monster ANY day of the week for tanking. But seriously, we're talking DPS toons, not soloist, and not tanks.

Val

Attack him, get aggro no one pulls it from you as Monster, you are wf so can be healed by a lone caster = very good for "DPS-tanking" suulo. Ignore it if you will, but then you have never played VOD without an intimidate tank.
Highest possible dps + WF = AWESOME for vod, especially elite when the intimidate DC is through the roof.

We're talking survivability at the moment, and survivability is basically only needed for solo, so...

[Riorik]

Epic fail is the correct term to use for your post.

Glad you agree that you Epic Failed.

[Valezra]

I could go on forever showing you two all the mistakes you continue to make but I'm getting bored of this thread. The build is done... the numbers are up (I will update for the extra blast effect later). Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

Val

[Yargore]

I could go on forever showing you two all the mistakes you continue to make but I'm getting bored of this thread. The build is done... the numbers are up (I will update for the extra blast effect later). Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

Val

I was not the one advocating 100% boost efficiency in the first place, I told you that it was inaccurate!
I only made that calc to compare to your 100% boost efficiency calc. Guess why I also made a calc for 5 minutes?

[kingfisher]

I could go on forever showing you two all the mistakes you continue to make but I'm getting bored of this thread. The build is done... the numbers are up (I will update for the extra blast effect later). Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

Val

i am shocked that these types of shenannigans occer here

[JayDubya]

Hi Yargore. I'm trying to follow the math here, and i have a couple of questions

[QUOTE=Yargore;2304949]Here we go:

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main	off

-------------------------------
63.5	53,5 	Normal
------------------------------
22	22	Effects
-------------------------------
85,5	75,5	Total
-------------------------------
264,5	234,5	Critical
------------------------------

Everything above this makes perfect sense

0	0	Attack 1
...
...
...
278,5	248,5	Attack 20
117,73	104,23	Average
-----------------------------

I didn't actually do the math, but I'm assuming the above averages are correct. It's the section below that has me totally confused. You gloss over a bunch of the details, and I can't reproduce these results by filling in the holes

666,06	666,06	Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83	        83	        Normal
116,25	116,25	Haste/tempest
148,06	148,06	Haste/tempest/Boost

Can you explain this above mechanic?

83 - is this the normal number of swings per minute?

116.25 - this is the number of swings when hasted, with tempest (+25% and +10% respectively for a total of +35%), correct? - but I can't get to 116.25 unless I bring Tempest up to +15%. What am I missing?

148.06 - this is the number of swings in 5 minutes when hasted (+25%), with tempest (+10%) and Boosted II (+20%)? - Again, I can't make those numbers reach 148, unless I get an extra 15% somewhere. So even Boosted III doesn't quite do it.


Lastly:
(8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.

What is this mechanic? Why 8/3 and 7/3 - are these the fractions of 5 minutes you spend in boost vs. in haste? I converted the 8 boosts to 160 seconds, and determined that that represents 53% of a 5 minute period, and then multiplied it out - it came out the same, but I'm curious why you chose 8/3 and 7/3.



Thanks! I'm contemplating making a web application for these kinds of calculations (assuming one doesn't already exist) and I want to make sure I understand all the mechanics.

[baddax]

[quote=JayDubya;2307089]Hi Yargore. I'm trying to follow the math here, and i have a couple of questions

Here we go:

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main    off
 
-------------------------------
63.5    53,5     Normal
------------------------------
22    22    Effects
-------------------------------
85,5    75,5    Total
-------------------------------
264,5    234,5    Critical
------------------------------

Everything above this makes perfect sense

0    0    Attack 1
...
...
...
278,5    248,5    Attack 20
117,73    104,23    Average
-----------------------------

I didn't actually do the math, but I'm assuming the above averages are correct. It's the section below that has me totally confused. You gloss over a bunch of the details, and I can't reproduce these results by filling in the holes

666,06    666,06    Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83            83            Normal
116,25    116,25    Haste/tempest
148,06    148,06    Haste/tempest/Boost

Can you explain this above mechanic?

83 - is this the normal number of swings per minute?

116.25 - this is the number of swings when hasted, with tempest (+25% and +10% respectively for a total of +35%), correct? - but I can't get to 116.25 unless I bring Tempest up to +15%. What am I missing?

148.06 - this is the number of swings in 5 minutes when hasted (+25%), with tempest (+10%) and Boosted II (+20%)? - Again, I can't make those numbers reach 148, unless I get an extra 15% somewhere. So even Boosted III doesn't quite do it.


Lastly:
(8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.

What is this mechanic? Why 8/3 and 7/3 - are these the fractions of 5 minutes you spend in boost vs. in haste? I converted the 8 boosts to 160 seconds, and determined that that represents 53% of a 5 minute period, and then multiplied it out - it came out the same, but I'm curious why you chose 8/3 and 7/3.



Thanks! I'm contemplating making a web application for these kinds of calculations (assuming one doesn't already exist) and I want to make sure I understand all the mechanics.

madstone boots?

[Valezra]

Oh god, are you serious?!

I was not the one advocating 100% boost efficiency in the first place, I told you that it was inaccurate!

Advocating? I already said I used that assumption originally. Why are you yelling again?

I only made that calc to compare to your 100% boost efficiency calc. Guess why I also made a calc for 5 minutes?

A **** hypocrit is what you are.

***EDIT*** not doing this anymore... you have your assumptions I have mine. Have fun with yours I'll have fun with mine.

Val

[Yargore]

Advocating? I already said I used that assumption originally. Why are you yelling again?

Why do you complain about me using 100% boost in the calc that's made to compare you yuor 100% boost calc?
I really don't get that.

"Nah nah nah booboo." What a whiner...

Every time I made an incorrect assumption I admitted it, changed it, and moved on. When we point out absolute flaws in YOUR assumptions however you ignore what we're saying... and you continue to use unrealistic assumptions.

Now you are resorting to flat name calling. LOL... grow up kid.

Val

What is it that I'm ignoring? Please tell me.
Using 100% powersurge is not unrealistic. If you're talking about 100% haste boost you should know that the one and only reason why I made a 100% haste boost calc was because you made one.
Comparing 53% monster to 100% Punisher is not exaclty fair now is it?

I called you a hypocrit for saying that I didn't realise that using 100% haste boost was unrealistic when the only calc you have posted in using 100% haste boost.
I said many times that it was inaccurate and not realistic. So i don't know where you got that I believed that it was from? Care to explain?

[Yargore]

Hi Yargore. I'm trying to follow the math here, and i have a couple of questions

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main	off

-------------------------------
63.5	53,5 	Normal
------------------------------
22	22	Effects
-------------------------------
85,5	75,5	Total
-------------------------------
264,5	234,5	Critical
------------------------------

Everything above this makes perfect sense

0	0	Attack 1
...
...
...
278,5	248,5	Attack 20
117,73	104,23	Average
-----------------------------

I didn't actually do the math, but I'm assuming the above averages are correct. It's the section below that has me totally confused. You gloss over a bunch of the details, and I can't reproduce these results by filling in the holes

666,06	666,06	Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83	        83	        Normal
116,25	116,25	Haste/tempest
148,06	148,06	Haste/tempest/Boost

Can you explain this above mechanic?

83 - is this the normal number of swings per minute?

116.25 - this is the number of swings when hasted, with tempest (+25% and +10% respectively for a total of +35%), correct? - but I can't get to 116.25 unless I bring Tempest up to +15%. What am I missing?

148.06 - this is the number of swings in 5 minutes when hasted (+25%), with tempest (+10%) and Boosted II (+20%)? - Again, I can't make those numbers reach 148, unless I get an extra 15% somewhere. So even Boosted III doesn't quite do it.

The Monster gets haste boost IV, and I used the attack speed increase estimator found here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=cforce.

Lastly:
(8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.

What is this mechanic? Why 8/3 and 7/3 - are these the fractions of 5 minutes you spend in boost vs. in haste? I converted the 8 boosts to 160 seconds, and determined that that represents 53% of a 5 minute period, and then multiplied it out - it came out the same, but I'm curious why you chose 8/3 and 7/3.

I use "Number of haste boosts" / 3 * hasted boosted attack speed + (15- "Number of haste boosts")/3 * unboosted attackspeed.

5 minutes consists of 15 20 second periods and 15/3 minutes = 5 minutes. If 8 of those 20 sec periods are boosted that means that 8/3 of the 5 minutes are boosted.

I use this method because it makes it very easy to change the number of boosts on the characters.

Thanks! I'm contemplating making a web application for these kinds of calculations (assuming one doesn't already exist) and I want to make sure I understand all the mechanics.

You're welcome, let me know it somethig still is unclear.

[Valezra]

[QUOTE=Yargore;2307217]

Advocating? I already said I used that assumption originally. Why are you yelling again?

Why do you complain about me using 100% boost in the calc that's made to compare you yuor 100% boost calc?
I really don't get that.



What is it that I'm ignoring? Please tell me.
Using 100% powersurge is not unrealistic. If you're talking about 100% haste boost you should know that the one and only reason why I made a 100% haste boost calc was because you made one.
Comparing 53% monster to 100% Punisher is not exaclty fair now is it?

I called you a hypocrit for saying that I didn't realise that using 100% haste boost was unrealistic when the only calc you have posted in using 100% haste boost.
I said many times that it was inaccurate and not realistic. So i don't know where you got that I believed that it was from? Care to explain?

And the merry-go-round continues. You are basically just asking me to repeat myself without end now. ::bored::

tip - "Hypocrite" <--- notice the "e" at the end.

Val

[Yargore]

And the merry-go-round continues. You are basically just asking me to repeat myself without end now. ::bored::

tip - "Hypocrite" <--- notice the "e" at the end.

Val

Oh noes, I made a spelling error!

Now I found that you have changed the calc in the OP be for average of 5 minutes. That's great. It's the exact same as I use for all my calcs.
Except for one, that I did because you asked me to, then you come here and bash me for making a 100% haste boost calc.

See here:

Instead of me doing all the math why don't YOU show us the exact math to reach 548 DPS and 490 DPS. It is my opinion that the responsibility is on you to prove your build's DPS.

Before you attacked me and said that I think 548 is an accurate DPS number I said this:

548 DPS is what the monster will have during the hasteboost, I know that is not an accurate estimation of a characters DPS and that's what I've been trying to tell you.

Your calc showed the DPS during the 20 seconds haste boost is active, but that doesn't give the full picture now does it?

You have to understand that me and AO doesn't count with haste boost on all the time, we get the average attacks per 5 minutes using a specific amount of haste boosts for each build.

I must say that i got very surprised when you said this:

Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

It made me wonder if you actually have been reading your own thread?

[Valezra]

Oooo! I wanna snip and paste my own selected text of this thread to prove some obscure point. Oh, wait... no I don't.

Did anyone else hear the sounds of Yargore punching the air?

PS - You spelled it wrong at least 3 times which shows you don't know how to spell the word. I'm not the spelling police but spelling the same word wrong at least three times?... ::

Val