Love for non-TWF Paladins

[Borror0]

The numbers I provided are not build specific.

That's the problem!

18 human ranger/1 rogue/1 monk:
10 Base
+8 Armor
+1 Alchemical
+4 Shield
+9 Dexterity
+8 Wisdom
+5 Protection
+7 Dodge (IR+CR)
+1 Dodge feat
+1 Two Weapon Defense
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
+3 Favored Defense
66 unbuffed AC
+5 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
+2 Luck
74 self buffed AC
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Dodge
84 buffed

The ability scores used were:

• Dexterity: 15 base + 4 tome + 3 Ranger's Dexterity III + 6 item = 28 Dex
• Wisdom: 14 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 Exceptional Wisdom +1 Exceptional Wisdom = 26 Wis

20 dwarf fighter:
10 Base
+15 Armor
+1 Alchemical
+9 Shield
+1 Alchemical
+7 Dex**
+1 Dodge feat
+5 Protection
+5 Dodge (CG+CR)
+4 Insight
+3 Stalwart Defender
+2 Stalwart Defender set
+5 Combat Expertise
68 unbuffed AC*
+3 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
72 self-buffed AC*
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Dodge
+2 Luck
+2 Natural Armor
86 buffed AC*

*+4 if in Defensive Stance
**Could be higher if found valuable

The S&B fighter has higher AC than the TWF rng/mnk. The problems are elsewhere.

[Angelus_dead]

The only difference there is that TWF can reaching higher numbers but that will change in module 9

Oh, and mod9 will reduce TWF AC a little, because you can no longer stack Tempest and Shield wand.

[TechNoFear]

Dexterity: 15 base + 4 tome + 3 Ranger's Dexterity III + 6 item = 28 Dex

The TWF can also get another tier 3 GS exceptional stat bonus over the fighter (2 rings and 2 GS weps). This could be +2 Dex for another 1 AC.

I would assume most will have the Tempest set and the Ninja ring (total +6 Wis, +6 Dex, +1 exc Dex, +1 exc Wis and 2 tier 3 upgrades)

The S&B fighter has higher AC than the TWF rng/mnk. The problems are elsewhere.

I assume +4 Shield is actually +4 Tempest 3.

You missed 'Remlins Step' (+2 dodge) only for the TWF.

+7 Dex** [**Could be higher if found valuable]

Any increase should also be reflected in the TWFs AC, if we are keeping both to the same Dex. [it is actually 1 build pt more expensive to get the dwarf to 14 starting Dex than the TWF to 15]



So in stance (moving at 50%) the armor wearer has 2-3 higher AC than the TWF, otherwise the TWF has the same or higher AC.

Isn't that a problem?

[Yargore]

That's the problem!

18 human ranger/1 rogue/1 monk:
10 Base
+8 Armor
+1 Alchemical
+4 Shield
+9 Dexterity
+8 Wisdom
+5 Protection
+7 Dodge (IR+CR)
+1 Centered
+1 Dodge feat
+1 Two Weapon Defense
+4 Insight
+5 Combat Expertise
+3 Favored Defense
67 unbuffed AC
+5 Natural Armor
+1 Dodge
+2 Luck
75 self buffed AC
+6 Aura of Good
+4 Dodge
85 buffed

The ability scores used were:

• Dexterity: 15 base + 4 tome + 3 Ranger's Dexterity III + 6 item = 28 Dex
• Wisdom: 14 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 Exceptional Wisdom +1 Exceptional Wisdom = 26 Wis

Just a few things about the AC breakdown.
You don't get centered bonus from 1 monk level.
If you want to be build specific, what ranger would take both TWD and CE? It's not a good move.



While the S&B do have higher AC, the ranger can reach almost as high while still having 400+ DPS, evasion, epic self healing and some usefull spells.

[Borror0]

The TWF can also get another tier 3 GS exceptional stat bonus over the fighter (2 rings and 2 GS weps). This could be +2 Dex for another 1 AC.

No, it would not. Pretending that is the case is demonstrating a poor knowledge about Green Steel weapons.

There is no way to get +2 Exception Dexterity on a Mineral II weapon.

I assume +4 Shield is actually +4 Tempest 3.

Tempest III actually gives a +4 Shield bonus to Armor Class therefore that is the right way to present it.

You missed 'Remlins Step' (+2 dodge) only for the TWF.

The item description says you are wrong:

Any increase should also be reflected in the TWFs AC, if we are keeping both to the same Dex.

Both the same Dexterity? How does that make sense!

The two builds have different needs and the rng/mnk needs to spread himself thinner than the fighter.

[it is actually 1 build pt more expensive to get the dwarf to 14 starting Dex than the TWF to 15]

If your S&B character does not have the Dex for GTWF, reroll it now.

Simply put, there are too many situations where being stuck in S&B is not carrying your own weight and using THF simply not that attractive. Therefore, if your S&B character can't grab TWf, reroll it because you're a burden on your party.

So in stance (moving at 50%) the armor wearer has 2-3 higher AC than the TWF.

Isn't that a problem?

The gap is of 5 points.

It's a problem, because as Yargore pointed out, rangers get a lot of other stuff and, as I pointed to you earlier, being S&B characters are stuck with lower DPS but it's not a problem for the reason you originally point out which is why I argued with you.

You don't get centered bonus from 1 monk level.

That's changed with Module 9?

If you want to be build specific, what ranger would take both TWD and CE? It's not a good move.

Well, TWD is a possible pre-req for Tempest III so it's not really a big cost.

While the S&B do have higher AC, the ranger can reach almost as high while still having 400+ DPS, evasion, epic self healing and some usefull spells.

I agree. That is why I said that the problem is not about higher Armor Class.

[Angelus_dead]

Simply put, there are too many situations where being stuck in S&B is not carrying your own weight and using THF simply not that attractive. Therefore, if your S&B character can't grab TWf, reroll it because you're a burden on your party.

That's good advice for a Fighter, but others just won't have enough feats.

[Borror0]

That's good advice for a Fighter, but others just won't have enough feats.

1. Toughness
3. Power Attack
6. Combat Expertise
9. Improved Critical
12. Two-Weapon Fighting
15. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
18. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Then, toss in two levels of fighter for Tower Shield Mastery and two of Extend, Dodge, Skill Focus: Intimidate and Khopesh Proficiency.

As far as I can see, 18p/2f really is the best paladin tank build there is.

[Yargore]

That's changed with Module 9?

Currently you need 2 monk levels to get the centered AC bonus.

[Borror0]

Currently you need 2 monk levels to get the centered AC bonus.

Oh, right. Forgot about that. Changed it in the post.

[TechNoFear]

No, it would not. Pretending that is the case is demonstrating a poor knowledge about Green Steel weapons.

There is no way to get +2 Exception Dexterity on a Mineral II weapon.

Please ensure you have understood the post before resorting to insults please.

I did not say the Dex was on the wep. I said the TWF got an extra tier 3 upgrade.

I assumed we both knew the weps would be Min2 (+2 exc Wis and +4 insight) you had already included. (+4 insight on the S&B wep)

With upgraded Tempest and Ninja rings you can get +9 to both Dex, Wis.

Tempest III actually gives a +4 Shield bonus to Armor Class therefore that is the right way to present it.

Sure but as the Shield spell could also be +4 Shield, which as A_D pointed out no longer counts.

The item description says you are wrong:

Sorry my bad.

Both the same Dexterity? How does that make sense!

From your original post I thought we were comparing builds using the same Dex.

If your S&B character does not have the Dex for GTWF, reroll it now.

I used 14 as it is the minimum needed to get TWF (with +1 tome) and later with +3 for GTWF.

it's not a problem for the reason you originally point out which is why I argued with you.

Actually you started posting about fighter PrEs in a paladin TWF v S&B discussion.