WF Wiz/Rog Build advice

[Untfell]

Hiya,

Finally unlocked 32 point builds and was trying to decide what kind of character i would like to play. Currently i am sorta taken with the idea of a WF wizard/rogue. Can help out with traps and chests, self heal, buff, CC, basically do a whole bunch of stuff depending on the situation.

Below is the first draft of my build with some thoughts I have been tossing around.

Can't make up my mind how important Spell penetration is. Ideally...I would have Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen. and a school focus. Atm I have taken Spell Pen. and max'd out the enhancement line.

Not too sure what kind of (unbuffed) numbers I need to be seeing on my DD, OL and Search skills. Do I need Nimble Fingers?

Is SF: UMD a waste of time?

What metamagics are going to be good on a build such as this? I've pretty much taken a stock standard selection of meta's, with the addition of Quicken (I am not exactly sure why Quicken is so good, something to do with Quicken self-heals...is there an animation delay on regular repair spells?)

Spell points: I would personally consider the Mental Toughness line a waste on a pure caster, but hybrids seem like they might struggle abit on this front.

Comments welcome.

Ok, thanks for your time.

-Sweom

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(2 Rogue \ 14 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 184
Spell Points: 921 
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 14
Will: 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         20                    22
Intelligence         18                    25
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               3                     3
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         7                    26
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        8                    29
Haggle                2                     2
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  3                     3
Listen               -2                    -2
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock             3                    21
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                8                    11
Search                8                    27
Spot                  2                     2
Swim                  3                     3
Tumble                3                     3
Use Magic Device      2                    11

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Open Lock I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Concentration I
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I


Level 4 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force I


Level 5 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation II


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Force I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II


Level 7 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II


Level 8 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force II
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation III


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Nimble Fingers
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Force II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Heighten Spell
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Wizard Force Manipulation IV


Level 13 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Force III


Level 14 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence III


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Force III


Level 16 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III

[doppleganger]

Hiya,

Can't make up my mind how important Spell penetration is. Ideally...I would have Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen. and a school focus. Atm I have taken Spell Pen. and max'd out the enhancement line.

Given that spell penetration is based on your caster level and you are 2 levels behind pure casters, I would take both spell pen feats. The school focus feat, not as important in my opinion.

Not too sure what kind of (unbuffed) numbers I need to be seeing on my DD, OL and Search skills.

see thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173623

Do I need Nimble Fingers?

No

Is SF: UMD a waste of time?

Deleted my previous comment, made no sense at all...

All I will say is if its important to you to be able cast Heal scrolls on fleshies, then I suppose yes, you could take SF:UMD. Else...

What metamagics are going to be good on a build such as this? I've pretty much taken a stock standard selection of meta's, with the addition of Quicken (I am not exactly sure why Quicken is so good, something to do with Quicken self-heals...is there an animation delay on regular repair spells?)?

I dont have quicken on my wiz/rogue yet and must admit I wish I had it from time to time. Quickened spells cannot be interrupted.

Spell points: I would personally consider the Mental Toughness line a waste on a pure caster, but hybrids seem like they might struggle abit on this front.

Given that wizards are already struggling compared to sorcs regarding mana, and given that losing some wizard levels is impacting this even more, I would say that you should try to get every little bit of spell point as you can, and take both Mental Toughness feats. But thats just me.

I also noticed the 20 starting CON, this is way overboard in my opinion. Might want to put some points in Wisdom to help out your Will Save, Greater Command is really annoying...

[Untfell]

Thx for the advice. took it onboard and this is what I have rolled:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.00
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 16 True Neutral Warforged Male
(2 Rogue \ 14 Wizard) 
Hit Points: 152
Spell Points: 1029 
BAB: 8\8\13
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 15
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength              8                     8
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence         18                    26
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma             10                    10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance              -1                    -1
Bluff                 0                     0
Concentration         5                    23
Diplomacy             0                     0
Disable Device        8                    28
Haggle                0                     0
Heal                  1                     1
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            0                     0
Jump                 -1                    -1
Listen                1                     1
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock             3                    21
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                4                     8
Search                8                    28
Spot                  1                     1
Swim                 -1                    -1
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      4                    12

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 4 (Wizard)


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Wizard)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Wizard)

Have 28 spare skill points at 1st lvl not showing here, i just sorta dumped them wherever.

Thx again.

- Sweom

[unlimitedadventures]

i have a wiz/rogue question also

ive noticed that in your build you have open lock skill with points in it.

do you need open locks if you have the wizard knock spell?

thxs

[honkuimushi]

Your Knock DC is your caster level + your Casting Ability Mod. So if you have a 30 Int as an 18th level Wizard, your DC would be 28. There are some locks with DCs over 40 and lower level locks in particular can be hard to Knock at level.

You can get an Item for a +15 bonus plus +5 thieves' tools for another + 7 so your sttarting bonus will be 22. Add a wand of Cat's Grace for +1(8 dex) and Greater Heroism for +4. That's 27. Now add +1 for the Voice. That's 28. So not counting any actual skill ranks, your OL skill is as good as Knock.

Now with Tomes and enhancements, you can probably get to 34 Int and maybe up to 36. With max gear, you might even get it to 38. That would get you an extra 2-4 points. But you can also get an extra 2 points from your skill boost. And 4 points at level 1 shouldn't be a sacrifice. In fact, it will probably be hard to not waste skill points at level 1.

So even with minimal investment, your OL skill will rival your Knock DC. Now consider the costs of using each. A Knock costs 15 spell points. Not so bad if you get it on the first go, but it can add up on a difficult lock. And if you have to try for a 20, it can take a fair amount of time and SP. On the other hand, a failed skill check costs 1 tool. Tools stack to 50, you need them for DD and +5s are fairly common. At worst, +4s are buyable with Free Agent favor at a very low price.

So in conlusion, Putting 5-10 points in OL and grabbing an item will likely be both cheaper in terms of resources and more effective than relying on Knock.

[gorloch]

Is SF: UMD a waste of time?

I would say yes. WOuld be alot mroe useful to drop them into concentraion/rogues skill. UMD is based off charisma which isn't going to be all that high on a wizzy.


PIXA

[Tickler]

Hiya,

Finally unlocked 32 point builds and was trying to decide what kind of character i would like to play. Currently i am sorta taken with the idea of a WF wizard/rogue. Can help out with traps and chests, self heal, buff, CC, basically do a whole bunch of stuff depending on the situation.

Below is the first draft of my build with some thoughts I have been tossing around.

Can't make up my mind how important Spell penetration is. Ideally...I would have Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen. and a school focus. Atm I have taken Spell Pen. and max'd out the enhancement line.

Not too sure what kind of (unbuffed) numbers I need to be seeing on my DD, OL and Search skills. Do I need Nimble Fingers?

Is SF: UMD a waste of time?

What metamagics are going to be good on a build such as this? I've pretty much taken a stock standard selection of meta's, with the addition of Quicken (I am not exactly sure why Quicken is so good, something to do with Quicken self-heals...is there an animation delay on regular repair spells?)

Spell points: I would personally consider the Mental Toughness line a waste on a pure caster, but hybrids seem like they might struggle abit on this front.

Comments welcome.

Ok, thanks for your time.

-Sweom

I have a WF Wiz/Rouge that I am very satisfied with.
Spell Penetration - Unless you plan to be a blaster (which I don't reccomend with the limited Wizard spell pool), you are going to want to max this line so that your crowd control and enchantments land. Take both feats and the full enhancement line.

Rouge DCs - At level 16 I still only have 4 ranks in open lock. While I won't be able to unlock really difficult chests, +15 OL gloves, GH, Skill boost, etc. allow me to unlock most things in the game. I've never needed to carry the knock spell. As for DD and Search, I've never blown up a trap box or not found a box - if you keep these maxed you'll have more than enough to handle just about everything but the Cabal Elite Trap.

UMD - This build could do without UMD, but if you really want to be as versatile as you can - being able to throw a heal scroll on a WF wizard is impressive. Your teammates will appreciate the healing when things get rough. Don't forget that a healscroll will cure you of feeblemind too. Being able to bypass item requirements has its advantages too.

Starting Stats - Max Int of course. High con is nice but you may want to consider dropping that 20 down to a 19 and put the points you gain into strength or charisma. I went with a 14 base strength on my build - With divine power clickies and a bloodstone equipped I can actually vorpol stuff or help beat it down with a Mineral-Mineral Greataxe. You may want the option to attack so you can preserve spell points. If you do plan to melee, pick up some balance if you can.

Feats - Skill focus UMD isn't needed by level 20. If you want more fire power, take both Maximize and Empower, otherwise drop empower and get two spell focuses to land your CC more often. Quicken is essential. Highten is probably your best meta. Insightful Reflexes is great, don't take it until you take that 2nd rouge level. Make sure you take the Toughness feat - the extra toughness enhancements that go along with this will put you well past the 400hp mark at level 20.

Mental Toughness - If you won't be meleeing at all, then find room for this feat - otherwise you'll find yourself sitting around for large portions of the quest.

If you have anymore questions - look me up in game on Lokdown or send me a PM. Good Luck.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

I currently have a WF 2 rogue/14 Wizard. I grabbed the feat SF:UMD as my character melees a ton. Not everyone will/does go this route, but this is my build.

The UMD is high enough to allow me to equip any item currently in game, which is cool when you come across a nice set of RR rapiers, etc.

I also have quicken as the need to repair/heal yourself comes in very handy. I also strongly recommend Enlightened Reflexs when you can get it. Nothing like ramping up your reflex saves based upon your INT.

There are a ton a different ways you can go with this build. I personally decided to veer away from the mainstream and he will end up 6 Rogue/14 Wizard at cap. This is due to the fact that I like to melee and will be taking the 1st part of Assassin.

I have a couple of other capped casters, but this guy is just a blast to play. As a for instance: Ran him through Kobald the other night. Evasion and self repairs helped him kick the Kobald and Fire Ele's butts without any deaths. I then ran my Drow Sorc through and she got totally owned as she pulled entirely too much aggro.

You "may not" end up doing the same sort of straight spell based DPS as a pure caster, but the evasion and backstab abilities make it more than worthwhile in my book.

Best of luck no matter how you go, I'm quite positive you will enjoy this character.

[Riorik]

Given that spell penetration is based on your caster level and you are 2 levels behind pure casters, I would take both spell pen feats. The school focus feat, not as important in my opinion.

Partial disagreement. You're correct as far as you go, the difference is, it's the combination of your ability affect a target that you should look at. Even a 1 point DC difference can be regarded as very significant when attempting to affect a target - it's the reason why you try to max out your casting stat AND use heighten. Why do it half-azzed anyways if you don't have to. Wizards get enough feats that it's relatively easy to fit this in, too.

ive noticed that in your build you have open lock skill with points in it.
do you need open locks if you have the wizard knock spell?
thxs

So in conlusion, Putting 5-10 points in OL and grabbing an item will likely be both cheaper in terms of resources and more effective than relying on Knock.

This quote is a great answer - complete and the right theme. I would not assume that the current targets will always be the only targets. The Twilight Forge was the first place that showed up with doors or chests that couldn't be knocked. The Necropolis had the next. 10 points may be enough...but until you see the content, it may be wise to make sure you can get to at least a +50 if not +55 or +60 if you're not sacrificing something DEFINATELY useful like DD or UMD.

I would say yes. WOuld be alot mroe useful to drop them into concentraion/rogues skill. UMD is based off charisma which isn't going to be all that high on a wizzy.PIXA

This is just wrong for multiple reasons. Going to the OP and Quicken:

1) Concentration is something like a base 15+damage taken check to avoid interruption (don't quote me...it's very possible I'm off a few points). In my experience, a concentration score of 30-40 is often sufficient, depending on play style & skill, to avoid interruption most of the time.

2) Do not make the mistake of thinking that your Rogard (Wizard/Rogue) is going to be good at melee. You'll probably not be and attempting to focus on it is an example of spreading yourself too thinly and being mediocre at everything.

Quicken costs a few spell points but makes it so that as long as you're not dead, you will complete your spell (and it'll be faster casting). Doesn't matter what your concentration score might be...you won't be interrupted.

UMD, on the other hand - it's incredibly easy with a high intelligence multiclass Rogue to get a score, even with a LOW starting Charisma, more than sufficient to UMD just about everything in the game. I have a 'retired' Rogard that hits UMD39 without boosting with a starting Charisma of 8. The character is not completely maxed out on potential - no exceptional stat bonuses and only +2 from an exceptional charisma skills bonus (I could get +5 higher, total at level 16.

It is simply completely and totally untrue that you couldn't get your UMD high enough.

[Phidius]

...10 points may be enough...but until you see the content, it may be wise to make sure you can get to at least a +50 if not +55 or +60 if you're not sacrificing something DEFINATELY useful like DD or UMD.

Totally agree - until they give us a complete respec option, that is.

...
2) Do not make the mistake of thinking that your Rogard (Wizard/Rogue) is going to be good at melee. You'll probably not be and attempting to focus on it is an example of spreading yourself too thinly and being mediocre at everything.
...

It's quite possible to be a X Wizard/2 rogue, and be good at melee - it just takes a lot of determination and commitment, which most people are unwilling to commit to their wizard. I can't blame them, though, as it's an uphill battle against the normal PUG mentality. Heck, I've even been known to discriminate against them

Quicken costs a few spell points but makes it so that as long as you're not dead, you will complete your spell (and it'll be faster casting). Doesn't matter what your concentration score might be...you won't be interrupted.
....

There are so many ways that even Quicken fails you - being tripped for example. It so frustrating to be on your back knowing that a press of a button would save your asphault if you could just get to your feet. Of course, Concentration wouldn't help here, either.

However, Concentration comes in very handy when you find yourself reduced to scrolls, as Quicken does nothing for them.

[Riorik]

There are so many ways that even Quicken fails you - being tripped for example.

I actually keep both up - Quicken feat and a decent enough concentration to survive a lot of stuff.

It's quite possible to be a X Wizard/2 rogue, and be good at melee - it just takes a lot of determination and commitment, which most people are unwilling to commit to their wizard. I can't blame them, though, as it's an uphill battle against the normal PUG mentality. Heck, I've even been known to discriminate against them

It's very likely that your definition of "good at melee" isn't even in the same ballpark with my definition of "good at melee". I've experimented with builds that were fabulous between 7th & 12th level (back when the cap was lower) and they did great, but they're not even remotely close to second tier now.

To do it properly, you *must* start with the stats & commit feats to being a solid melee. It's possible, but it requires sacrifices in terms of being able to be a solid crowd control wizard. In essence, it violates the premise of this thread. The fact is, equipment only goes so far...you can only stretch a build so far. Often, you end up with a character mediocre at everything. Often, the player doesn't even realize this.